Sage isn't a Sentinel

#1

Anguibok

If you already saw one of my video you can see when i do 1talk about "archetypes" (For exemple 2 init, 2 ctrl, 1 duel, is an archetype, 1 sent, 1 ctrl, 1 duel, 2 init is another archetype), I don't count Sage as a Sentinel, and I create 4 brand new archetype just for her....
Today I wanted to explain why did I took that decision :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVLVKI-rQ58

The video is kinda important, one day I will have to take a choice, between count her as a Sentinel, alone, as a Controller, ~~or even as a initiator~~, and I kinda hope the argument you can bring to me can help me to take a decision about all of that.

~~Script coming soon~~

#2

Cabo_

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and viper is a sentinel

#4

Prasinos

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Astrea a Initiator.

#35

svionSKR

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jett is controller

#54

Hyxagon

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neon is a vanguard

#3

m4

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Hey, I know that you're really trying here and I definitely support your journey. But you are confusing the role with how you play her.

Just to spot check your video, you don't view Sage as a Sentinel because you don't use her as intended. You mention in the video that she doesn't provide intel. Well that's just because you relate the word "intel" to agents that trigger something that let's people know. But the inverse of that is her wall.

If something placed on the map tells you where people are then a wall can tell you where people are not. If you block off a certain direction the enemy cannot come from that direction unless you have an agent that can get above the wall. You might think you've have a gotcha moment with this but all Sentinels can be avoided.

But once again, I think we need more people like you trying to come up and rationalize the game. Keep at it and feel free to argue with me as that is how I learned a lot of the time.

#11

Kevn

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I don’t come to this site often anymore because people could never have this type of conversation. Great reply to the original post, love to see it. These forums need more people who love to talk about the actual game.

#12

Anguibok

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Thanks for your constructive reply ! Disagreement is the best to make the knowledge of Valorant advance. And I advice people to counterargument <3 I definitely more people that argue that she is a Sentinel because I need to finally take a decision and stop creating 4 class just for her

« You mention in the video that she doesn't provide intel. »
Thats true, but that’s not the only thing I mention in the video. The first point I use is the definition on sentinels by Riot and I compare it to the definition of controller, and I come to the conclusion that the definition of Controller fit a little bit more to her than the definition of Senitnels.
In fact my points are :

Her spells doesnt fit the definition of sentinel and more of the definition of a controller
The argument you can use to say she is a senintel isnt specific for senitnel and also work for controller
The way she is use doesnt fit the Sentinel rôle
I think thats the combination of that 3 argument that make me think if I have to put her somewhere it has to be in controller more than in sentinel

Now the question is more : Can you name few reasons why I should consider her as a sentinel (The argument need to be specific to sentinel and to not work for controller, and to also fit to tradictionnal controllers), and I think this could be the turning point.

#22

m4

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No problem. Let's go ahead and set the stage for the definitions of each from Riot.

Definitions from Riot for Sentinel and Controller:

Sentinels are defensive experts who can lock down areas and watch flanks, both on attacker and defender rounds.
Controllers are experts in slicing up dangerous territory to set their team up for success.

I think where a lot of people get caught up is when what you see is the only way you can play an agent. One of the unfortunate things about the educational community in Valorant is that they are linear. I think people believe that pro players are just players with a longer list of rules than them. That's simply not even close.

There is literally so much space for creativity that we miss this and shun people who think differently. Some of the most interesting esports experiences have been creativity driven. I'm not sure if you know about Brax but he's from Counter-Strike and is known for throwing his pistol up and pretending its a flash. I don't think you could find a single pro at the time who would think that was a good idea. Same thing with Stewie2k, I don't think you could find a single person who was throwing flashes throw smokes like he did. These are expressions of creativity and not rules.

And while there is a lot of value in learning the basics, you shouldn't let that be the end all of your journey. The truth of the matter is that once you get to the pro level, you punish people based on rules you think they follow. Sometimes plays look absolutely dumb but they work because the opponent literally thinks you would never do something like that, because it's so dumb.

