not trying to be rude or anything
but why are men better than woman in esports ? there's no " muscles " involved
there should be a study on this.
( you guys are seeing loud jelly right ? )
*no trying to be transphobic also, i'm just curious what the other girls that are being destroyed by her would claim what's the reason she is better than them
Sorry but I don’t understand what u mean by more “competition = higher skill” in this context. Are u talking about scrim quality or player quality?
Because honestly? The top few GC players r actually pretty skilled mechanically. If you’re talking about scrims or whatnot you have to remember that gc teams can play vs anyone, not just gc and I’m sure they have better scrims compared to ur avg tier 3 team. Any tourny a normal team can join, an orged up team like v1 can definitely join as well (challengers, knights, astral clash etc)
Not trying to belittle female players, just giving my opinion
there was this girl here in brazil that used to play with the boys in crossfire
mystique
https://imgur.com/a/j9Q66WI
https://imgur.com/a/r9QZbte
Didn't a girl from KRU female team play in T2 LATAM with other males and top fragged against Leviatan.
Players like Mimi and these other players could definitely make it into the ascension league in good teams. Franchising might be a stretch though.
Even the worst franchised players might be better than players like Mimi.
Competitive games has been more of a men thing for years. Still is if you consider the fact that many women are harassed by just talking in some games out there (even in Valorant sometimes...) so many of them don't talk or don't even play.
Women just need time to grow talent among them and soon we'll have great T1 women players.
I think the whole "boys > girls" view is an easy cop out, given there's no way it can be proven, this has also been used a lot in sports like football in the past (given the fact women and men was separated in sports and e-sports (stupid idea imo) given the entire IDEA of sports is to be COMPETITIVE, the only sports i agree is where genetics or things like testosterone, muscle, strength, etc is important, since that's often based a lot on a specific person I don't see a reason why women and men cannot just compete against each other in specifically valorant, however I like how female and male teams can take part in champions tour quals, it's good. just like how in the past everyone said woman cannot do blank, and men cannot do blank even though when we gave them the chance to do it, they both actually did it with no problems, so this was disproven.
if I had to give a logical reasoning for maybe why, I would bring up the fact of "woman are preconditioned to like blank more" and so are men, which often doesn't include stuff like fighting games for women and stuff which involves violence in general, obviously there could be an insanely good girl to come in and destroy everyone, no one is doubting that (imo right now, the closest example would be florescent, I've seen them competing and holding their own with men) , same as there could be a guy to dominate in a female industry given it's his thing, etc
In conclusion or a TL:DR
The way to prove this would be putting women vs men and see which wins (imo), and i'm not saying "oh they win a single match, i mean a fair amount of data or games to actually say "ok 8/10 times blank won, i think that's pretty telling"
and given women were able to compete with men, i think it would be better generally for the women and the men's game, given women may give some CREATIVE ASS IDEAS, or how they may think up things which others have never thought of before
I think someone like Florescent proves females CAN compete with males, but it may be an uphill battle given some genetic features which we don't know of yet
I have gone through multiple research papers and peer reviewed articles. They do show a physiological difference, you cannot dispute that but the difference is so small it's negligible in the grand scheme of things. They also are not accurate as they have do not have accurately represented subjects i.e - have people from an esport backgrounds with similar age groups.
These are some of the papers I've gone through, you can look at the data yourself
[ Reaction Time ]
"Significant difference was found between RT of male and female medical students (P < 0.001)"
Citation: Jain A, Bansal R, Kumar A, Singh KD. A comparative study of visual and auditory reaction times on the basis of gender and physical activity levels of medical first year students. Int J Appl Basic Med Res. 2015 May-Aug;5(2):124-7. doi: 10.4103/2229-516X.157168. PMID: 26097821; PMCID: PMC4456887.
"Males were faster than females cross age groups, RT tasks, and visits."
Citation: Fozard JL, Vercryssen M, Reynolds SL, Hancock PA, Quilter RE. Age differences and changes in reaction time: the Baltimore Longitudinal Study of Aging. J Gerontol. 1994 Jul;49(4):P179-89. doi: 10.1093/geronj/49.4.p179. PMID: 8014399.
