Leo Faria doesn't make sense

#1

c4rrotstix

I just want to understand what Leo Faria was thinking when he and his team made this ascension system.

As a Tier 2 program, everyone can agree that there are not enough benefits for orgs to invest in, as we see from Acend leaving the Tier 2 system due to (I assume) concerns with money. The only TRUE reason that teams invest into Valorant Tier 2 is for a hope and a prayer that they will field the best team that their entire region has seen, and end up becoming ascended into Tier 1, where, I am going to admit, the rewards are INSANE for every org who gets into the system. However, this creates the dynamic of a massive carrot on a stick, which orgs are starting to wise up to, and are starting to leave because of how low the rewards are for every org who doesn't get ascended, causing many orgs to just leave Valorant.

Now, with the aspect of Tier 3 coming in, and the Premier system becoming a real thing, the entire system is going to start to fold in on itself. Leo Faria himself has said many times in many words that "We don't want slots in Valorant to be getting bought by orgs, we want the orgs to invest and earn the spot themselves with their old roster."

HOWEVER

With what happened with the Guard, we are going to eventually end up seeing orgs just stay out of Valorant until there is a proven roster, then buy that org for a tournament or two in the hope that they might win, then remove their investment. Now that we got the ruling that players who do not have an org can choose an org themselves to represent them, (G2 taking the place of TGRD), there is LITERALLY no reason for teams to invest in a team in Tier 2 before the 2nd stage of Valorant Tier 2, after we see what teams are actually good (see DarkZero/TTR).

Basically, Leo Faria and co's system of "We are going to disincentivize people buying spots in Valorant Tier 1" I believe will lead to:

Most purely profit based orgs (not DSG/MXS who have passion in their reason for investing) not investing in teams until the tournaments that they prove themselves in, or potentially even at or after Ascension.
If a team from Premier ends up winning Ascension, then an org will have effectively "bought" their spot into Tier 1 Valorant, rendering this entire system useless
Teams immediately dropping rosters after they fail (OXG), and letting the rosters play without a salary before coming back into the scene to try to swoop up a spot.

What is the upside to this system. Orgs will end up "buying" a spot in ascension even with the system they made to try to stop this effect, orgs will drop the scene due to very little incentives, players will have very minimal salaries through the entire year until an org picks them back up if they prove themselves, and the quality of the game will go down due to less and less potential pros finding it viable to actually even try to pursue a career in Valorant.

This is a very Americas centric post, because I don't have much knowledge on other systems, but I do hear that Europe's system is really weird and Pacific is always hating Jake Sin (the organizer guy) for their Tier 2 system, so please fill in any gaps I would have had with examples or situations from Pacific, Europe, and China's Tier 2 system, as I am SURE there are more examples to back these ideas up. Please Leo Faria change something.

#2

dort

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allat

#3

c4rrotstix

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shut up fart

dogshit user who doesn't understand his own org would drop everyone and leave the moment they could like they did to dhokla and co

and I want NRG to win

#5

dort

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still. allat

#4

Nef0r0

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the entire purpose of tier 2 is to be the source for tier 1 talent. problem is that there simply isn't enough spots for everyone good enough in tier 1 and those aren't good enough but still in tier 1 aren't going to take a salary cut. same reason f1 fans are asking for an 11th and 12th team on the grid, there are 20 slots for like 26 drivers who are worth to have a shot

#9

c4rrotstix

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idk about f1, but I feel like something riot could do is move around their esports budget (at least for americas this is doable), and try to provide a base salary to all orgs invested in tier 2 year round, to try to incentivize orgs to stay in and not try to hawk rosters once they get good

especially with the new December system where it seems to me who hasn't looked too deep into it that there's no reason for orgs to invest into, and they should just drop their rosters

#13

Nef0r0

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well I have another problem. we take a look at NA teams, that's currently 35 slots in NA teams, possibly up to 40. like 10 of them are players you build the team around ,they are franchise players. other 10 of them are servicable players, good enough to be on top teams, but in case they fall off, someone who had a shit year will look forward to getting them. other 20 are either washed or inexperienced, so on the chopping block. even if you get a consistent 20 men rotation of those said players, where is the sustainability for the players?

#30

BadlandsChugs

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this obviously doesn't apply everywhere but i think specifically NA gets fucked by this massively, na challengers has a ton of great talent getting boned by the fact that only half of americas is na. I wish they split na and sa into two leagues but that obviously would have different issues that would probably be worse

#31

Nef0r0

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which makes vct a TEAM league, where players can be great but still get kicked, if eg weren't safe from getting cut, no one is

#6

alchemy02

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Yeah, it's messed up honestly, There is just no way to make a franchised system work otherwise though. Ideally we would have stuck with the open circuit format and teams that did well would receive benefits outside of placement earnings. Tier 2 will one day just completely be ranked players forming premier teams.