All this to say that Sage being a Sentinel is murky by design. It is an expression of creativity from the Riot devs on the concept of a Sentinel. We saw the same sort of rejection of Deadlock. When Deadlock first came out the whole scene decided she was bad because her Sonic Sensor didn't act like a Cypher trip. That's the whole point. Developers do not want to copy and paste the same designs over and over. Sometimes they overdo it and need to tone it back but in general, I don't think people want Cypher coming out 100 times as a new agent when there is simply nothing new about it.

The reasons I would consider Sage a Sentinel are her wall denies space and vision. She can control space with her slow ability. I think those are the two things that make her primarily a Sentinel. Her Resurrection and Heal are more selling points for a certain type of playstyle. A playstyle for playing passive.

For me, controllers offer a gamble and don't lock anything down. Pick any agent and their abilities offer you the chance to attack or defend an area but at a price. Those price points are vulnerability and damage. Outside of Astra's slow, most controllers are there to make it risky for you to attack. I know this seems similar but controllers don't focus on attacking your movement, they focus on attacking your health pool.

But I think at the end of the day, the beautiful part is, you can choose to play any agent the way you want. I think that the base of this game is essentially Counter-Strike and the agent is just a flavoring or an enhancement on top.

#36

Anguibok

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« When Deadlock first came out the whole scene decided she was bad because her Sonic Sensor didn't act like a Cypher trip. »
Deadlock doesnt sound as a good exemple, she was really bad after release and did receive a huge amount of up and still stand under 10 % Pickrate even after all that huge ajustement, I kinda agree with the community saying she would be viable if her sensor would work as a trip. People where getting mad because she couldn’t properly cover the flank, and for a senitnel it’s something even Chamber could do. I was studying the meta at this time and in proplay they are a consensus about having 1 diver, 1reveal, 1 smoker in every team, and then we had 3 places for 2 profil (Sentinel, 2nd controller, Flasher), and when you dont fit any of the 3 first catégorie, then you really need to be strong to find a place in the meta, and being a Sentinel that cant cover flank make it even more hard, and since she have nothing special that make her OP, I don’t think even all this up she will be meta (And it’s a shame because I love her design and lore)

« The reasons I would consider Sage a Sentinel are her wall denies space and vision. » doesnt denying space and vision being exactly the definition for a controller ? Sage is an expert of slicing dangerous territorry thanks to her wall, as you said in your definition of controller. ^^

« She can control space with her slow ability » Sentinel are good to own a space they have, while controller are good to make a separation between 2 space, her orb sounds more in the 2 catégorie, it allow you to stall and will more work than an Astra pull or a molly than controller have (And the only exemple that exist in senintel is KJ molly, Deadlock gravnet is another case since the spell doesnt stay on the ground countrary to all those other spells)

« Her Resurrection and Heal are more selling points for a certain type of playstyle. »
I definitly agree on that.

« A playstyle for playing passive. »
In atk, the one that have to play passive is the solocontroller, he is not allowed to take any risk because if he is dead the round is over, and in defense nobody can really be passive.

« For me, controllers offer a gamble and don't lock anything down. » I disagree on that, smoke lock space and force people to respect them, smoke is as good at locking space than any sentinel utility (Maybe even better, since most of sentinel util can be broken really fast). Sure you can cross a smoke, but you will need to use util to cross, because if you dont it’s not a gamble, you are in a situation where you will probably die, kinda the same way that you will probably die if you run into Sentinel util, without breaking them or baiting them x)

« Outside of Astra's slow, most controllers are there to make it risky for you to attack. I know this seems similar but controllers don't focus on attacking your movement, they focus on attacking your health pool. » To me it’s the exact countrary, as I say in the video, role of sentinel is to setup deadly trap that threaten directly your healthpool and all their kit is turn in that direction without the help of anyother agent. Sometime I just feel a common subconscient definition is « A defensive agent like controller, but that dont have smoke » T.T Can you develop more on the mouvement thing ? You might have an intresting point here cause that true that a common point sentinel kinda have, but I dont think it can be seen as a main definition (because if slowing was the turning point, then Astra and Harbor would be seen as sentinel), but to be frank, the mouvement ability is kinda minor, since all thoose slow are meant to be destroy, and doesnt play a huge part on the kit.