"Males have shorter motion discrimination thresholds than females"
Citation: Murray, Scott O., et al. Sex Differences in Visual Motion Processing. Current Biology, vol. 28, no. 17, 2018, doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2018.06.014.
[ Hand-eye Coordination ]
"However, highly consistent differences in eye-hand coordination were evidenced by a larger temporal lag between hand motion and target motion in women."
Citation: Mathew, J., Masson, G.S. & Danion, F.R. Sex differences in visuomotor tracking. Sci Rep 10, 11863 (2020). doi: 10.1038/s41598-020-68069-0
"These findings, supported by previous research, highlight that young males are more precisely hand-eye coordinated than young female students statistically significant higher."
Citation: Chraif, Mihaela, and Mihai Aniţei. “Gender Differences in Motor Coordination at Young Students at Psychology.” International Journal of Social Science and Humanity, vol. 3, no. 2, 2013, pp. 147–150, 10.7763/ijssh.2013.v3.215. Accessed 30 Jan. 2021.
[ Spatial Ability ]
"Sex differences had much smaller effect sizes but were evident, with females outperforming males on attention, word and face memory, reasoning speed, and all social cognition tests and males outperforming females in spatial processing and sensorimotor and motor speed."
Citation: Gur, R. C., Richard, J., Calkins, M. E., Chiavacci, R., Hansen, J. A., Bilker, W. B., Loughead, J., Connolly, J. J., Qiu, H., Mentch, F. D., Abou-Sleiman, P. M., Hakonarson, H., & Gur, R. E. (2012). Age group and sex differences in performance on a computerized neurocognitive battery in children age 8−21. Neuropsychology, 26(2), 251–265. doi: 10.1037/a0026712
" Study 1 showed that in behavior performance, males outperformed females in both large-scale and small-scale spatial ability, but the effect size of the gender difference in large-scale spatial ability is significantly greater than that in small-scale spatial ability."
Citation: Yuan, Li, et al. “Gender Differences in Large-Scale and Small-Scale Spatial Ability: A Systematic Review Based on Behavioral and Neuroimaging Research.” Frontiers in Behavioral Neuroscience, vol. 13, 18 June 2019, 10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128.
[ Competitive Ability/Pressure Tolerance ]
"Overall, these findings suggest that men were significantly more socially motivated in the presence of another competitor, at least in terms of attention in a physical effort task.", "Furthermore, male participants showed faster RTs and greater sustained effort as a result of a competitive environment, suggesting that males may be more affected by competition in physical effort tasks."
Citation: DiMenichi BC, Tricomi E. The power of competition: Effects of social motivation on attention, sustained physical effort, and learning. Front Psychol. 2015 Sep 1;6:1282. doi: 10.3389/fpsyg.2015.01282. PMID: 26388801; PMCID: PMC4554955.
"The analysis takes advantage of a major education reform in Ontario that exogenously increases competition for university grades. Comparing students prereform and postreform using rich administrative data, I find that male average grades and the proportion of male students graduating "on time" increased relative to females. Further, the evidence indicates that these changes were due to increased relative effort rather than self-selection."
Citation: Morin, Louis-Philippe. “Do Men and Women Respond Differently to Competition? Evidence from a Major Education Reform.” Journal of Labor Economics, vol. 33, no. 2, 2015, pp. 443–91. JSTOR, doi: 10.1086/678519. Accessed 7 Jan. 2023.
[ Learning Style/Knowledge Difference ]
"According to the results, male students preferred to use the kinesthetic learning style more than females, while, female students preferred the aural learning style."
Citation: Sarabi-Asiabar A, Jafari M, Sadeghifar J, Tofighi S, Zaboli R, Peyman H, Salimi M, Shams L. The relationship between learning style preferences and gender, educational major and status in first year medical students: a survey study from iran. Iran Red Crescent Med J. 2014 Dec 27;17(1):e18250. doi: 10.5812/ircmj.18250. PMID: 25763269; PMCID: PMC4341501.
Adding on - I Look at the standard deviation tables and the characteristics of the dependent and independent variables. The difference is pretty small, though in some examples it is large, I wouldn't see how that difference in reaction time would necessarily put a man at a significant advantage.
