Sage isn't a Sentinel

#1

Anguibok

If you already saw one of my video you can see when i do 1talk about "archetypes" (For exemple 2 init, 2 ctrl, 1 duel, is an archetype, 1 sent, 1 ctrl, 1 duel, 2 init is another archetype), I don't count Sage as a Sentinel, and I create 4 brand new archetype just for her....
Today I wanted to explain why did I took that decision :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVLVKI-rQ58

The video is kinda important, one day I will have to take a choice, between count her as a Sentinel, alone, as a Controller, ~~or even as a initiator~~, and I kinda hope the argument you can bring to me can help me to take a decision about all of that.

~~Script coming soon~~

#2

Cabo_

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and viper is a sentinel

#4

Prasinos

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Astrea a Initiator.

#35

svionSKR

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jett is controller

#3

m4

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Hey, I know that you're really trying here and I definitely support your journey. But you are confusing the role with how you play her.

Just to spot check your video, you don't view Sage as a Sentinel because you don't use her as intended. You mention in the video that she doesn't provide intel. Well that's just because you relate the word "intel" to agents that trigger something that let's people know. But the inverse of that is her wall.

If something placed on the map tells you where people are then a wall can tell you where people are not. If you block off a certain direction the enemy cannot come from that direction unless you have an agent that can get above the wall. You might think you've have a gotcha moment with this but all Sentinels can be avoided.

But once again, I think we need more people like you trying to come up and rationalize the game. Keep at it and feel free to argue with me as that is how I learned a lot of the time.

#11

Kevn

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I don’t come to this site often anymore because people could never have this type of conversation. Great reply to the original post, love to see it. These forums need more people who love to talk about the actual game.

#12

Anguibok

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Thanks for your constructive reply ! Disagreement is the best to make the knowledge of Valorant advance. And I advice people to counterargument <3 I definitely more people that argue that she is a Sentinel because I need to finally take a decision and stop creating 4 class just for her

« You mention in the video that she doesn't provide intel. »
Thats true, but that’s not the only thing I mention in the video. The first point I use is the definition on sentinels by Riot and I compare it to the definition of controller, and I come to the conclusion that the definition of Controller fit a little bit more to her than the definition of Senitnels.
In fact my points are :

Her spells doesnt fit the definition of sentinel and more of the definition of a controller
The argument you can use to say she is a senintel isnt specific for senitnel and also work for controller
The way she is use doesnt fit the Sentinel rôle
I think thats the combination of that 3 argument that make me think if I have to put her somewhere it has to be in controller more than in sentinel

Now the question is more : Can you name few reasons why I should consider her as a sentinel (The argument need to be specific to sentinel and to not work for controller, and to also fit to tradictionnal controllers), and I think this could be the turning point.

#22

m4

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No problem. Let's go ahead and set the stage for the definitions of each from Riot.

Definitions from Riot for Sentinel and Controller:

Sentinels are defensive experts who can lock down areas and watch flanks, both on attacker and defender rounds.
Controllers are experts in slicing up dangerous territory to set their team up for success.

I think where a lot of people get caught up is when what you see is the only way you can play an agent. One of the unfortunate things about the educational community in Valorant is that they are linear. I think people believe that pro players are just players with a longer list of rules than them. That's simply not even close.

There is literally so much space for creativity that we miss this and shun people who think differently. Some of the most interesting esports experiences have been creativity driven. I'm not sure if you know about Brax but he's from Counter-Strike and is known for throwing his pistol up and pretending its a flash. I don't think you could find a single pro at the time who would think that was a good idea. Same thing with Stewie2k, I don't think you could find a single person who was throwing flashes throw smokes like he did. These are expressions of creativity and not rules.

And while there is a lot of value in learning the basics, you shouldn't let that be the end all of your journey. The truth of the matter is that once you get to the pro level, you punish people based on rules you think they follow. Sometimes plays look absolutely dumb but they work because the opponent literally thinks you would never do something like that, because it's so dumb.

All this to say that Sage being a Sentinel is murky by design. It is an expression of creativity from the Riot devs on the concept of a Sentinel. We saw the same sort of rejection of Deadlock. When Deadlock first came out the whole scene decided she was bad because her Sonic Sensor didn't act like a Cypher trip. That's the whole point. Developers do not want to copy and paste the same designs over and over. Sometimes they overdo it and need to tone it back but in general, I don't think people want Cypher coming out 100 times as a new agent when there is simply nothing new about it.

The reasons I would consider Sage a Sentinel are her wall denies space and vision. She can control space with her slow ability. I think those are the two things that make her primarily a Sentinel. Her Resurrection and Heal are more selling points for a certain type of playstyle. A playstyle for playing passive.

For me, controllers offer a gamble and don't lock anything down. Pick any agent and their abilities offer you the chance to attack or defend an area but at a price. Those price points are vulnerability and damage. Outside of Astra's slow, most controllers are there to make it risky for you to attack. I know this seems similar but controllers don't focus on attacking your movement, they focus on attacking your health pool.