« But I think at the end of the day, the beautiful part is, you can choose to play any agent the way you want. »
Sure ! But, my question is here not to say to anyone how they should play any agent, I’m a huge fan of the creativity using Sage, wish is to me the best agent in term of gamedesign (Because it’s allow to support a lot the team, but also to be sometime selfish thanks to the creativity the wall be bring !
The question on how I class Sage is here for one reason : I need to class her when I’m doing my « archetype math » if you already saw one of my vid about analysis you probably now what I mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXpGC-wAsZE but to be short I analysis the winrate of everycomposition in fonction of their number of sentinel, initiator, controller and duelist, and Sage is the only one I cant class T.T

#41

m4

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I want to challenge you to look beyond the community’s critiques of Deadlock. Don’t let the general opinion dictate your own thinking. As we’ve discussed before, Sentinel abilities are not undefeatable—there’s never been such a thing as a “safe flank.” All Sentinel utility can be bypassed in some way.

Deadlock’s kit has many oppressive tools, but the community often approaches her playstyle through the lens of Cypher and Killjoy, which limits their perspective. This mindset causes players to miss opportunities for creative strategy. If new agents played exactly like their predecessors, the game would quickly become boring. Instead, to truly understand Deadlock, you need to analyze what it means to “cover the flank” and how her unique mechanics fit into the game.

From a game mechanics perspective, a player’s field of vision (FOV) is roughly 105 degrees, meaning you can’t visually cover 255 degrees of your surroundings. Even if you place something to alert you to an enemy’s presence, you still need to see them to act. But what if the enemy retreats after triggering your utility? What if you go to investigate and find nothing? Isn’t that information valuable in itself? Assuming utility will always guarantee control of space is unhealthy thinking.

Covering the flank isn’t just about holding space—it’s about helping your team win rounds. Too many Sentinel players lose sight of this. The ultimate goal isn’t to perfectly execute your role; it’s to secure victory. There’s no grading system for your performance as a Sentinel. Winning is what matters.

When we look beyond the community’s criticisms, Deadlock’s kit is far more oppressive than it seems. Her Sonic Sensor, for example, isn’t meant to function like a tripwire; it’s an ambush tool. Placing the sensor so that its detection range ends just past an entry point can create a sense of false security for attackers. When it goes off, you can throw up her barrier wall to isolate attackers from their teammates. Most players will panic and retreat when stunned, giving you an opportunity to follow up with her net grenade. This forces the enemy team to make tough decisions—either remain vulnerable and protect their teammate or destroy the net, giving away a sound cue that you can use to your advantage.

On attack, her net grenade can pair well with Initiators who provide vision. Once you locate an enemy, you can trap them in the net, then follow up with a peek or a teammate’s molly or grenade. Her ultimate, while finnicky, becomes more effective when you plan its placement carefully. Using it on-the-fly often leads to issues with map geometry, as Riot’s decision to bypass clipping on certain objects makes its behavior less predictable.

As you can see, Deadlock’s potential extends far beyond simply using her Sonic Sensor as a tripwire replacement. Unfortunately, the professional scene and its coaches often stick to tried-and-true strategies rather than exploring new approaches. This mindset filters down to the broader player base, reinforcing limited thinking about what’s viable or “meta.”

I’ll end with a controversial take: you can’t take what you hear on the VCT desk as gospel. Listening to analysts and expecting to improve is a mistake. While they may be entertaining, there’s no fundamental difference between their opinions and those of other high-level players. Improvement in tactical FPS games comes from intellectual study and experimentation, not from following the crowd. There’s no textbook or PhD program for mastering tactical shooters. Those who take the time to truly understand the game’s mechanics will always have the edge in the long run.

