Wait, she was Polish and now she is Indian ? :c
| Flag: | France |
| Registered: | December 21, 2022 |
| Last post: | January 24, 2025 at 3:45 PM |
| Posts: | 3025 |
Wait, she was Polish and now she is Indian ? :c
I agree all that they have in common is block mobility but : They are a lot of Sentinel where slow is secondary, just a gimmick and isnt that important in their kit. Imagine a sentinel that have :
KJ ? Just a gimmick on the turret that work like any weapon that fire
Chamber ? May never proc in the game
Cypher ? Breack in less than one sec
Only Sage, DL and Vyze have more « Movement block » than let’s say Astra.
So yeah movement block is an interesting start to define what is a sentinel, but I really don't think you can use it as a definition
« I want to challenge you to look beyond the community’s critiques of Deadlock. Don’t let the general opinion dictate your own thinking. »
To be honnest, at the release of DL we were not that mush to say she was awfull, everybody was afraid of DL ult (That is indeed on of the weakest ult in the game in my eyes), so I don’t feel community have gave my any influence on me, my opinion on DL i’ve make it all alors, she got one of the worst ult in the game (Less reliable than Sage Ult), her wall is worst than Sage (0 doubt), her gravenet worst of Sage orb, and her Sensor that should have been the selling point given how the rest of the kit was weak didn’t do the cut, to me she is still awfull, and will never be meta on anymap because her only strenth is the surprise (Ambush work one BO, not twice, it’s too easy to antistrat), whish not allow her to reach 20 % PR on any map IMO (With a positive Winrate). I think Sage is strong even if she cant keep flank nor smoke, (And stat kinda go in that direction), so I don’t think DL is weak just because no sensor, sensor is the thing that should have save her. So no it’s not because of community that I think she is puretrash ! I’m ready to change my opinion if I see had good result, (or if someone find a new angle that I didn’t saw before), but my stance on DL was « Sage doesnt have a lot of pick, and DL is a weak Sage, plus countrary to Sage she rely on surprise, and surprise cant stand for long in proplay ».
Also don’t worry, you don’t have to sell me « Team doesnt need a real sentinel to cover the flank, you can do without », https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrMksWF43n8 I’m a huge fan of no senitnel composition ! (I tend to think Sentinel are bad, and the best sentinel are the one that can help to take space in atk like Vyze and Sage)
« I’ll end with a controversial take: you can’t take what you hear on the VCT desk as gospel. »
I, 100 % agree on that
I didnt update the data yet, but last time i've checked those double senitnel composition didnt worked really well (45% NMWR)
Since 5.07 they give a different identity to the flash that belong to duelist and to initiator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLTG0jumoJQ
So Reyna/Phoenix is good at entry and their flash is characteristic to duelist (Able to selfflash), Viper slice space a controller, Tejo have reveal like most initiator (Initiator have 3 characteristic, reveal, dezonig and flash specific to initiator), and Omen is the most hybrid one, but not enough to be consider as a something else than controller.
"Classes exist not as a set of rules, but as a general set of ideals of playstyles" even with that definition... the playstyle of Sage (grouping backline) isnt the playstyle of sentinel (lurk)
I made a small definition upper, this kinda work well :
Thats why I have 2 nomenclature, one based on class (Since beside Sage it's kinda work well) :
And one based on 5 main spell of every composition (Dive, Flash, Reveal, PassiveInfo, Smoke), and I basicallt have 3 type of class based on that :
Schedule is horrible, but I also dislike the format, I hate the fact we give a bye to the team that loose first game
Best agent in term of non mirror winrate in split 2 2024 by a good margin (58.5% on more than 300 games)
She have half of her kit that can't be used all alone (and being alone if one of the aim of an anchor), how could she be a good anchor ?
"Controllers need smokes"
Not based on riot definition, as I say in the conclusion of the video, if they are 2 different word for smoker and controller, then why couldn't we have 2 definition ? Breach is the only initiator that have 0 info and he is still considered as an init.
"The point of a senti is to provide stopping power and hold space, either through passive info, traps, or walls."
But smokes also help to hold space and stop power, and they almost all have few spell more to do that. There we kinda come back to "Sentinel is a defensive agent that don't have smokes", wish can be a good definition I suppose, but I still have issues committing on this (the good point with that definition is that I don't have to argue anymore that 2nd ctrl > sentinel)
"In summary a controller uses smokes primarily to deny an enemy from entering a space that wants to be taken, whereas a senti uses util to hold off enemies from a space that belongs to your team" wait but with that definition, doesn't Sage fit more the "deny ennemy from enter" than the "hold off" no ?
