FNC Overrated | VLR.gg

#1

Ultia

I keep seeing cope about how FNC would have won champs if they didn’t run into LOUD — perhaps even having the mental edge against EG. With an eye test though, you could tell FNC was becoming readable and had issues with spacing for trades properly. Even with their most recent match they looked sloppy against Vitality on Lotus.

Here’s the map pool break down of the hypothetical champs matchup by comparing the respective teams’ performances against LOUD and accounting for each other’s bans.

EG Take: Pearl, Fracture, Lotus, and Bind.

FNC Take: Haven.

Toss Up: Split and Ascent

It’s clear that FNC has 4 mechanical superstars (sorry boaster, Boostio and Saadhak clear), but there’s too much cope about hiding strats — It was the same last year when they took the exact same comps from Tokyo to Champs. EG did the opposite and experimented until they fixed their Lotus, Bind, and Split.

I’m praying that the Gekko and Yoru rumors are true because seeing FNC has been stale and I firmly believe that they’re becoming complacent because of weaker competition in their region.

Edit: Changed Breeze to Haven as I mistook which map was in the pool.

#2

trembolonaRage

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they are the best team to ever touch the game.

#3

Ailed

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dude didnt even read the post u replied in 10 seconds

#11

Selex

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Sure. Doesn't change that they still would have lost at champions to EG/PRX.

#21

trembolonaRage

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waht u mean lol

https://www.vlr.gg/220448/fnatic-vs-evil-geniuses-champions-tour-2023-masters-tokyo-gf

#24

Selex

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Fnatic were playing worse at champions. EG got better. 9 round differential in that 3 map series, pretty close. They would have lost.

??

#32

cartixuzi

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how do u glaze FNC over your own region's best team that kicked them out of champs

#43

DaBetz

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cause he can still recognize a great team without supporting them

#44

cartixuzi

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"the best team to ever touch the game" lost two Bo3's to a single team in the biggest tourney lol

#50

DaBetz

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and lost to only 2 teams the entire year and won 2/3 intl trophies. name a better team than them then

#47

unknown_trash

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holup this isnt the trembo that i know. he used to worship mwzera so much that he would voluntarily drink and eat anything that leaves mwzeras body.

#76

The_Cleg

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Someone said it yessir

#83

Yistyy

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who tf is upvoting this dogshit? loud clears, and its not even fucking close. fartnatic were mid throughout valorant history, whereas loud were always a top 3 team.

#84

Ultia

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Allez Les Bleus.

FNC loses 0-2 to KC in their sloppiest performance since the roster rebuild.
No new strats or adaptations and being anti-stratted on Lotus by a team that showed off 6x more footage than them. It seems I was right.

#4

EMEAstan

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Cope

#5

MuZe

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grass is green

#6

TeoEmil

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Chronicle was sick during champs no? Wasn’t that why bro played like a bot the entire time and lost them crucial rounds?

#9

Revlo

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New excuse just dropped, funny how I didn’t see this one when chronicle was playing shit at the time.

#17

Ve1bae-

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Chronicle was fever in EMEA final
Chronicle was fever in champ
Dude average body temp whole year is like a 40 degree or smth

#7

Jeffo

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They weren't saving strats, but they won 2 tournaments, how are they overrated?

#8

FluffyRhino4

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You can be the best in the world and still be overrated

#45

DaBetz

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ngl thats the dumbest shit i've read in a while lmao

#64

FluffyRhino4

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Then clearly you do not know what overrated means

#75

DaBetz

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overrated means a team that is rated by people higher than they actually are. if a team is "the best in the world" how can they even be overrated if they are better than everybody else and cant possibly be rated any higher?

#78

FluffyRhino4

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Is there not a difference between best by a little and best by a mile?

For example if you were to believe lebron was better than Jordan all time and everyone agrees and says it isn’t even close, but you believe it is very close; then you would say he is overrated

#79

FluffyRhino4

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Or if everyone believes Fnatic is the best team itw by far and i believe they are barely the best, then everyone else rates them higher than i do and therefore I believe they are overrated.

It really isn’t rocket science

#10

Ultia

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FNC definitely earned those two trophies but not nearly as dominantly as many remember.