#46

Anguibok

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« I want to challenge you to look beyond the community’s critiques of Deadlock. Don’t let the general opinion dictate your own thinking. »
To be honnest, at the release of DL we were not that mush to say she was awfull, everybody was afraid of DL ult (That is indeed on of the weakest ult in the game in my eyes), so I don’t feel community have gave my any influence on me, my opinion on DL i’ve make it all alors, she got one of the worst ult in the game (Less reliable than Sage Ult), her wall is worst than Sage (0 doubt), her gravenet worst of Sage orb, and her Sensor that should have been the selling point given how the rest of the kit was weak didn’t do the cut, to me she is still awfull, and will never be meta on anymap because her only strenth is the surprise (Ambush work one BO, not twice, it’s too easy to antistrat), whish not allow her to reach 20 % PR on any map IMO (With a positive Winrate). I think Sage is strong even if she cant keep flank nor smoke, (And stat kinda go in that direction), so I don’t think DL is weak just because no sensor, sensor is the thing that should have save her. So no it’s not because of community that I think she is puretrash ! I’m ready to change my opinion if I see had good result, (or if someone find a new angle that I didn’t saw before), but my stance on DL was « Sage doesnt have a lot of pick, and DL is a weak Sage, plus countrary to Sage she rely on surprise, and surprise cant stand for long in proplay ».
Also don’t worry, you don’t have to sell me « Team doesnt need a real sentinel to cover the flank, you can do without », https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrMksWF43n8 I’m a huge fan of no senitnel composition ! (I tend to think Sentinel are bad, and the best sentinel are the one that can help to take space in atk like Vyze and Sage)

« I’ll end with a controversial take: you can’t take what you hear on the VCT desk as gospel. »
I, 100 % agree on that

#43

m4

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Also I'll try to help you better understand using a comparison between all the Sentinels and Sage and how they are similar. I'm going to focus on her Barrier and her Slow Orb and show you how those things do the same things as the other agents.

Killjoy
KJ's turret, when you get hit by the turret, do you run at the same speed? No, so in essence it is a slow
KJ's molly's when paired with alarm bot, if anything this is more like a controller because it makes you vulnerable then the mollys damage you. This is very unique to KJ, she is a Sentinel + Damage. But the slow is there and her ability to stop you from moving in a certain space is the same as the wall. The space is locked down.

Cypher
Tripwire, very much like a slow. Can you run through a tripwire? How do you have to approach a tripwire? Running or walking? If you're walking, then your speed is attacked more or less, thus it is very much like a slow.
Cypher's kit is more about intel but a combination of his cage plus either camera or trip, locks down an area.

Chamber
The Trademark ability pretty much acts inline with a trip but once again can you run through the trip? Do you have to approach is slowly? If anything it is a very weak slow because it gives you a sound cue but at the end of the day, you cannot run past it.
Chamber's kit is more gun mechanic focused but with his general playstyle associated with the Operator, the area is pretty much guaranteed locked down. This was more obvious in the previous iterations of Chamber.

Deadlock
Sonic Sensor, similar in that you cannot just run through the trip. We get the same characteristics out of her version of the trip. But Deadlock is more about ambushing. This is similar to Chamber in that Chamber isn't used as an agent that might hide like Cypher or KJ, Deadlock was created to be aggressive post entry. I don't like her ultimate, but you cannot deny that it is not made for small spaces. Definitely a lockdown agent.

Vyse
I mean, do I even? She has a wall, She has a slow. Her ultimate removes guns in a giant circle.

Conclusion:
As you can see, each agent is trying to attack movement with their abilities. You cannot run past Sentinel utility with paying a fee.