I agree that men have faster reaction time on average however, the difference isn't that influential in the field of esports. If you were talking about a sport where reaction time is very important say- F1 racing, then you could conclude that there are more men in that field due to that statistic.
Plus, I also don't see how physiological differences are even arguable in the field of esports just due to the diversity of players. Different age groups, different lifestyles etc etc.
My point is you cannot say for sure that men are better than women in FPS because of physical differences.
IMO, it's due to social differences.
A good way to describe the current status of Female FPS Teams is to the condition of LCS teams in NA and Europe. NA and EU teams often get stomped by their Asian counterparts. Do the Asian pros have something in their genetics that makes them exceptionally better than the others?
Then again you cannot know for sure because researchers still think funding an esport-based study is kind of a waste of time and money. So unless you have a research paper covering all fronts you cannot say for sure it's the difference in physiology that determines skill.
Not a solid foundation to make an objective conclusion
Competitive differences based on sex are not universal and can be influenced by multiple factors, including cultural norms and individual differences. While there is evidence to suggest that males are, on average, more competitive than females in certain contexts, there is research which shows that females can be just as competitive as males, especially in contexts where competition is encouraged or rewarded.
So it's unlikely that an average male would be more competitive than the average female GIVEN that they are raised under similar sociocultural ethics and norms.
So it's unlikely that an average male would be more competitive than the average female GIVEN that they are raised under similar sociocultural ethics and norms.
We literally have all the data that hints otherwise. Not a single biological woman has ever made it far in any game that requires fast reflexes. By your logic, there must have been at least few female outliers already, after two decades of esports.
Men are born to be more aggressive and competitive in regard to sports/esports, as they have a lot more testosterone and drive to beat up opponents.
You would be right if we are talking in the context of physical sports. In the context of esports and even careers, it doesnt make that big of a difference.
By your logic, there must have been at least a few female outliers already, after two decades of esports.
And we are starting to see that now in Valorant, I hope you realise that we are seeing women for the first time in 20 years engage with an FPS game now more than ever.
You cannot use previous data to make conclusions - I have already explained that in my previous comments.
We literally have all the data that hints otherwise. Not a single biological woman has ever made it far in any game that requires fast reflexes.
No we don't. Social and cultural norms are built into decades of history, you cannot remove that effect in a matter of a few years.
If we want an actual accurate conclusion we would have to have to take present analytics as a control and have literally 2 children artificially raised in a society where men and women were equal since the conception of human society on all fronts.
Obviously, that is impossible.
What we do have now is more and more women catching up and dominating in fields comprised of men in the past 50 years.
Why? Social and cultural norms have become more progressive and encouraging for women. Stigmas based on gender are being minimalised. See how there is a positive correlation?
EDIT: i retract dominating in fields. Men are still dominant in most fields but you are seeing a considerable increase in breakthroughs and career achievements by women
they literally are heavily disparaged against in the chess community laurus you should be better educated on this. A good lot of the chess community is openly sexist lmao.
It's also funny you mention the chess world, cause there exists a clear example of the fact that if u were to raise women (or at least try your best to, whatever that amts to)apart from these socio-cultural norms they would show more competitveness.
Judith and susan polgar were both raised by their dad (psychologist) to become chess machines i.e this is as close to a controlled environment as we will get, and they both went on to break actual records in the scene, with judith beating fischer's record for youngest GM , and remaining in the top 100 TILL she retired
**Yes, women were discouraged from playing chess for literal centuries my guy.
And I have formally debated this topic multiple times.
Im straight up going to copy-paste my debate article LMFAO.**
*The issue of underrepresentation of women in upper ranks is a multifaceted one that has several contributing factors. One such factor is the historical and persistent gender biases that have prevailed in the chess community. For a long time, chess was a male-dominated sport, and women had fewer opportunities to compete at the highest level. This may have contributed to the creation of a culture that discouraged women from pursuing chess as a career or even from being given the same opportunities as their male counterparts.
Another factor that could be responsible is the societal and cultural norms that tend to discourage girls and women from engaging in chess. This could include stereotypes about women's logical and strategic abilities, as well as the societal pressure to focus on other traditional interests.