Lock-In ended with a comeback from a 3-11 score line on the final map. It easily could have gone LOUD’s way.

Tokyo featured a PRX with a substitute that still placed 3rd and an EG with no practice with their primary duelist due to Visa issues — still managing two close maps.

I think FNC are a phenomenal team with at least three players in the top 3 of their respective roles. I’m worried that very strength will make them complacent as a team as it did during Champs.

Look at EG’s conversion rate after losing a first blood, where no loss of any single player had a significant impact on their round wins — they had the best protocols and mid rounding of any team. Platoon’s video on the best player in the world illustrates this.

If FNC wants to maintain global dominance, they need to compensate for their immense mechanical advantage over their competition by innovating. The mindset to relentlessly refine their “basics” instead of pushing the needle is going to punish them when they run into international teams that can match them mechanically.

#12

Nisham

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/881590587944472678/1210345303518220288/image.png?ex=65ea38e7&is=65d7c3e7&hm=dc34c8c420508272dabcea830438a9e8543c79b0b9463fa947f3cc93089202fc&

Lockin had 2 maps lost. Lost only 1 in tokyo.

That's dominance

Only Gambit has better round winrate in a tournament in the main VCT circuit than their Tokyo run. Only Gambit, Themselves from Tokyo and Sen had better round winrate than them in Lockin run

Fuck off w this overrated bullshit

#23

Ultia

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Let’s not pretend like Lock-In was a competitive tournament given that there was no Double Elim and almost every roster was new — they still almost lost.

Your perspective on Tokyo is narrow. FNC played 4 matches total that tournament and 3 of them were against the two teams I mentioned had disadvantages. Even then, EG nearly won upper finals and map ban advantage.

#27

Nisham

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"nearly"
Doen't mean shit

FNC did do it, and Lockin is perhaps the hardest format ever. 1 loss and you out. EVERY FUCKING TEAM WAS IN IT

#26

DBStudios

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losing no maps in lock in doesn't mean anything, not only were they playing against newly formed teams most of them were pretty trash ngl. even navi made it to finals flawless than got beat by fnatic who couldn't even beat them effortlessly, they still almost lost on both haven and fracture so doesn't mean anything about not losing any maps (btw navi didn't even make it to playoffs in both champs or tokyo). second only losing one map in tokyo doesn't exactly mean anything either except for beating eg, they had arguably the easier side of the bracket never having to met loud (even if they did they probably would have beaten them since they were shaky during the tourney) and only had to play against a shaky nrg and broken prx before meeting up with eg who btw had a very good chance at beating them so there was no "dominance" in any of these tourneys. also btw they got destroyed by loud in champs so idk where that "dominance" went.

#33

Nisham

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You forget that FNC was also a new team, and they didn't even have any meta innovation like harbor viper. They still won

Loud still had 3 core, NRG still had 3 core, Navi had 4 core, DRX had all 5.

#37

DBStudios

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see your point but the problem is that fnatic had a much better starting team than anyone else, basically all of their players were world champions or had heavy lan experience so they were already ahead in that department with amazing aim while teams like navi had to deal with the ange1 experience, loud having 2 rookies, and drx having to deal with loud if they wanted to go to grand finals (also the fact that drx had never really done much improvement even tho they kept their original 5). it also doesn't change the fact that they weren't "dominate" in either tourney, they were getting cooked by loud at lockin and also like i said before had an arguably easier bracket in tokyo not even winning "dominantly" against eg.

#46

Nisham

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"all world champions"

Only 1 guy, chronicle who only had 2 lan app

Leo had 1 lan app, Alfa had 2 app

Only ones with a lot of lan exp were Boaster and Derke

#60

DBStudios

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thats why i said "heavy lan experience" after that plus these players were the best in their teams. leo was the best in guild despite guild placing poorly and alfa being the firepower behind fnatic way before 2023. chronicle was arguably the best player alongside nats on gambit and boaster and derke have been in the vct scene since the first masters.

#13

Sir_Johnny123

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they only lost against 2 teams throughout the whole year. That is dominance

#20

Ultia

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They lost against two teams but finished 4th in champs. The one team they lost to at champs lost to two other teams (thats not a matter of luck).