I think people often get hung up on the fact that the community in general tries to tie performance to agents. Performance and Agents have very little to do with each other as people generally understand it. You are not a good Omen player because you place smokes before entry. A good Omen player may use teleport to be flashy but the gun eliminates the player. And I don't think anyone is going to argue that a well placed grenade makes you the best Raze player.

You really need to untie those two things. If anything, abilities provide you with an advantage. But in no way would a great Omen player go up against Tenz and win every engagement because they are a great Omen player.

#47

Anguibok

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I agree all that they have in common is block mobility but : They are a lot of Sentinel where slow is secondary, just a gimmick and isnt that important in their kit. Imagine a sentinel that have :

Deadlock sensor that oppnent cant see, give info when someone pass, no stun
Cypher cam
KJ molly
Vyze ult
Everyone would say it’s a Senitnel even if they are no slow, so I can totally imagine an agent that is sentinel with no doubt and still have no mouvement block, and i can totally imagine agent that block mouvement that insnt sentinel (Harbor, Astra, Fade, Sova, Breach and any agent that have any weapon, wish is everyone @.@).

KJ ? Just a gimmick on the turret that work like any weapon that fire
Chamber ? May never proc in the game
Cypher ? Breack in less than one sec
Only Sage, DL and Vyze have more « Movement block » than let’s say Astra.

So yeah movement block is an interesting start to define what is a sentinel, but I really don't think you can use it as a definition

#27

Two_Percent

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Controllers need smokes, sages wall is less for blocking vision and more for blocking movement

The point of a controller is to provide smokes, as well as secondary util

The point of a senti is to provide stopping power and hold space, either through passive info, traps, or walls.

Sages slows and wall helps her to maintain space, but unlike a controller doesn’t allow her to deny enemies from it, unless you’ve already taken it

In summary a controller uses smokes primarily to deny an enemy from entering a space that wants to be taken, whereas a senti uses util to hold off enemies from a space that belongs to your team

#31

Shadow_Monarch

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"Deny entry" vs. "Hold off enemies"
Basically Controller vs Sentinel, I guess.

#37

Anguibok

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"Controllers need smokes"
Not based on riot definition, as I say in the conclusion of the video, if they are 2 different word for smoker and controller, then why couldn't we have 2 definition ? Breach is the only initiator that have 0 info and he is still considered as an init.

"The point of a senti is to provide stopping power and hold space, either through passive info, traps, or walls."
But smokes also help to hold space and stop power, and they almost all have few spell more to do that. There we kinda come back to "Sentinel is a defensive agent that don't have smokes", wish can be a good definition I suppose, but I still have issues committing on this (the good point with that definition is that I don't have to argue anymore that 2nd ctrl > sentinel)

"In summary a controller uses smokes primarily to deny an enemy from entering a space that wants to be taken, whereas a senti uses util to hold off enemies from a space that belongs to your team" wait but with that definition, doesn't Sage fit more the "deny ennemy from enter" than the "hold off" no ?

#5

kaninv

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Please keep making videos, I think any analysis is good and interesting plus it develops the game in ways people may not have thought of before

#30

Anguibok

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Thanks ! I need to hear that kind of things :D Starting a channel is hard and this kind of message is truly helping a lot !

Don't hesitate to make your own !

#6

Vaaero

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She's not a trap sentinel by any means, and she isn't very good at filling any role really, but that doesn't mean she can't hold space and anchor sites as is the technical definition of a sentinel.

#38

Anguibok

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She have half of her kit that can't be used all alone (and being alone if one of the aim of an anchor), how could she be a good anchor ?

#42

Vaaero

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Her wall and her slow. Her slow alone can easily buy enough time for her teammates to rotate.

#7

nobody___100

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sage is a terrible agent in your ranked games and if your teammate locks her you should instantly dodge

#8

H3ENnZ

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Shes alright on split and bind, other than that shes quite trash on other maps

#9

Laundry

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I’d argue she’s better on icebox than on bind

#10

H3ENnZ

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that too but since icebox isnt in the pool yet i didnt include it

#15

nobody___100

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the issue with sage isn't the agent, its the people that play her in ranked
want to heal? please fuckin play skye. want to play senti or have walls? cypher, kj, vyse, deadlock all available. want to be a submissive twink? get out of my ranked games then please.