« When Deadlock first came out the whole scene decided she was bad because her Sonic Sensor didn't act like a Cypher trip. »
Deadlock doesnt sound as a good exemple, she was really bad after release and did receive a huge amount of up and still stand under 10 % Pickrate even after all that huge ajustement, I kinda agree with the community saying she would be viable if her sensor would work as a trip. People where getting mad because she couldn’t properly cover the flank, and for a senitnel it’s something even Chamber could do. I was studying the meta at this time and in proplay they are a consensus about having 1 diver, 1reveal, 1 smoker in every team, and then we had 3 places for 2 profil (Sentinel, 2nd controller, Flasher), and when you dont fit any of the 3 first catégorie, then you really need to be strong to find a place in the meta, and being a Sentinel that cant cover flank make it even more hard, and since she have nothing special that make her OP, I don’t think even all this up she will be meta (And it’s a shame because I love her design and lore)
« The reasons I would consider Sage a Sentinel are her wall denies space and vision. » doesnt denying space and vision being exactly the definition for a controller ? Sage is an expert of slicing dangerous territorry thanks to her wall, as you said in your definition of controller. ^^
« She can control space with her slow ability » Sentinel are good to own a space they have, while controller are good to make a separation between 2 space, her orb sounds more in the 2 catégorie, it allow you to stall and will more work than an Astra pull or a molly than controller have (And the only exemple that exist in senintel is KJ molly, Deadlock gravnet is another case since the spell doesnt stay on the ground countrary to all those other spells)
« Her Resurrection and Heal are more selling points for a certain type of playstyle. »
I definitly agree on that.
« A playstyle for playing passive. »
In atk, the one that have to play passive is the solocontroller, he is not allowed to take any risk because if he is dead the round is over, and in defense nobody can really be passive.
« For me, controllers offer a gamble and don't lock anything down. » I disagree on that, smoke lock space and force people to respect them, smoke is as good at locking space than any sentinel utility (Maybe even better, since most of sentinel util can be broken really fast). Sure you can cross a smoke, but you will need to use util to cross, because if you dont it’s not a gamble, you are in a situation where you will probably die, kinda the same way that you will probably die if you run into Sentinel util, without breaking them or baiting them x)
« Outside of Astra's slow, most controllers are there to make it risky for you to attack. I know this seems similar but controllers don't focus on attacking your movement, they focus on attacking your health pool. » To me it’s the exact countrary, as I say in the video, role of sentinel is to setup deadly trap that threaten directly your healthpool and all their kit is turn in that direction without the help of anyother agent. Sometime I just feel a common subconscient definition is « A defensive agent like controller, but that dont have smoke » T.T Can you develop more on the mouvement thing ? You might have an intresting point here cause that true that a common point sentinel kinda have, but I dont think it can be seen as a main definition (because if slowing was the turning point, then Astra and Harbor would be seen as sentinel), but to be frank, the mouvement ability is kinda minor, since all thoose slow are meant to be destroy, and doesnt play a huge part on the kit.
« But I think at the end of the day, the beautiful part is, you can choose to play any agent the way you want. »
Sure ! But, my question is here not to say to anyone how they should play any agent, I’m a huge fan of the creativity using Sage, wish is to me the best agent in term of gamedesign (Because it’s allow to support a lot the team, but also to be sometime selfish thanks to the creativity the wall be bring !
The question on how I class Sage is here for one reason : I need to class her when I’m doing my « archetype math » if you already saw one of my vid about analysis you probably now what I mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXpGC-wAsZE but to be short I analysis the winrate of everycomposition in fonction of their number of sentinel, initiator, controller and duelist, and Sage is the only one I cant class T.T
Thanks ! I need to hear that kind of things :D Starting a channel is hard and this kind of message is truly helping a lot !
Don't hesitate to make your own !
Come it my army to fight the allat on this site
Really hard to guess now Tejo was really a gamechanger, I cant wait kickoff is over so I can provide T1+T2 stats
I agree, one of my personnal wet dream is just to rework sentinel into another role and go on a 2-2-2 rolequeue (Since sentinel used to take 2 lanes with trap and bot, it's ok to go to 6v6)
Sentinel are especially bad for soloQ because it's hard to antistrat things like some trap you cant destroy if you dont have the proper comp
Thanks for your constructive reply ! Disagreement is the best to make the knowledge of Valorant advance. And I advice people to counterargument <3 I definitely more people that argue that she is a Sentinel because I need to finally take a decision and stop creating 4 class just for her
« You mention in the video that she doesn't provide intel. »
Thats true, but that’s not the only thing I mention in the video. The first point I use is the definition on sentinels by Riot and I compare it to the definition of controller, and I come to the conclusion that the definition of Controller fit a little bit more to her than the definition of Senitnels.
In fact my points are :
Now the question is more : Can you name few reasons why I should consider her as a sentinel (The argument need to be specific to sentinel and to not work for controller, and to also fit to tradictionnal controllers), and I think this could be the turning point.