Furthermore, there may be structural hurdles that make it challenging for women to attain the highest levels of chess. For instance, women may face barriers to accessing resources such as top-quality training and coaching, or they may encounter discrimination and harassment within the chess community.*
Look at the volleyball, probably volleyball is the most popular sport among woman. When we look at volleyball we can easily see men are better than women in this sport, there are a lot of great female volleyball players but none of them is at mans level
They have funding, support but they are not good as man so it is not social problem and i think it is kinda same in esports, look at mimi she has been playing fps games for years, her teams have beaten by tier 3, tier 4 teams and we say she is best female player. We must see there is a big skill gap between males and females
Not a valid comparison because volleyball is a physical sport. If you compare physical sports the average man will be better than the average woman. That is irrefutable.
The Mimi argument is invalid because you are talking about 1 single person. Tac FPS is a team game and no matter how good you are, if you don't have a good team environment, you are bound to not beat other teams.
How many female CS players were given the opportunity to actually compete in fully funded teams with a fully funded league?
CS was an incredibly toxic environment for normal players let alone women players and there were barely more than 20 reputable organisations with female rosters. When you have that small of a competitive pool where you are constantly scrimming with others on a sub par level compared to their male counterparts then how would you expect them to improve and beat even t3 or t4 teams?
There was a complete lack of competitive encouragement and environment and that was perfectly reflected in the communities constant misogyny.
Even now in valorant it is rampant - look at the comments under this post- https://www.instagram.com/p/CpgJTWOLLEq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
reaction time is CRUCIAL in a game like VAL. i mentioned it in my post below, #126, but top pole vaulters have an average difference of 23ms between male and female reaction times. 23ms is an extra bullet in VAL.
that's the difference between a headshot and being dead, with literally no chance of reaction if we are in the case that the average male is competing against the average female.
flashbangs? not being able to react to agent-borne abilities is also an inherent disadvantage that comes with slower reaction times
bruh where the fuck were you in this thread this is by far the most well rounded post on the topic lol
https://www.vlr.gg/181451/people-dont-understand-what-game-changers-is-for
only true different is mindset
girls don't want to try hard on anything
https://twitter.com/yay/status/1563320144138743808
that why he's the best player in the world
theres no "women are good at cooking" rather its a job they are expected to do for their family as the man goes out to earn a living. women are not expected or even encouraged to earn financial benefit from their cooking. Being a chef in a commercial kitchen or even as a small time vendor (as seen in Asian countries) is completely different - it comes under going out and making a living - a category which has mostly been male dominated unless areas such as nurses, or even a gynecologist.
job itself doesnt discriminate or discourage but when a particular job is heavily skewed in population towards a particular gender/community - others feel harder to enter and survive the space - whether it is esports for women or being a elementary school teacher for men, these jobs can be done by anyone who is passionate about it and there is no biological disadvantage. Affirmative action such as a Challengers series for minority groups in esports helps ease the entry and survival of those who are genuinely interested in the profession, nobody is forcing anyone to play.
there is only one answer and it's legacy and societal shit
video games were geared to be a "boy" thing from the very beginning because of marketing and anachronistic world views
this lead to it becoming a notably male space which is already a massive barrier to entry if you want to play games as a girl
then COMPETITIVE games where you have to literally engage with the playerbase which is used to sexist humor thats totally normalized its even harder for them to get into esport titles
then the statistics kick in, now that you have all of these hurdles to get into gaming, the odds that the women who pass ALL of these obstacles end up grinding to a professional level is super low
biology has nothing to do with it
mindset has nothing to do with it
your question is same like
Why are there female and male eSport teams when there is nothing about physical differences in video games? right
i think its cuz Since video games started to be released it has been more of a male domain rather than female and also we as a boy Growing up, boys would talk about sports and video games and it was typically uncommon for girls to partake in these conversations much.
it the same in most traditional sports, not being rude or anything
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11160861/Arsenal-Women-suffer-5-0-defeat-boys-U15-closed-doors-friendly-London-Colney.html
talent pool is small, and women have never really had much infrastructure and support to grow in a male dominated scene so they are behind.
the top gc talents have tier 1 mechanics, but they dont have tier 1/2 teamplay. for teams like v1/g2, if they play in non-gc stuff they could potentially become formidable tier 2 teams, but it would take a while.