#10

Nef0r0

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and then these same players have no incentive to continue if they don't get picked up immediately :)) You might as well see those premier teams join CS or something, there is an open circuit there, git gud and attend events

#7

Hades_Loves_Rb

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Leo "We dont want to make T2 into a stable scene (his actual words)" Faria

#14

Nef0r0

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no fucking way the guy responsible for the growth of the scene said tier 2 doesn't matter, is he fucking retarded?

#18

Anguibok

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He didn't said "it doesnt matter", he say he want it not stable, we can debate if we want a stable T2 or not, but his point is kinda intresting

#20

Nef0r0

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tier 2 is the staple of the scene, I doubt you want to have your stable crumbling

#8

shzuo

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He's just a puppet to high-level executives who don't know shit about competitive games, for them it's just a spreadsheet and Valorant competitive it's just one more number to them.

#11

Mca

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This Leo Faria guys is a useless man, i refuse to believe that he is the Guy pulling the strings into all of this shit.

If It really was only for money, just open the system up and organize Champions alone.

Let ESL, and other companys do the work for you, instead of clearly not being able to do everything alone.

#12

Demon1_The_GOAT

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Everyone BUMP this thread up so Leo Faria see's this shit. There are some VALID points made here.

Also since Tenz is no longer playing professionally for SEN, Valorant will surely fall down for awhile. And SEN will NEVER be the same, nor will Valorant.

Name one ORG that can come up and as far as SEN in the future. Not with this shitty system.

So curious how Leo Faria will save Val.

#15

derp64

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The worst thing is that the majority of VCT viewers won't give a shit as long as they get to watch their 3 favorite teams play every year.

#16

Mbappe

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it was a fine idea but only if there would be more viewership, there is no growth in viewership to sustain the orgs

#17

Nef0r0

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viewership could never be decent for tier 2, the only game with a great tier 2 scene is probably cs, where you have dozens of TOs who organize daily events

#21

c4rrotstix

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I don't think viewership would solve this issue though, as even if we saw viewership rise as a whole, there's no way for the orgs to take that viewership and turn it into a sustainable cash flow. The way that riot is combatting this problem of a sustainable cash flow this year was through team skins + champs skins, which looked to be REALLY effective! Most people following esports aren't really going to be willing to pay 100 dollars for a jersey of a team they like, much less a tier 2 team that they've barely heard of.

Imo riot should lean into using Valorant the game as a way to sustain Tier 2 orgs, and if we see the classic get used again for VCT Tier 1 gun skins, riot could try to make Americas/Europe/China/Pacific Tier 2 pistol skins like the ghost, where they would be similar to the Lockin knife variants, but instead provide money to the Tier 2 leagues.

You could take this a step further, and in order to incentivize orgs to not just buy out rosters, give an extra cut of the proceeds to orgs who stay in the system for longer, allowing for orgs to be more sustainable and give players some more money to work with.

#22

Mbappe

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ofcourse it would, more viewers = more sponsors = more orgs = more better players = more viewers 🔁. And there are multiple reasons for the lower viewership now.

I think Riot being hands-off didn't help at all. Especially in the beginning in EU I remember all the channels for the leagues being different in how they would present and make content. Which is not what you want as viewer. Also in EU it's not really a streamer region, like NA (and Asia). So no big watch parties which I expected/hoped with people as Ibai joining.

#19

BLuko

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Faria is basically the spokesperson of Rito. Kinda hard to tell what he stands for or what he is hired to say.

#23

Anguibok

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That an intresting point, but it seems to me that a strucutre that invest on tier 2 in the long term will create a better environment that allow a team to climb, Look at every ascende team, TGRD, M8, Apeks, M80, Bleed, all of this structure are here building something longtermwize, and this structure will just destroy stroture like DZ that just try to go to fish a good team that played half of year with less mean.

I think this system is intresting, because it give a chance to every org that really want to be a part of Val, with making structure that is just here for the carrot to stay far away. I think this system make the best structure stay and the worst structure leave.