I’m not insisting that FNC isn’t a top 4 team. I’m saying they’ll be at the bottom of those four if they don’t innovate. It means nothing to “dominate” your region when your goal is supposed to be the best.

#31

asdfgh

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ahh the classic "cause team x lost again team y and team y lost again team z team x must be worse than team z"
fnatic beat drx that won against loud in that same event btw what does that mean

#35

rumbledink

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Yep. This braindead argument is a vlr and reddit favorite

#36

Ultia

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You’re basically saying “my team aren’t champions because they were unlucky with the bracket.”

FNC placed 4th because they lost twice to the 3rd place team who lost to both the 2nd and 1st placed teams, in a BO3 and BO5 respectively.

#40

asdfgh

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idk what ur reading but im pretty sure i never said that

#42

Ultia

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Is it possible that EG could magically beat Loud and PRX in close games but absolutely fumble against FNC?

Yes.

But given how Loud crushed FNC on the maps I referenced I’d say it’s unlikely. Teams don’t win maps with luck. They create strong protocols and strats and PERFORM.

You’re allowed to make extrapolations about how teams might perform against others when you get significant scoreline differences. There’s a reason why FNC banned Fracture against EG after seeing them perform against others in Tokyo.

#49

asdfgh

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u are the one making extrapolations cause of 1 event,there are so many factors that go int winning or losing matches it isnt just 1+1=2 when taking about hypothetical matchups between the top 4 best teams

#53

Ultia

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Lmao that’s not an accusation. I’m literally saying it’s okay to extrapolate because it’s a skill based game. No top team wins a map based on luck — if you win, you are better. It’s not rock paper scissors.

continue thread →

#14

NA_SO_SHIT

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Good analysis, I think they were dominant BUT I also think they definitely did get complacent with the competition during the end of 2023, they need to try new things considering most of the top teams can antistrat them now since it's the same thing 24/7.

#18

Bizm0doe

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honestly very good points,
kinda weird that prx won 2 maps against eg in lower finals but in champs final they win 1, honestly sub buff

#71

Mebi

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PRX was choking alot in champs GF, they played the old bind comp which they looked so lost in (overcooked with it), I think the pressure of this being Jinggg's last game with the team in a while caused them to make a lot of mistakes. Also, everyone in EG woke up for GF, jawgemo and boostio were just destroying PRX on Lotus iirc.

#77

Bizm0doe

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ye, i was really confused over something on breach

#30

rumbledink

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"they need to compensate for their insane mechanical advantage" huh? Ignoring the fact that this doesn't make sense, they do innovate for every tournament by coming up with new strats for their existing comps. The changes they made to their comps on fracture and bind were unnecessary and they would have done better playing their usual comps.

I also have no idea what your hypothetical champs map breakdown means. Are we talking about 2023? Breeze wasn't in the pool.

#34

Ultia

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Yeah, I mistakenly put down Breeze instead of Haven but it plays out the same. The map breakdown is valuable because it illuminates a team’s weaknesses when they’re forced into a BO5 and are forced to adapt after their playbooks are exhausted/countered.

They innovate a lot less than their international counterparts. You won’t convince me that both their losses to LOUD weren’t a result of heavy anti-stratting — something that Potter is renowned for.

#39

rumbledink

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So you're saying, for example, that because EG performed better on Lotus against Loud that Fnatic would lose to EG on Lotus? That is such a convoluted way of thinking about the game. I'm done

#52

Ultia

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Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m saying, especially in the case of Lotus.

LOUD beat FNC 13-6 and lost against EG 4-13. You think that’s not a good enough indicator of the respective teams’ strategies and protocols?? FNC literally ban it in the rematch.

Bind isn’t as clean but after losing 1-13 to DRX, I have zero faith in Champs FNC to win on that map against better teams.

#70

Ultia

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This first chart illustrates FNC’s poor trading habits — mostly due to slow defaults on attack. They struggle with large team fights that’d you’d see when teams scrap for heavily contested space.