#17

bbydrix

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playing skye just to heal is worse than picking sage

#21

nobody___100

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but at least there is info util like dog and flash
remember ranked players below diamond (90% of the playerbase) are not intelligent at all
im not saying you should play agents just to heal
but that's the logic of a lot of sage players in general

#29

bbydrix

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if someone picks skye to heal theres like a 90% chance they are not going to use thier other util or are just gonna blind their teammates while flashing lmao

#40

nobody___100

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at least there is an easy dog and easy ult

#14

skibiditoiletfanhuge

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extremely uncommon for a double digit sage

#16

bees

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2nd highest non-mirror winrate in ranked btw

#24

229fn

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yeah because of smurfs :/

#25

bees

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Still the 6th highest in immo+ (and the highest in ascendant)

Regardless of the reason, you're statistically more likely to win if you have a Sage on your team

#34

229fn

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the uwu egirl buff is real

#56

KOMPOSTO

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cap, i never win with sage egirle in my team in immo

#57

bees

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vstats.gg

#33

Anguibok

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1st in proplay with 58.5% WR

#39

Anguibok

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Best agent in term of non mirror winrate in split 2 2024 by a good margin (58.5% on more than 300 games)

#13

Adzeu1

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agreed.

#18

Mkael_J_Kabo0s3

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Sage is one of the weaker sentinels but on certain maps is very good. I don't agree with you personally just because she does lock down sites with her wall and slow orbs and supports through her utility very well. You might be right as a pure sentinel, shes admittedly weak since her wall can be broken extremely fast and her slow orbs arent good for deterrence because they don't do damage and can only reveal when people are going through them, but on maps like split and bind and even haven where there are sites with one real entrance her wall and slows become a lethal combo for fending off site hits especially paired with mollies.

I think she fits the role of sentinel, the only part where she may be weak at is holding the flank on attack rounds(but even other agents sometimes don't really fill this role that well with agents like Deadlock and her sensors)

In my opinion she doesn't fit the role of controller because the only real piece of utility she has for cutting of areas is her wall and its very limited in its usage because it requires her body to be near in order to place which weakens which areas she can actually control. The main role of the controller is to block off sightlines and make sites more manageable for attackers to take space, and Sage just isn't really good at that. As opposed to someone like omen who can smoke from across the map and has two of them which allows for greater control of a site

respect the opinion though and if you disagree with me I'm happy to respond to you

#51

Anguibok

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"I don't agree with you personally just because she does lock down sites with her wall and slow orbs and supports through her utility very well."
Stall is more something that controller have than something sentinels have, sentinel on a site doesnt want to stall, they want to trap !

"I think she fits the role of sentinel"
Sure, but the question is more : "Why" The only argument I saw there is the stalling power and I feel that a concern that work better fort ctrl ^^

"she has for cutting of areas is her wall and its very limited in its usage because it requires her body to be near in order to place which weakens which areas she can actually control."
I think everything depend, if I take Riot definition of controller it's not only about cutting vision, it's also about taking control of an area, and she can do that with orb, and forcing ennemy into chokepoint (Wish wall also do that), since 2 of her spell doesnt fit any categories (Heal and rez are just something that fit no roles), we just have to focus on orb and wall, and it seems that the wall do the 3 thing that enter in the definition of a controller. Thats why my conclusion is to ask people if they would agree to give 2 different definition of "controller" and "smoker" (Sage being a non-smoker controller, the same way Breach is a non-reaveal initiator)

Thanks for your answer !

