Was Fnatic Great? Come Prove it

#1

Yuh_aye

ALLAT WARNING

https://www.vlr.gg/393738/fnatic-was-never-great

Below is every falsifiable/verifiable claim from my masterpiece, in order

A1. FNC had an 0-5 record vs zombs
A2. Lock-In was a preseason tourney
A3. Lock-In was meant to showcase the teams in the new franchising system
A4. Lock-In had single elimination format
A5. LOUD exchanged their two best performers from their champs run for rookies
A6. The trophy broke
A7. Liquid beat Fnatic at the end of the EMEA League
A8. Fnatic won the first map vs NRG 13-9, and it was tied 6-6 at the half.
A9. Ardiss had a 0.21 rating on the 2nd map (at the time it was written, with the new rating it actually fell to 0.16)
A10. In the DRX 13-1 game vs Fnatic on Bind, Boaster had 0 kills until the final round and a 0.44 rating (at the time it was written, 0.31 with the new rating system)
A11. PRX played Tokyo with a pubg streamer instead of the Pacific MVP Something, due to visa issues
A12. With something, PRX outperformed FNC at the next three events after Tokyo (Champs 23, Madrid, Shanghai)
A13. At Champs 23, PRX made Grand Finals, beating EG in upper finals and LOUD along the way
A14. FNC did not attend Madrid, and PRX beat both teams that outperformed Fnatic for those slots
A15. At Shanghai, PRX beat EDG and lost (super closely) to 100T
A16. At Shanghai, FNC were winless
A17. PRX beat GEN.G domestically
A18. FNC lost to FUT at shanghai
A19. At Tokyo, EG's Star player Demon1 had visa issues
A20. Demon1's addition to EG's roster turned around their season
A21. Demon1 would go on to be the Champs MVP
A22. Due to Visa Issues, Demon1 was unable to practice with his team until a last minute return
A23. Across every map played between EG and FNC in both series, the only maps that didn't come down to two rounds - which is the closest possible win margin in valorant - were Fracture for EG and Lotus for Fnatic

Below is every claim that was implied or inferred. These are points that are not statements of fact in and of themselves and are ultimately subjective, but are directly supported or reached by reasoning from evidence above.

B1. Fnatic's first run, in which they made finals and played two close series in a respectable attempt, was their best achievement pre-franchising. This run ultimately had an 0-5 record vs zombs (A1)
B2. They won Lock-In via a historic choke, which had something to do with swapping out 2 elite players with rookies (A5)
B3. Riot didn't think Lock-In was an event as serious as/on par with Masters or Champions (A2 A3 A4)
B4. The first map vs NRG was a fair, solid win, but they stomped the second in large part due to Ardiss trolling (A8 A9 A10)
B5. PRX was significantly nerfed without Something, and there is strong evidence (for about a year straight) that suggested that they would've beaten FNC at Tokyo with him (A11 A12 A13 A14 A15 A16 A17 A18)
B6. Similarly, EG was significantly nerfed by not being able to practice with Demon1 before the event, and there is strong evidence that suggested that they would have beaten FNC at Tokyo if not for that situation ( A19 A20 A21 A22 A23)

Below is every pure opinion expressed, which are not directly backed up by verifiable claim

C1 The rest of the EMEA was garbo leading to the hype train getting out of control - 'Name the 2nd best EMEA team of 23' and what they accomplished'
C2. Liquid beating them was a fluke - I don't think I have to defend this
C3. Having a 'hard' format doesn't by itself make an event prestigious or winning it a real achievement, or necessarily select for the best team - 'a random agent select tourney would be by far the hardest event ever hosted, doesn't change that winning it would be a cosmetic achievement, worthless in comparison to events with real formats and qualifiers (ie: designed to select for the best team)'
C4. Saying they only could've lost to LOUD is just an excuse for why they weren't better than any of the top 3 - 'No, they lost because they were the 4th best team and they ran into the 3rd best team, who smoked them.'

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You read the title. Now's your chance to prove me wrong. You have three ways:

For anything in the 'A' section - Prove that its incorrect, source required

For anything in the 'B' section - Make a serious, evidence backed explanation against the conclusion. Be specific

"They wouldn't have beat them at tokyo anyways" isn't enough.

"I don't think they would have beat them at tokyo because their style is a matchup problem" is a start.

"I don't think they would have beat them at tokyo because their style is a matchup problem, which you can see from..." is valid.