[Trading Stats] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/818683218747195412/1210806401400832081/IMG_0163.png?ex=65ebe655&is=65d97155&hm=1d473eab4d12862a62bd0d1a05a1dc257a8562706545ad3ef4a0b3f2feae7d5a)

This second chart illustrates the amount of rounds each player nets their team when they have an above average amount of kills. Essentially how much each team relies on a player to pop-off each map. Note how low the EG players are, signifying how balanced their impact is regardless of individual under/over performance. The best way to read it is the average amount of rounds Lost when a player gets less than 16 kills a map.

[Round Differential] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/818683218747195412/1210806530388000849/IMG_0166.png?ex=65ebe674&is=65d97174&hm=6c5d8840eba9d6f770acca2de2f30ad42cd5fff556f975b7a54e3d40fd597d7d)

I think a FNC with EG stats would be the undisputed best in the world — they’re just not there yet and the numbers don’t lie.

Credit to Platoon

#15

Shidoh

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“I keep seeing cope about how FNC would have won champs if they didn’t run into LOUD”
just facts lil bro

#16

smthlikeyou11

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except pearl and fracture will be banned because fnc will be upper bracket
map pool will be
fnc lotus
eg ascent
fnc haven/split
eg bind
fnc haven/split

#28

Ultia

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EG hard fixed their Lotus and took the map against both Loud and PRX (latter beat Loud). LOUD crushed FNC on that map during champs.

Split is much closer given that both times they played the scoreline was 13-11.

I did make a mistake of marking EG’s map ban as Breeze but you’re right that Haven was in rotation during champs and FNC would take it.

That means with FNC map ban of Fracture and Pearl, EG takes Ascent, Bind, and potentially Lotus while FNC takes Haven. The rest are a toss up. I’d still give EG odds there.

#48

smthlikeyou11

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seems like the world forgot what fnc lotus looks like, only team that beat fnc lotus was loud bc loud. Eg def takes ascent and bind, and i believe fns takes lotus. Split ehhh could go both ways. fnc is also mechanically better than eg. Oh but eg beat loud on lotus, and lotus beats fnc, so surely eg wins against fnc! Loud was the only team fnc couldnt beat during champs. Loud hard antistratted fnc and forgot about other teams. Also there is no GUARANTEE that eg takes ascent either

#38

Selex

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Fnatic would have definitely lost lotus. Re-watch the tournament. Eg had the best lotus in the world at champions.

#19

Soddalele

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fnatic was dominant enaugh for most NA fans to complain about champs "being boring" if fnatic won that too.

its incredible to me how much time NA spends trying to invalidate fnatic's insane 2023.

#41

asdfgh

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exactly,its like 1 bad event just erased 6 months of their memory,went from crying about fnatic being boring cause they were so many levels above everyone to saying its suddenly "mickey mouse" when they finally got to shine for a moment,0 shame sadly

#58

Ultia

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I’m not trying to invalidate their year friend. I’m saying they need to evolve because their champs results weren’t a fluke. Anyone saying otherwise is coping. It’s not just “1 bad event.” They were absolutely picked apart by the third best team twice.

#61

Soddalele

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you are stuck in the "x team beat y team, and y team beat z team so x is better than z" loop my guy.

just because loud was 3rd placed doesnt mean that fnatic was worse than EG/prx, it just means that fnatic lost twice to loud. Fnatic-loud was close matches the whole year. if you looked at fnatics matches last year u could tell that fnatic just looked alot more vulnerable against loud than any other team.

#65

Ultia

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You’re insisting that it’s rock paper scissors. I’m saying it’s not because teams actually have to perform to reach their projected “power level”. FNC didn’t perform, twice. All three of the others did and the finalists did it better than LOUD who did it better than FNC. Watch some analysis on those matches and how every team picked up on anti-stratting FNC – LOUD just had the pleasure of sending them home.

#66

Soddalele

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and you are insisting that fnatic would have performed equally bad against prx/eg? i do see what u mean but you need to understand that what your saying isnt fact or logic. its speculation.

#22

DBStudios

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fnatic even now is hella overrated, they were dominate in 2023 by winning both lock in and tokyo but then almost drop a map to vitality who aren't even ranked that high in terms of teams. the only times that fnatic has been pushed to ot or close to it were against teams like loud, eg, and tl during playoffs in emea all being high tier teams (with the exception of tl but they did better in playoffs than in champs and tokyo). so unless you want to classify vitality as a top tier team (which for now they aren't) than yeah fnatic has gotten much worse since 2023.