But I think at the end of the day, the beautiful part is, you can choose to play any agent the way you want. I think that the base of this game is essentially Counter-Strike and the agent is just a flavoring or an enhancement on top.

#36

Anguibok

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« When Deadlock first came out the whole scene decided she was bad because her Sonic Sensor didn't act like a Cypher trip. »
Deadlock doesnt sound as a good exemple, she was really bad after release and did receive a huge amount of up and still stand under 10 % Pickrate even after all that huge ajustement, I kinda agree with the community saying she would be viable if her sensor would work as a trip. People where getting mad because she couldn’t properly cover the flank, and for a senitnel it’s something even Chamber could do. I was studying the meta at this time and in proplay they are a consensus about having 1 diver, 1reveal, 1 smoker in every team, and then we had 3 places for 2 profil (Sentinel, 2nd controller, Flasher), and when you dont fit any of the 3 first catégorie, then you really need to be strong to find a place in the meta, and being a Sentinel that cant cover flank make it even more hard, and since she have nothing special that make her OP, I don’t think even all this up she will be meta (And it’s a shame because I love her design and lore)

« The reasons I would consider Sage a Sentinel are her wall denies space and vision. » doesnt denying space and vision being exactly the definition for a controller ? Sage is an expert of slicing dangerous territorry thanks to her wall, as you said in your definition of controller. ^^

« She can control space with her slow ability » Sentinel are good to own a space they have, while controller are good to make a separation between 2 space, her orb sounds more in the 2 catégorie, it allow you to stall and will more work than an Astra pull or a molly than controller have (And the only exemple that exist in senintel is KJ molly, Deadlock gravnet is another case since the spell doesnt stay on the ground countrary to all those other spells)

« Her Resurrection and Heal are more selling points for a certain type of playstyle. »
I definitly agree on that.

« A playstyle for playing passive. »
In atk, the one that have to play passive is the solocontroller, he is not allowed to take any risk because if he is dead the round is over, and in defense nobody can really be passive.

« For me, controllers offer a gamble and don't lock anything down. » I disagree on that, smoke lock space and force people to respect them, smoke is as good at locking space than any sentinel utility (Maybe even better, since most of sentinel util can be broken really fast). Sure you can cross a smoke, but you will need to use util to cross, because if you dont it’s not a gamble, you are in a situation where you will probably die, kinda the same way that you will probably die if you run into Sentinel util, without breaking them or baiting them x)

« Outside of Astra's slow, most controllers are there to make it risky for you to attack. I know this seems similar but controllers don't focus on attacking your movement, they focus on attacking your health pool. » To me it’s the exact countrary, as I say in the video, role of sentinel is to setup deadly trap that threaten directly your healthpool and all their kit is turn in that direction without the help of anyother agent. Sometime I just feel a common subconscient definition is « A defensive agent like controller, but that dont have smoke » T.T Can you develop more on the mouvement thing ? You might have an intresting point here cause that true that a common point sentinel kinda have, but I dont think it can be seen as a main definition (because if slowing was the turning point, then Astra and Harbor would be seen as sentinel), but to be frank, the mouvement ability is kinda minor, since all thoose slow are meant to be destroy, and doesnt play a huge part on the kit.

« But I think at the end of the day, the beautiful part is, you can choose to play any agent the way you want. »
Sure ! But, my question is here not to say to anyone how they should play any agent, I’m a huge fan of the creativity using Sage, wish is to me the best agent in term of gamedesign (Because it’s allow to support a lot the team, but also to be sometime selfish thanks to the creativity the wall be bring !
The question on how I class Sage is here for one reason : I need to class her when I’m doing my « archetype math » if you already saw one of my vid about analysis you probably now what I mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXpGC-wAsZE but to be short I analysis the winrate of everycomposition in fonction of their number of sentinel, initiator, controller and duelist, and Sage is the only one I cant class T.T

#27

Two_Percent

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Controllers need smokes, sages wall is less for blocking vision and more for blocking movement

The point of a controller is to provide smokes, as well as secondary util

The point of a senti is to provide stopping power and hold space, either through passive info, traps, or walls.

Sages slows and wall helps her to maintain space, but unlike a controller doesn’t allow her to deny enemies from it, unless you’ve already taken it

In summary a controller uses smokes primarily to deny an enemy from entering a space that wants to be taken, whereas a senti uses util to hold off enemies from a space that belongs to your team

#31

Shadow_Monarch

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"Deny entry" vs. "Hold off enemies"
Basically Controller vs Sentinel, I guess.

#37

Anguibok

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"Controllers need smokes"
Not based on riot definition, as I say in the conclusion of the video, if they are 2 different word for smoker and controller, then why couldn't we have 2 definition ? Breach is the only initiator that have 0 info and he is still considered as an init.