Ideal responses will also explain why the "A's" don't support the "B's"

For anything in the "C's" - Just explain what you think is wrong and why

Make sure you include which point(s) you're contesting. Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa.

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All Successful Rebuttals

_amBrian noted that Cauanzin wasn't a rookie (internationally), as he had one international event under his belt from his time at NIP (A5)

#2

Upstander123

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Wait, didn't zombs play back in like 2021-2022? Isn't the "FNC is great" thing due to their 2023 season? idk how zombs matters here

#4

Yuh_aye

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Read the original thats linked at the top

The 0-5 zombs thing (which they made respectable by making it close) was their biggest accomplishment prior to franchising

#3

nobody___100

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allat + tsm didn’t qualify for ascension playoffs

#5

Yuh_aye

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got closer to franchising than optic tho

#11

nobody___100

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who won a masters?

#26

Yuh_aye

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not FREESM 😔

#6

cloudberry

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Only had to read A1 before my gut told me to downvote

#7

Aayan

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bro is the allat warrior

#8

catNmouse

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y0y

W allat

#9

Clucker

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I read it all, good work.

#10

tserc

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A2. - LOCK//IN was a Kickoff tournament, not a pre-season tourney

#12

Clucker

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Valorant themselves said it wasent part of vct no?

#13

tserc

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When did they say that? Last time I checked they didn't say anything about that?

#15

Yuh_aye

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This is wrong. It was an official part of the 2023 circuit, as it was held by riot, but it was 100% pre-season nevertheless

#49

Clucker

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So it wasent apart of vct?

#14

Yuh_aye

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You know I required a source, but I'll let it slide this time

Nope, it was definitely preseason. It was held before all three leagues, Americas, EMEA, and Pacific commenced their seasons. You can easily verify that here.

It's also not very comparable to the Kickoff events of this (2024) year, as those:

Were all officially called Kickoff
Were all held domestically
All included a double elim group stage, a play-in stage, and playoff stage

Now, Lock-In was the first part of VCT 2023 Circuit, but that doesn't prove much. It was a special, one-time showcase tourney meant to show off the teams and the new franchise system and create hype around it (which it did). Even still, it was obviously pre-season, and saying it wasn't because it was the first official part of the circuit is like saying the NBA pre-season isn't preseason because it's on the Official NBA Schedule.

100%, without a doubt, pre-season, and the second line is proof, the rest is just context.

#17

tserc

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Yeah, I did forget about it not being officially called Kickoff

But I was a bit confused because it said opening event of the Valorant Champions Tour, so I thought that the season officially started during LOCK//IN

#88

Azzelastia

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Lock in was as invitational mickey mouse

#16

catNmouse

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If fnatic so great, why they didn’t win champs? why they didn’t go to madrid? why they didn’t win shanghai?

#63

Er3ngenes1s

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alt acc?

#66

catNmouse

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rhixcal shitpost

#18

Two_Percent

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It literally doesn’t matter what you say; they are one of the most decorated, tenured orgs in valorant. Their players individual skill is extremely high, and the only reason they are catching strays after this year is due to the fact that they actually tried innovating and pushing forward the standard for how they play, resulting in mixed results early on. Fnatic goes in the history books as one of the greatest teams of all time, and disagreeing is objectively incorrect.

#20

Yuh_aye

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Fnatic goes in the history books as one of the greatest teams of all time, and disagreeing is objectively incorrect.

Prove it then

#22

thenutoriousPRO

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they won 2 masters back to back and have been to almost every single event

#24

Yuh_aye

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Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

SEN CLEARS FRAUDNATIC

2 > 1*

EVEN REDGAR CLEARS

1> 1*

#28

thenutoriousPRO

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fnatic has two though

#42

Yuh_aye

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1*

#19

thenutoriousPRO

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Fnatic 23 is definitely one of the best teams of all times, although a little overrated

its worth adding i would say prx with cgrs was better than with somehting

#23

catNmouse

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That is one hell of a take, why do you think so?