#25

Jackerlus

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what are you waffling about? vitality was hyped the whole off season as soon as their roster was announced, especially by the likes of platchat

#29

DBStudios

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wym "hyped the whole off season" even in the platchat's vod they literally say that sayf was a W pick up but they didn't know about kicks or runner and said there were much better options than them. the only reason they had some hope was because of sayf's signing and that was pretty much it, without him there would have been no "hype" around the team.

#80

Jackerlus

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they legit put them top 4 in their power rankings while saying they could be potentially higher but it's hard to tell at that point. that's a champions placement position, that's hype.

#51

sdgdfdrgdrfgdrgdrfttdhy

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brother is living in an alternate reality

#73

Cacachocolat

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flag and flair

#54

justforthis

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nope

#55

Conut

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Boostio doesnt clear Boaster btw.

#57

Sonatine

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I would say Fnatic is the best team by talent. They have 5 insane players, which belong to the best in the world on their positions - and Leo is currently probably the best player in the world together with Demon1. Their biggest negative point is the "work ethic". mini stated that out after Champions. If Fnatic would have played against LOUD like they practiced it, they could have won it like they won against EG twice a few weeks earlier in Tokyo. But the team didn't work as hard, they didn't practice as much anymore and they simply didn't grind as much as they needed it. Please watch Boostios EG interview regarding this topic.

Fnatic simply didn't give all they had to win Champions - but they did exactly that in Tokyo and Brazil.

A team that won two majors in a row is not "overrated". People who say Fnatic is overrated don't understand how difficult it is to win two majors like LOCKIN and Tokyo Masters in a row, to beat a crazy team like LOUD on their homeground, to beat PRX in Tokyo with that high numbers and to beat EG including a hungry Demon1 5-1 in maps. That's no luck. There is no "overrated" here. Also NRG is not overrated as some people said after the 12-14 on one map against C9. It doesn't even make sense.

Look at the CS scene. There are different teams winning S-Tier events almost every time. Vitality, MOUZ, G2, FaZe, Spirit, Heroic, then against Vitality and so on.

The more the skill level and also the skill ceiling are rising, the more every match will be decided by nuances. What could have been decided within 10 seconds in 2022 is now only 2 seconds in 2024. Every match on the highest level gets more difficult. That's how E-Sports should be. There should be no one super team that always wins everything. E-Sports should have rivalries, grand-finals should be thrilling and neither Fnatic nor NRG, PRX or LOUD should win every major.

#59

Ultia

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I actually really love your take.

Perhaps “overrated” is too harsh of a term to use and reflects more so on the “Stans” that I’ve had the displeasure of running into than the actual potential of the team.

FNC has an immense ceiling and I wanted to emphasize how they squandered it leading up to champs because I don’t want that to happen again. I’m mostly worried that the lack of competition in EMEA will make them lax. I’m from NA but I a massive fan of Chronicle and I hope they take another trophy this year.

Cheers to unforgiving competition!

#63

Ultia

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Yo, how am I still getting downvoted while saying that I hope FNC wins another trophy? Y’all weird fr

#68

Kris

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Probably people reading the title and downvoting you on every comment without reading what you wrote, idk ¯_(ツ)_/¯

#62

Pondy

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Fnatic has the highest ceiling out of all the teams last year imo. They just didn’t hit it in champs be it because of complacency or burnout or whatever.

However you cut it a team having like a 20-3 match record in a year is genuinely indicative that they’ve had a pretty dominant year.

#69

Gummybears

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bro they were so obviously saving strats in that vitality game, they were just contacting in running the alfa derke go kill stat every round basically.

#72

Ultia

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I hope so.

I hope it means that those saved strats aren’t wholly untested like LOUD’s during Tokyo too

#85

HUMANITYGONE

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For me, the format and calendar is not enjoyable imo. From a pro player perspective must be even less enjoyable. 6 months off season, now for 80% of the teams another month off...

#86

yaiima0

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you were right :D