#19

SXNFLGJL

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And jett is a controller

#20

V0sotros

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roles in this game are pretty bad tbh, each "role" in this game has like 2 sub roles they could reasonably be split into and I would have very little complaint, like while both being controllers, you play viper and omen in very different ways, but the average player doesn't really know that and expects their smokes player to always be passive when omen isnt as good at site anchoring or lurking as viper and should be together with his team in the main push or enabling aggressive defender sided plays

#23

Mkael_J_Kabo0s3

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yea agents can honeslty fit between roles and none of them are purely stuck to one

#44

Anguibok

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Thats why I have 2 nomenclature, one based on class (Since beside Sage it's kinda work well) :

Duelist : Entry in space
Initiator : Prepare to take space
Sentinel : Keeping space
Controller : Slicing space

And one based on 5 main spell of every composition (Dive, Flash, Reveal, PassiveInfo, Smoke), and I basicallt have 3 type of class based on that :

Classical (One agent do each role)
Hybrid (4 agent do 5 role because one agent like Skye, Yoru, Geko or Vyze do 2 thing, open up anoter pick, usually a ctrl)
0X (0M = no mobility/dive, 0F = no-flash, 0R = no reveal, 0S = no-senintel)

#26

Two_Percent

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Sage isn’t a senti?

Ok viper isn’t a controller, Reyna and iso aren’t duelists, phoenix is an initiator, tejo doesn’t even have a class, and omen is every single class

Classes exist not as a set of rules, but as a general set of ideals of playstyles

#45

Anguibok

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Since 5.07 they give a different identity to the flash that belong to duelist and to initiator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLTG0jumoJQ

So Reyna/Phoenix is good at entry and their flash is characteristic to duelist (Able to selfflash), Viper slice space a controller, Tejo have reveal like most initiator (Initiator have 3 characteristic, reveal, dezonig and flash specific to initiator), and Omen is the most hybrid one, but not enough to be consider as a something else than controller.

"Classes exist not as a set of rules, but as a general set of ideals of playstyles" even with that definition... the playstyle of Sage (grouping backline) isnt the playstyle of sentinel (lurk)

I made a small definition upper, this kinda work well :

Duelist : Entry in space
Initiator : Prepare to take space
Sentinel : Keeping space
Controller : Slicing space

#28

Hades_Loves_Rb

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Sage isnt a sentinel? Raze is a duelist.

#32

Serath

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yoru is initiator

#48

diswaco

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sentinel should be split up into three archetypes: pure stall(sage, deadlock, vyse) and info/stall(cypher, kj)

and then whatever the fuck chamber is(pure stall by virtue of aim)

#49

goofyahh1447

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off topic, do you think chamber was a duelist in his prime? I always thought it was a braindead claim since his tp has always been a passive ability and didn't allow him to take space forward. What's you opinion?

#50

bees

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no you're right, people who said that have no understanding of roles beyond "take fights = duelist"

#52

Anguibok

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Really hard to say, but to me a duelist need something that can help them to entry, and today it can be 3 things (maybe we will have more in the future) :

Diving (Neon, Yoru, Jett, Raze)
Self-flash (Yoru, Reyna, Phoenix)
Sheild (Iso)
Chamber have none, so I wount consider has a duelist.

Chamber have passive info that stand all the round like every other sentinel (Beside Sage), so he does stay in Senitnel definition to me

The paradox is maybe that the agent that have the strongest ability to take fight is Sentinel, if you fight them in the garden, then they are the best to "take duels" because of their deadly traps

#53

frizery

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lya bagguete croissant

#55

Anguibok

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script :

+++Hi vlr, When I do my statistics, they are always something that can disturb you : is that don’t put Sage in Sentinel despite this is how Riot class her, what I do is that I create a separate catégorie just for her. I hope one day I’ll be able to class her somewhere, but today, I just want to explain why I don’t class her as a sentinel.

When it come to duelist, Initiator and controller, they are no debate, it’s a consensus : everybody will agree that every agent that are classed by Riot in thoose class are correct. But when it comes to Sentinel it’s another huge debate. We had this debate about Chamber, that that some people consider him more as a duelist than a Sentinel, but today, we are gonna talk only about Sage.