#25

Yuh_aye

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thats bait brother

or he's on fentanyl, 1 of the 2

#29

thenutoriousPRO

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its not bait its an opinion i have had since last year prx with cgrs were better

#30

catNmouse

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i’d like to hear why

PRX had better firepower and became grand finalists the next event, the reason they got second is because the skye meta and map pool heavily favored their play style, there weren’t many teams that favored retakes which makes their life so much easier

#33

thenutoriousPRO

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cgrs is more flexible
forsaken is a better duelist than something
and cgrs was partially igl, which prx desperately needed

his fragging could have been better but he was a very intelligent player

#34

catNmouse

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Do you think benkai would’ve been better than CGRS? Also I had a feeling you were going to say something along the lines of flexibility and yes i do agree f0rsaken is an insane duelist player

#35

cloudberry

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This is a valid take tbh. Respect

#21

shahnour

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a whole lotta yapping; but since Valorant started, Fnatic has been the kings of EMEA due to their consistency. (yes even with the roster changes)

#27

Average_NA_fan

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flukenatic kekw

#31

_amBrian

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Not gonna try and convince you otherwise, I'm just gonna list out some of the points I have a problem with

A5 (and by extension B2). If we're counting Cauanzin as a rookie then you'd also have to count Leo as one given that both made a Masters event on previous teams (Cauanzin played in Reykyavik for NiP and Leo played in Copenhagen for Guild).
A6. Even the best quality trophy can be broken if the shipping company is shit at their job
A9/10: People have bad games?
C3. A random agent select tournament would be too RNG to have a quantifiable value as a major event. LOCK/IN's single elim format is not that; it punishes any mistake with elimination. Up until that point, the only other team to win an event without dropping a series was Sen in 2021 (which most people agree wasn't very high quality Valorant), and Acend (which I personally think only happened because of 7 gift-wrapped rounds to Keyd Stars, also had the same problems as Sen's run)

Bold = idk how you want us to put a source on this

I'll add more once I get a proper read

#32

Hades_Loves_Rb

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Up until that point, the only other team to win an event without dropping a series was Sen in 2021

not true lmao

Ascend won champs dropping 2 maps in the GF, 1 in groups and 0 series: https://www.vlr.gg/event/449/valorant-champions-2021/playoffs

#38

Yuh_aye

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A5 - Turns out you were right about cauanzin, I did not know that. The Point in B2 is still very strong regardless as he obv was not on the level (experience or accomplishment-wise, never been to a final) as either of the people he replaced. But I am fair and will update (see the bottom)

A6 - It still broke, so it's still factually correct. Also notice I never used this in a "B" to reach a serious conclusion. I just kept it in for symbolism.

A9/10 - First of all, its all still factually correct. Secondly, that's definitely not an ordinary bad game. A guy who had 2 kills in a 13-1 loss had a little more than double his (original) rating. Rating might also not capture walling your own team on a site exec.

C3 - The metaphor is perfectly valid. Single elim has the exact problem you described. It's not a format designed to select for the best team. Riot obviously went for it to be able to run an event with every team (no qualifiers) logistically (cuz it would obv take forever). From Riot's official valorant esports page, emphasis mine:

We wanted to kick off the next era of the VALORANT Champions Tour with an epic tournament that brought together the entire VALORANT community. With LOCK//IN our goal is to lay storytelling groundwork for the 2023 season while thrilling fans with high stakes competition. To build the largest tournament in the history of our sport, we had to consider different formats that could accommodate the largest number of teams we've ever had at a single event. After reviewing many options, it became clear that to be as globally inclusive as we wanted, a single elimination format was the direction we needed to take. While we think this is the best way to kick off the 2023 season, we plan to return to a double elimination format for future international events.

Not enough to convince you? What about single elim + preseason (Rosters with literally 0 match experience prior to the event)? Not enough? How about anecdotal evidence: Do you think the strength of Furia's performance vs FNC and KC's vs LOUD at Lock-in were solidly representative of their true strength and should be taken as a serious result?

#36

reaper_rega08

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The level of nitpicking you do would also prove that Aspas is not the GOAT of Valorant. It also would mean that Tenz mechanically is atrociously overrated. The fact that FNC is one of the very few teams who have made it to almost all the masters and champions events itself makes them one of the most consistent teams to exist. Only other who are close to match FNC is PRX. PRX have had better placements than FNC in few events. But their consecutive wins in 2023 does even them out.
And also I don't understand your obsession with FNC. FNC has never been in discussion as much as SEN OR PRX.
You are talking about a team which has been dominating Tier 1 since 2021, while your own is struggling to make out of Tier 2 even though they were the first ones in the Valorant scene. That's equally pathetic and hilarious for a franchise as big as TSM struggling to make it to Tier 1.

#39

Yuh_aye

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So If I put on an EDG or GENG flair or something you would agree that Fnatic were never great right?