It's allowed to have a male team and a GC team in same structure in T1, no reason why it woudl'nt be the case in T2
They are a new rule If GCKC win Ascention they will be allowed to play in T1 and having GCKC vs KC, so I wont be shocked if it's the same for T2
If you already saw one of my video you can see when i do 1talk about "archetypes" (For exemple 2 init, 2 ctrl, 1 duel, is an archetype, 1 sent, 1 ctrl, 1 duel, 2 init is another archetype), I don't count Sage as a Sentinel, and I create 4 brand new archetype just for her....
Today I wanted to explain why did I took that decision :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVLVKI-rQ58
The video is kinda important, one day I will have to take a choice, between count her as a Sentinel, alone, as a Controller, or even as a initiator, and I kinda hope the argument you can bring to me can help me to take a decision about all of that.
Script coming soon
I come to see Arcane 1 with a lot of hopes, because I'm a huge nerd of lore lol (and even made some video about it in french)
I didn't like Arcane 1 for personal taste (Nothing were inconsistent, but it hated the fact we need between half of scene to guess an explanation to link 2 scene, plus Ekko was a living deus ex machina),
I came on Arcane 2 with low expectation, at first I though it was better than the 1, but that was because I put on off my critical thinking, ending it like "I didn't like it but it wasnt that bad", and after I realise so many inconsistency in so many thing, scene happen just because the showrunner want it, no care if it's makes no sense in the scenario, if it's a betrayal of the char logic and consistency. The cherry on the cake, is it kinda destroyed the lore of LoL, and we have absolutely no idea where to put the event of Arcane in the timeline (Some people suspect it to be before the Noxius-Ionia war, and other to be in the current time of event)
I definitely agree with you it's a good retrospective. I think now Cypher can't make unavoidable trap against a composition that isn't able to break spells, he also has loose a lot, so both may suffer a lot from 2024, I still think Deadlock is puretash, and I think Vyze is the only good choice in Sentinel especially because she can help in atk, she can replace the initiator flashor allowing team to have 2ctrl, 1 diver, 1 flasher, 1 1 reveal, that is for me one of the best comp
To be frank, I dont think Cypher an KJ are sane for the game, so it's better if they disapear
Everything is map dependent, but more time pass, more map may become a 2 controller / 0-sentinel comp
I still need few screen to release my video about "Why I doest consider sage Alone, not a sentinel, and maybe put her in controller in the future"
Last time i've checked 0S > 2S > 1S
I didnt use split 3, only split 2 in both T1 and T2
Given the fact TE was the team that used setninel and EDG dont i'm not sure thats the best exemple T.T
Controller have also global util :X (And lot of people start to say that Viper and Astra are "sentinels" wish make no sense but preserve the feeling that a team need to have a sentinel)
For non-listener, here is the script :
Hi vlr, today I want to talk about sentinels, and why I think 2025 might be the future of no-sentinels compositions. And also, why composition with 2 smoker and either 2 initiators or 2 duelist may be the meta for 2025. and I m’ not gonna use the argument « Tejo destroy every sentinels spells » because, using a basic spell to destroy a basic spell is good but not that OP, and I see mush more intresting things to say here.
Alright, so let’s look at the situation of late 2024 and see how the 0 sentinel compositions have made so far. When I look at spells archetypes and take every maps, 0-sentinel composition ended the year with 54 % NonMirror Winrate, wish is a reeally great result, but this result is a little bit biased by the fact Sage did amazingely and I didn’t count her as a Sentinel, and by the fact some type of archetype that doesnt require a sentinel can be a huge troll, like for exemple the 2 initiator 2 duelist composition.
If you want some exemple, they are even map, where no sentinel where meta, Bind was always a no senitnel map and Split have significant good result on doble controller and doble duelist composition. And if you take most recent international event : GenG won the last master being unbeaten on Breeze with 3 win without a sentinel and EDG won last champion being unbeaten on their 2 games of Abyss and their 5 games of Lotus playing no sentinels on both map.
So no… You can’t say « 0 sentinel composition arent viable », they where already quite good bfore Tejo’s release, and they may be even stronger after.
So let’s just look at the class archetype and target at the 2 archetype that I think have the most potential : 2 controller archetypes with either double duelist or double intitator composition. If you except the 4 archetype with Sage, you can see that, globally this 2 archetypes are the 2 best one. Doble initiator composition have 55 % Non Mirror Winrate and in second position we have doble duelist composition with 52 %, but this one is far to be significant.
So we ended the year with composition without Sentinel being already good. But after the year end, few thing happened, first Vyze was release, wish is good for composition with a sentinel, because, she is a sentinel and I still think she is a hidden broken pick. Then we got a cople of up and nerf, Cypher was hardely nerf, wish is obvisouly bad for the Sentinel pickrate… Neon was also nerf, and since Cypher is a counter of Neon, her nerf also is an indirect nerf of Cypher, then Astra was up, and Astra is a good alternative of picking a senitinel… And Finally Tejo was release.