"The point of a senti is to provide stopping power and hold space, either through passive info, traps, or walls."
But smokes also help to hold space and stop power, and they almost all have few spell more to do that. There we kinda come back to "Sentinel is a defensive agent that don't have smokes", wish can be a good definition I suppose, but I still have issues committing on this (the good point with that definition is that I don't have to argue anymore that 2nd ctrl > sentinel)

"In summary a controller uses smokes primarily to deny an enemy from entering a space that wants to be taken, whereas a senti uses util to hold off enemies from a space that belongs to your team" wait but with that definition, doesn't Sage fit more the "deny ennemy from enter" than the "hold off" no ?

#5

kaninv

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Please keep making videos, I think any analysis is good and interesting plus it develops the game in ways people may not have thought of before

#30

Anguibok

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Thanks ! I need to hear that kind of things :D Starting a channel is hard and this kind of message is truly helping a lot !

Don't hesitate to make your own !

#6

Vaaero

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She's not a trap sentinel by any means, and she isn't very good at filling any role really, but that doesn't mean she can't hold space and anchor sites as is the technical definition of a sentinel.

#38

Anguibok

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She have half of her kit that can't be used all alone (and being alone if one of the aim of an anchor), how could she be a good anchor ?

#7

nobody___100

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sage is a terrible agent in your ranked games and if your teammate locks her you should instantly dodge

#8

H3ENnZ

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Shes alright on split and bind, other than that shes quite trash on other maps

#9

Laundry

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I’d argue she’s better on icebox than on bind

#10

H3ENnZ

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that too but since icebox isnt in the pool yet i didnt include it

#15

nobody___100

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the issue with sage isn't the agent, its the people that play her in ranked
want to heal? please fuckin play skye. want to play senti or have walls? cypher, kj, vyse, deadlock all available. want to be a submissive twink? get out of my ranked games then please.

#17

bbydrix

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playing skye just to heal is worse than picking sage

#21

nobody___100

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but at least there is info util like dog and flash
remember ranked players below diamond (90% of the playerbase) are not intelligent at all
im not saying you should play agents just to heal
but that's the logic of a lot of sage players in general

#29

bbydrix

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if someone picks skye to heal theres like a 90% chance they are not going to use thier other util or are just gonna blind their teammates while flashing lmao

#40

nobody___100

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at least there is an easy dog and easy ult

#14

skibiditoiletfanhuge

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extremely uncommon for a double digit sage

#16

bees

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2nd highest non-mirror winrate in ranked btw

#24

229fn

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yeah because of smurfs :/

#25

bees

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Still the 6th highest in immo+ (and the highest in ascendant)

Regardless of the reason, you're statistically more likely to win if you have a Sage on your team

#34

229fn

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the uwu egirl buff is real

#33

Anguibok

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1st in proplay with 58.5% WR

#39

Anguibok

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Best agent in term of non mirror winrate in split 2 2024 by a good margin (58.5% on more than 300 games)

#13

Adzeu1

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agreed.

#18

Mkael_J_Kabo0s3

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Sage is one of the weaker sentinels but on certain maps is very good. I don't agree with you personally just because she does lock down sites with her wall and slow orbs and supports through her utility very well. You might be right as a pure sentinel, shes admittedly weak since her wall can be broken extremely fast and her slow orbs arent good for deterrence because they don't do damage and can only reveal when people are going through them, but on maps like split and bind and even haven where there are sites with one real entrance her wall and slows become a lethal combo for fending off site hits especially paired with mollies.

I think she fits the role of sentinel, the only part where she may be weak at is holding the flank on attack rounds(but even other agents sometimes don't really fill this role that well with agents like Deadlock and her sensors)

In my opinion she doesn't fit the role of controller because the only real piece of utility she has for cutting of areas is her wall and its very limited in its usage because it requires her body to be near in order to place which weakens which areas she can actually control. The main role of the controller is to block off sightlines and make sites more manageable for attackers to take space, and Sage just isn't really good at that. As opposed to someone like omen who can smoke from across the map and has two of them which allows for greater control of a site

respect the opinion though and if you disagree with me I'm happy to respond to you

#19

SXNFLGJL

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And jett is a controller

#20

V0sotros

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roles in this game are pretty bad tbh, each "role" in this game has like 2 sub roles they could reasonably be split into and I would have very little complaint, like while both being controllers, you play viper and omen in very different ways, but the average player doesn't really know that and expects their smokes player to always be passive when omen isnt as good at site anchoring or lurking as viper and should be together with his team in the main push or enabling aggressive defender sided plays

#23

Mkael_J_Kabo0s3

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yea agents can honeslty fit between roles and none of them are purely stuck to one

#26

Two_Percent

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Sage isn’t a senti?

Ok viper isn’t a controller, Reyna and iso aren’t duelists, phoenix is an initiator, tejo doesn’t even have a class, and omen is every single class

Classes exist not as a set of rules, but as a general set of ideals of playstyles

#28

Hades_Loves_Rb

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Sage isnt a sentinel? Raze is a duelist.

#32

Serath

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yoru is initiator