No? Then try addressing even a single point, you have thus proven nothing with this other than that you could yap about aspas and tenz who weren't even mentioned.

If you want to prove FNC was great and prove me wrong, you have a direct way of doing that and a huge list of points I presented to contest.

#59

reaper_rega08

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Doesnt matter because EDG are good but not better than FNC or PRX. GenG was not existent until this year.

#60

Yuh_aye

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EDG is the best team in the world, something fnatic has never been. Even Ange1 and Redgar are more accomplished than Fraudnatic.

#61

reaper_rega08

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You should be a comedian. Your jokes are good.

#37

DBStudios

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A6. The trophy broke

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

why did i find this so fucking funny

#40

localkoolkid

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2 trophies, 2 regionals, Boaster 2, Derke 2, Leo 2, Alfa 2, Chronicle 3, have always been big hitters throughout all of Valorant and have never been bad, mediocre at worst. This org has achieved more then any other team ever in Valorant and years from now may still be up there even if they did not win a trophy that whole time (which they very possibly could do) also TSM are ass.

#41

Yuh_aye

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Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

SEN CLEARS FRAUDNATIC

2 > 1*

EVEN REDGAR CLEARS

1> 1*

#44

localkoolkid

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SEN are frauds, they also were dead for 2+ years

REDGAR is a plumber and is now homeless

Team Super Mid is ass

By this logic X10 > Optic all time (2 > 0) and Optic were never great

Team Sells Most is out of ascension against goddamn Adverso

Also TSM are ass

#45

Yuh_aye

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Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

Dead for two years and STILL more accomplished than Fraudnatic, 2 > 1*

Homeless Plumber and STILL more accomplished than Fraudnatic - your words not mine, 1> 1*

FREESM and FRAUDNATIC HAVE BEEN #1 IN THE WORLD FOR EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME - 0

#43

n1cf

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allat + alfajer

#46

prasad97

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Bro get some rest, You definitely need it.

#47

Selfim

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I can easily look at the responses and say that every single person who would normally write an essay about these threads are not even posting in here shows how it is a waste of a time to answer your ass. Not trying to be mean here but i could make anything a ".... was never great" situation if i nitpicked as much as you do trying to expose FNC

#48

Yuh_aye

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Is pointing out that PRX couldn't play with their star player who was the best player in pacific some small nitpicked point?
Is pointing out that EG couldn't practice with their star player some small nitpicked point?

I could summarize virtually everything in 4 lines:

Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising
Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons
EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo
What happened at Tokyo and immediately afterwards - and for a while after that - strongly suggests both of those teams at full strength were better than Fnatic.

Does this chain of reasoning feel like nitpicking?

I challenge you to make a thread on why Tenz wasn't the best player in the world at Reykavic the same way I did this. That shit will get ripped apart instantly because it's obviously untrue. The only thing that I've been successfully challenged on is a minor point about Caunzin being a rookie. The central thesis from those 4 lines still holds strong, whether or not you feel its a waste of time to answer (which in some sense it is, because you're attempting to prove something that is untrue with all the facts already laid out in front of you)

#50

911dot

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Not reading allat

#51

xNolva

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It’s not this deep. They have a trophy, other teams don’t. They got 2/3 trophies in 2023.

#54

Yuh_aye

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1*

#52

idkmanwth

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do you have nothing else to do? plus vlr is ike 5% of valorant community, only if you said this during a vct eve- oh wait, they wont let you in dumbass

#53

Yuh_aye

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Literally have a picture - that I made rob moore take - of myself with tarik while holding a 'free pancada' sign at Americas Kickoff.

But that doesn't matter and Fnatic has never been the best team in the world

#57

idkmanwth

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whatever you say, spot!

#55

catNmouse

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Ngl I respect your dedication to making these thesis statements, keep it up

#56

Yuh_aye

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This is probably the last one unless I decide to do one about neon being broken, but probably not because this post is generally enough:

https://www.vlr.gg/402114/rate-my-idea

#58

my-dad-ate-my-toes

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I kinda respect the dedication to hating icl

Still nothing on my hatred for babybay tho

#62

Er3ngenes1s

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allat of illogical yapping from the illogical yapper. reported this thread for very bad baiting. + bro has ZERO stars even after 1000 posts 💀

#64

Skoepdoep2

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i didnt read anything cuz they still won 2 masters and did well at champs all in one year. + they own EMEA regionally. Even this year they won 2 out of 3 regionals

#72

Yuh_aye

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Fraudnatic are less accomplished than Ange1 and Redgar, who both got 1 legit

1 > 1*

#105

Skoepdoep2

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what are you on about? fnc won 2 throphies last year. Kick off brazil which was imo best game ever against loud and the masters after that.

also ange1 and Redgar havent won emea regionally in a long time

#106

Yuh_aye

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1 International Major > 1*

#108

Skoepdoep2

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they have 2 muppet. they won 2 internationals... and valo doesnt really have majors. All international events are hosted by Rito and masters and champs = majors if you want to use that word.