A study in 2014 showed that males and females have different advantages when playing games. The study finds that men navigate more efficiently through virtual environments and have greater spatial problem-solving efficiency (Tippett,2009). While women needed more time to adjust to the virtual world. Due to that most men prefer playing action and simulation games (Quaiser-Pohl, 2005) while females prefer logic and skill training games. Besides that, the male has a higher number of players and time spent on games compared to women. Spending around 284 min/week for males and 172 min/week for females (Chou, 2007). Apart from spending less time, females are less likely to play time-intensive games (Cohen, 2009); While men prefer online games. In conclusion, since the game that you're currently referring to is esport which is dominantly a game that is action/environmental. Men have higher advantages compared to women such as better virtual navigation skills and has a higher interest in that type of game compared to women which causes them to spend more time.
References:
Tippett, W.J., Lee, J. H., Mraz, R., Zakzanis, K. K., Snyder, P. J., Black, S. E. and Graham, S. J. 2009.
“Convergent Validity and Sex Differences in Healthy Elderly Adults for Performance on 3D Virtual
Reality Navigation Learning and 2D Hidden Maze Tasks,” Cyber Psychology & Behavior (12:2), pp.
169-174.
Chou, C. and Tsai, M.-J. 2007. “Gender differences in Taiwan high school students computer game
playing,” Computers in Human Behavior (23:1), pp. 812–824.
Cohen, A. M. 2009. “Closing the Gender Gap in Online Gaming,” THE FUTURIST (43:6), pp. 10.
Ducheneaut, N., Wen, M.-H., D., Yee, N. and Wadley, G. 2009. “Body and Mind: A Study of Avatar
Personalization in Three Virtual Worlds,” New Media Experiences (1), pp. 1151-1160.
Quaiser-Pohl, C., Geiser, C. and Lehmann, W. 2005. “The relationship between computer-game
preference, gender , and mental-rotation ability,” Personality and Individual Differences (40:3), pp.
609-619.
from my experience its more of a societal expectation which affected them as a whole. Women are expected to be more responsible than men, they are also expected to perform in school better than men. They are expected to not play video games which is seen as a distraction. basically they have to be perfect real life people + they have to be able to lead.
Even if you found a girl 50% of the games which is a lot, that would still make a 1/19 women/men ratio.
But anyway girls might do break the stereotype and start playing, but here is where the second factor comes in. How many girls do you who actually play video games from a young age? They might grow up and be like oh yeah I like video, but how many parents are they gonna give them video games to try when they’re kids, her friends are not playing, why would she play?
Yk what I mean? The causal population is growing a lot, but casual players are not the ones that are gonna end up competing, that’s a complete different type of player.
probably partially biological but only partially and the effect is much smaller than in traditional sports. the real reason is you cant become truly good at video games without playing since early childhood and little girls literally just dont play fps games. every val pro has played csgo or other fps game since like 9 years old lmfao how many 10 year old girls who play cs/val/any fps are there? way fewer than boys. and the reason they dont do that is def societal, kids are even more cliqueish than adults, girls aren't gonna do something that mostly boys do. edit: and regardless of the reason it's only more reasons to have female/gender inclusive leagues, just like traditional sports have women's leagues.
it's not a black and white issue.
people above saying "oh ya it's just because more guys play video games" or "oh ya it's just biological differences"... all of these factors combine together. sure, more guys play video games, and yeah, men are literally biologically advantaged in the most important factors in sports/esports: reaction time and muscle-building capability.
for those questioning the former, see here:
The mean fastest reaction times were 23 ms shorter in men than women (166 ms vs 189 ms, respectively)
but socially, yeah, if the same amount of women played video games and did so from childhood like most men do, sure, we'd probably get more top level females. but they'd likely still, on average, be worse than the average male. not saying it's not possible for there to be a female pro that stomps at the top level, but from a biological standpoint, it's less likely than for a male to do so.
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