Also they are a huge differences between Amer and Europe, in America, beside few exception, they are no good structure, neitheir in BR and NA (And LA doesn't really have big structure in the first place), but lok at Europe, France, DACH, Turkey, Spain, and even the smaller one (Beside maybe polaris), all of our region are almost full of structure, all of our T2 region could expand to 16 team and still have a lot and lot of structure. Same for Pacific, Japan and KR just expand to 16 and with the aca team, they are no doubt the league will still be stack, and i'm not even talking about SEA, they have enough structure to fill something like 32 spot, and split in SEA HK/SG, even if you take South Asia that is T1 material, (Only OCE struggle because... Well isolation)

To me the problem is that BR, NA, LA, didn't have found their format for T2 yet, they will be the main region that will be helped by academics team (Potentially 3 spot filled for BR, and 5 for NA, we will need so mush less structure), and they are a lot of idea that can help them, create east coast west coast rivalry by splitting the group based on geography instead of random to reduce ping for exemple

#27

c4rrotstix

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So I agree that it is keeping the best orgs in the business, and the worst/least profitable orgs are leaving the scene, but I don't think this is a good thing. The main reason I don't like the idea of having orgs that can't invest/won't invest into valorant into the league is because we simply can't afford less orgs in the league. The game is not large enough like the Premier League where T2 orgs/clubs will have their own backing and are able to stand up by themselves through just fan passion, and along with that, in many regions the teams are so separated (eu having their own league for each country), which just splits up viewers even more. Even though it is good that only the orgs that are investing for valorant are staying, my main concern is that eventually everyone will leave and just let Premier teams come and try their hand, and orgs will pick up whoever is the best premier team and try to save as much money as possible.

To talk about your academy team point, I don't know about BR/LATAM, but for NA (IMO) the academy teams aren't going to be good for the league, because not a single org will want to try to pick one up. Why would an org like C9 who is barely scraping by, and is actually starting to earn a profit as an org due to penny pinching (yay/dropping their 2023 roster), or EG who literally dropped fkin everyone on the best team at the end of 2023, want to spend money on an academy team. The only teams I can potentially see doing an academy team system are SEN (because they might have the money to), 100T (they also might have the money to, but also Nadeshot has been talking about how they are losing some money before), and NRG (the team that dropped the LCS team that made it to quarterfinals before losing to the eventual LOL Worlds Finalists). Although it seems like a good idea in concept, I don't see why any org would want to invest in it without some sort of REAL incentive.

(Also East Coast vs West Coast isn't a thing in Valorant because of every NA org being from the West Coast, and most americans/canadians root for America/Canada, not their specific area)

#29

Anguibok

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(eu having their own league for each country), which just splits up viewers even more.

Definitly no, France is 1/5 of NA, and we still manage to match NA in term of viewer, and we are specifically full of structure, even if Acend leaft today, the T2 syste works in EMEA, and the new change (EMEA event every 4 mouth) will just make it even more hype. This is the real question : Why does this system seem to work in EMEA and in APAC, but not in Americas ?

"Why would an org want to spend money on an academy team", becasue they think longtermwise and T2 scene isnt expansive, even EG managed to hire 10 player, and they become world champion, not picking an academy team would be a huge suicide longtermwise, maybe i'm wrong but I feel USA is, in the western world, the contry that think the least in long termwise (And the only time they invest in long term is when you promise them huge huge irrealist amount of money), they want profit in short term, but this idea especially in esport is really selfdestructive, (In LoL C9 I think C9 had the best Challenger team, so good they managed to win Ascention, and that's basically how Fly Quest got created)

"Also East Coast vs West Coast isn't a thing in Valorant because of every NA org being from the West Coast, and most americans/canadians root for America/Canada, not their specific area"
This is an intresting point, and this may be the reason why : Whatever Leo is doing, he will never be able to do a clouted T2 league. In APAC and in Europe, We cheer for T1 because it's our région, but we have a sense of proximity with our T2, it's out, nation, it's our league. In NA we never tryied to create this sense of proximity and go from the principle that "US are US" even if we saw in traditionnal sport people care about west coast, people care about east coast, and even the south have a strong identity. Valorant NA would win SO MUSH to try to create those regional identity, Imagine a Tier 2 region, where you have a Canadian T2, a West coast T2, a East T2 and maybe a South T2, with every 4 mounth a big tournament that would crowd the kind of NA T2 like we will have in EMEA next year, lets be honest this would be so hype and would also solve some ping problems in the tier 2. Esport never tried to develop regional rivalries in NA and I think this might kill T2 in every esport (Even in LoL NA always struggle with T2 while EMEA thrive)

Maybe another solution to save NA is to expand and "partnered" some team that could be relegated even with poor result, so that would attire some T2 org

#24

badvibrations

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Leo Faria and his team are stupid. This system is doomed anyhow

#25

Warlordwibz

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If a team from Premier ends up winning Ascension, then an org will have effectively "bought" their spot into Tier 1 Valorant, rendering this entire system useless

Getting to ascension is already travelling abroad to compete internationally, but competing as a team in VCT require company overseas operation that involve making bank accounts in Korea/Germany/US, setting up boot camps for at least 1 year, dealing with VISA’s, $50k minimum salary and other contractual legal obligation etc. Org is the only way to support that ascension team.