So here is the definition Riot used for the Sentinel, lets see if Sage fits :
The abilities of agents under this role focus on defensive play, with emphasis on supporting the rest of the team through providing intel, anchoring down sites, and preventing the enemy from flanking.

First « defensive play » it’s debatable, half for her kit, and by that I mean her ult, and her signature is way harder to use it in defense than in attack… But since she has a good stall, like a lot of smokers, it’s not fully absurd to make her check this box.
Then « supporting the rest of the team through providing intel » : She have almost none of that, the only thing she has, is that when someone break her wall, it can be see it on the minimap, but keep in mind the wall it doesnt even stay for the whole round countrary to other sentinels that all have at least one spell that give passiv info that stay all the round, and to be frank her wall is more used to stall than to take info.
Then « anchoring down sites » Sage is probably one of the worst agent to do that, anchoring mean you have more chance to be alone, and her ult and her signature ability is good only used on mates.
And finally « preventing the enemy from flanking » here Sage have absolutely nothing… And dont even think about using your wall for that, thats suicide, it litterrally block your ability to rotate, it’s like walking on a lego and start to cut your leg to stop the pain in your toe.

Now in comparaison let’s now look at Controller definition by Riot :
The abilities of agents under this role allow them to assist their teammates by cutting enemy vision, taking control of an area, and forcing enemies into choke points.
So :

assist their teammates by cutting enemy vision : She kinda got 1 spell for that for potentially the same duration than a real smoke, countrary to Neon, Cypher or Jett, it’s definitly not enough, but it’s a start.
taking control of an area : her Orb and her Wall is really good at doing that.
forcing enemies into choke points : She is the only agent that can create a new choke point thanks to her wall
It’s not perfect, but it seems to me that she fit more better to the controller definition given by Riot, than the Senitnel one… But since she isn’t a smoker, people will be too chocked if I put her in controller.

Some people gonna argue « But Sage is the best agent to stall, thats why she should be consider as sentinel » I’m sorry but stalling isn’t specific to sentinel, controller do it even better thanks to smokes, mollies, and many other debuff. In defense who is gonna stall the mid ? Your sentinel in B site ? No… You will ask your controller to put a smoke to earn time, your sentinel will have all his stuff on site ready to kill someone with it. Sure you stall in a specific situation with a Sentinel, but in defense your sentinel a primarly use to trap people.

your sentinel have already placed th it’s your controller that will use his ability to stall, your sentinel will primarly use their stuff to create deadly trap

And here we have exactly what is, to me, what define the best a sentinel ? Sentinel can set dedadly trap all alone, and take unfair duel on a place where they put their setup :

Killjoy could make a lot of damage with nanobot plus molly and shoot a weaken agent, that need to run for his life.
Cypher can kill someone that cant see him with his trap and his cage,
Vyse can lock someone in a place where he cant go back, where moving give him damage, and even flash him to be sure he have no chance to win the 1v1
Deadlock can wait someone trigger her trap to kill a stunned agent, and all her util can give her a free kill for her ult if used well.
And finally Chamber was the definition of taking an unfair duel on a place where he have his setup.
In comparison, what Sage can do ? Sit on her wall and just hope they gonna be surprise by the fact that she is on it ? No…. Countrary to every other sentinel, she isn’t able to set deadly trap that give her a unfair duel, she cant even use any spell at the start of the round like every other sentinels can, she has to play in reaction like every smokers in defense, and in attack she cant lurk like other sentinels can.

So yeah, vlr, Sage isn’t a smoker, no debate about that, but since smoker and controller isn’t the same word, then maybe we can consider having 2 different definition for 2 different word, and if I decide to use Riot’s definition, then, we can consider Sage being a non-smoker controller, the same way, breach is a non-reveal initiator. I suppose not, and even myself consider it’s too early to take any decision, but I want to hear your opinion vlr, would you allow me to consider Sage as a non-smoker controller ? Anyway byyye.