And Tejo is hard countering the last meta sentinel : Killjoy… Why ? Because you remember when I said using a basic spell to break a basic spell isnt that op ? Well when it’s a refillable basic spell can break an ultimate so easily then… Yeah, now we can call this OP… Also, keep in mind, that Killjoy ultimate is the main quality of Killjoy, and I dont really think she have maps where she is played without having a gamebreaker ultimate. So since they are no draft in Valorant, picking Killjoy knowing the opponent team might pick Tejo and nullify your impact doesnt seems a good choice.
So let’s look at every sentinel, and see who is strong, who is weak and who you should pick, one by on :
So we are potentially in a situation where a complete class of agent is bad, and since we are not forced to pick a sentinel in a composition, because they are no rolelock, and some of thoose composition are good. THEN… Real question… Shouldn’t we consider to stop playing Sentinels ? Some team did it in the past and it worked really nice !
So I can’t wait for next year. Will Killjoy and Cypher still be the best option after Cypher nerf, Neon Nerf, Tejo’s release, Vyze’s release, Sage up, Astra up ? I’m not really sure of that, and I really hope some team try to drop thoose 2, and try new thing, it can be pick Vyze, pick Sage, or fully commit on no sentinel on new map, and maybe this is even the best solution. Anyway byyye.
I really hate the format, it so easy to fuck it with a bad schedule, and you know I could rank full day about this, they are other format that are far better to me
Not talking about master, talking about regular season ^^
APAC flag, EMEA name, living in AMER this is a little disturbing @.@
Do you think it would be doable to hold VCT Americas in Los Angeles with all the problem LA have ?
Is that even possible to held it in USA with all the VISA problem team might face in the future ?
What potential US city would you call to replace Los Angeles ?
What potential country would you call to replace USA is visa problem become too big ?
Thats a problem for monocountry T2, but vast majority of T2 have more than one country. In France and Brasil, we have enough big org to make a full sustainable T2 because people are already connected to team thanks to influencers the key to make T2 fun, is to create T3.
Take a region with barely no strong identity like Polaris, that end up with a lot of mix, create one T3 region for each region that cost almost nothing, give the top 2 winner a slot in promotion with the top Premier team, doing that, you augment the number of T2 team that represent a small nation.
Second exemple, SEA, now they have all merge, they should all have their T3 region, and have a full system that ensure every T3 region got at least one representant in the T2 (one solution to make it work here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_fOPBPWl_w)
If everyone is represented in SEA megaregion, then we will have mush more hype in the T2
And the solution to make T3/national league that will bring state representation in T2 work for almost everyone :
And if some region lack of national rivalries, then we can change how the T2 region are made... TR region lack of hype ? Just add Greece (And ensure at list one or two Greek team is add), viewership will literally double
You did forget TH and FUT, they font loose a map for the next 2 day and I haf I can predict I see no reason why thoose 2 shouldnt count :c
As a French, I watched VIT vs KC with a lot of hope, thinking both team could be good. And god ! This one was an horrible Abyss, KC have such a superior composition, but they were never able to take space(When they did they instantely loosing it just beacause they leve), the basic concept of "deposit" was inexistant, they're always ending to make a 4 man push on a stacked site, it was absolutely insane, 0 strategic depth,... they managed to take a lot of thoose round but that was so bad. FNC was absolutely horrible (No guys, you can't play 0 reveal composition since S3, this is a thing of the past, especialy when you have OP agent as Tejo), and no BBL isnt good. Maybe TH and FUT will save us.
To be fair I just think this year everyone is "bad", everyone try to figure out what is really the new meta, and is kinda bad at it, but also kinda bad at executing those new comp. The region that will figure out first (and manage to master it) will win most event this year. In S3, america's team where the first to trust Chamber, and they absolutely dominated the internationals tournament. I think we might be in the same situation.
My guess is that 2 ctrl, 1duel, 1 reveal, 1 flash will be the optimal meta (Like last year champ) : like I said in that vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrMksWF43n8
And the team that will figure out first will have an advantage
Oh boy I just have a PTSD remembering the situation in League
I dont get why it would be fair to give that type of advantage to a looseing team x)
Team hasnt figure out what is great yet, Tejo and Vyze reshuffle things a lot, and team arent used to do something new.
Not sure it will stand, I just feel people experiment but and the end of the year we will end on thinking X is OP and we will need new agent to reshuffle things
WTF does FNC/KC play today and TL/TH play in 5 days ???
The looser of TL and TH games will be fucked, they will have 2 day to prepare while their opponent have 7 day
We kinda go back to thins video when you have some situation when loosing give you an unfair advantage : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvn-sRsuZTE
Discord