#28

c4rrotstix

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100% agree, which just further proves how we need to have a reason for orgs to invest before the teams start to qualify for ascension/the split before. If we have Premier teams that made it off of pure skill and vibes then them being denied the opportunity to prove themselves on the biggest stage at LAN because the system is meant to be "unstable" is pure bullshit and goes against the whole spirit of Tier 2 esports

#26

deanAM

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Agree, Franchising works for the teams that made it, it doesn't for the rest, if it is going to stay and the game is to survive long term the overall season needs to change,

It needs to be more spread out over the course of the year, even more that is planned and tier 2 teams need a way to qualify for 1 or 2 of the Masters events, possibly even champions, just have more spots for the franchised teams,

Tier 2 teams need a way to earn cash and exposure (viewership) during the year, not grinding it out the whole way to acension and hoping to then win that or it's all been a hugh waste of time and money.

#32

Nef0r0

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and all of these changes don't make franchising franchising

#33

Targu1n

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we see from Acend leaving the Tier 2 system due to (I assume) concerns with money

They are an east team. They are in one of the most fucked leagues, both in terms of viewership, org involvement as, as well as sponsors (due to the viewerbase being very split between countries and just low)
There also seems to be a bigger problem brewing in East atm that we arent aware of as the public yet. I sadly havent been able to track down anyone whos more involved with east yet whos willing to answer some questions about wtf is going on.
So this has close to nothing to do with the issues of t2 as a whole (since we see other regions compressing to combat this).
Starting a discussion because of it is great, however its definitely being taken out of context.

With what happened with the Guard, we are going to eventually end up seeing orgs just stay out of Valorant until there is a proven roster, then buy that org for a tournament or two in the hope that they might win, then remove their investment. Now that we got the ruling that players who do not have an org can choose an org themselves to represent them, (G2 taking the place of TGRD), there is LITERALLY no reason for teams to invest in a team in Tier 2 before the 2nd stage of Valorant Tier 2, after we see what teams are actually good (see DarkZero/TTR).

Why would any org (except guard who already had the roster when their owner lost any and all interest in esports) buy a roster and then drop it right when they get the biggest reward you can find in esports? That seems counter intuitive. Guard did a gamble and (allegedly) tried to sell their roster, playing chicken with riot. They lost. I highly doubt we'll ever see anything like that again.

The concern here should be much more about orgs that dont meet the criteria to ascend into t1 and have to drop their roster because of it.
That being said to quote Leo Faria (https://twitter.com/lhfaria/status/1830985817193410775) "there's no question that orgs in Challengers are the first in line whenever slots open up."

If a team from Premier ends up winning Ascension, then an org will have effectively "bought" their spot into Tier 1 Valorant, rendering this entire system useless

Teams immediately dropping rosters after they fail (OXG), and letting the rosters play without a salary before coming back into the scene to try to swoop up a spot.

Oxg is a horrible example since they were just dropping a ton of teams in all esports, presumably due to financial struggles in general (as foreshadowed by the RL drama).

But yes this is correct and should be one of the big concerns. A combination of systems seems to address this pretty well though.
First off you will notice when looking to emea that most leagues require a team to find an org to join. So it is exceedingly rare for a team to be able to pick up an existing roster mid season.
Then combine this with the new 3 split format (idk how each region will implement the points, but teams that play the entire year will be heavily favored) incentivize that you dont just fill a relegation spot in split 3 and make it to ascension from that.

Obviously there will be exceptions and maybe teams will try to abuse them, however thats for the TO to figure out and implement a system to create a healthy scene. Especially in NA where there are SO many orgs this shouldnt become and issue in the long term.

(I should note that if NA mandates orgs for t2, the salary will obviously drop even lower which will suck for players, so its not as simple as just saying "eyyyy yeeea we only want orgs from now on". This was more to give ideas how others are currently solving the concerns)

There is a loooooot of work to be done by both TOs and Riot to make sure the scene becomes sustainable and Polaris last year, and (presumably) East next year should serve as a grim warning to Riot that they do need to put effort into this.
But the changes coming in 2025 look like significant improvements and I think people need to really engage and think about them.

The one thing I do want Riot to focus on is to mandate that every region has a t3 curcuit. Theyre dirt cheap to run since you dont need streams or shit like that, but just make sure you fund a small TO that can run regular tournaments and provide an alternative to premier into t2.
Premier is great but it cant replace t3 otherwise you will never grow any grassroots.

#34

donkkomong

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Told you Valorant was dying https://www.vlr.gg/403767/did-i-not-say-valorant-is-dying/#26