#109

Yuh_aye

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damn thats crazy, but the mickey mouse clubhouse still don't count

1>1*

#110

Skoepdoep2

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what are you on about bro. You just mad cuz they shat on Loud cuz Loud sucks doggy dick

#107

Skoepdoep2

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what are you on about? fnc won 2 throphies last year. Kick off brazil which was imo best game ever against loud and the masters after that.

also ange1 and Redgar havent won emea regionally in a long time

#65

samhatts

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A4. Lockin had a single elim format. I'm not disputing the actual claim but how much it matters. The playoffs for the World Cup is single elim but no-one starts going "L format" because of that, it has prestige because every country has a chance to win. Lockin had every vct team at the time and they all had the chance to win, if a team lost but were apparently better, their team should have gone and won then shouldn't they.

Single elim just requires your team not to choke, the only downside is that the people who come second, third and fourth might be wrong as they may have been beaten by the winner previously.

If any team at lockin like Nrg Loud c9 or 100T should of won(I name these teams because you're an americas cringer) why didn't they, because they played worse than the team that beat them or crumbled

#68

Yuh_aye

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Firstly, you acknowledged the point is true. Nothing has been refuted.

The playoffs for the World Cup is single elim but no-one starts going "L format" because of that, it has prestige because every country has a chance to win

real sports != esports, And are you sure about no-one?. Most events that aren't double elim have to do with either logistics or physicality or because of variance that is uncontrollable. The world cup would be extremely long (logistics)(brings the city its hosted in to a halt). It's not a good idea to have multiple boxing bouts to decide the champ or for the superbowl matchup to be multiple times for athlete safety reasons (physicality). If you ran or swam the 200m final multiple times, you could feasibly have multiple winners. How do you decide which is the 'real' outcome? You can't, so you just run it once (variance). etc.

Single elim just requires your team not to choke

Could say the exact same thing about random-agent select.

If any team at lockin like Nrg Loud c9 or 100T should of won(I name these teams because you're an americas cringer) why didn't they, because they played worse than the team that beat them or crumbled

Do you think the strength of Furia's performance vs FNC and KC's vs LOUD at Lock-in were solidly representative of their true strength and should be taken as a serious result? What about GENG vs LOUD? or C9 vs PRX?

#79

samhatts

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Do you think your average negative iq England fan thinks about logistics, fans are stupid yet you still don't hear people talk about the limitations of the format.

Random agent select is completely different as players specialise in certain agents, single elim just means you play a normal series 1 time.

At the time of them playing, yes. You could say the same of masters Madrid and kickoff.Edg played pretty badly in masters Madrid but won champs at the end of the year, that doesn't take away anything from Sentinels winning.

#84

Yuh_aye

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Random agent select is completely different as players specialise in certain agents, single elim just means you play a normal series 1 time

You still just have to not choke though? Or do you now understand the difference between a format designed to select for the best team vs one that doesn't?

At the time of them playing, yes

We don't actually know who was good/bad at the time of Lock-In. That's why you need a regular season to establish yourself, a qualifier to identify the top contenders, and a format designed to select for the best team. That's how we know FPX was the best team at the time of Copenhagen, LOUD the best at Istanbul, etc. Without those things you have a wild west. Do you actually seriously believe 2023 KC's (might be the worst franchise team ever) performance vs LOUD was a serious result, achieved under conditions of competitive integrity?

#98

samhatts

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Yes you do have not to choke, if not choking wasn't a requirement for winning, prx would have 2 trophies.

Yes you do know how good teams were at the time of lockin they played at lockin, Yes teams evolve but then it wouldn't be at the time would it? Whether it is representative to the rest of the year is meaningless, if they lose, should have put in more practise beforehand like sen and fnatic did.

Edit: also I like the way you debate this is fun🥰

#99

Yuh_aye

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Yes you do have not to choke, if not choking wasn't a requirement for winning, prx would have 2 trophies

You missed the point. You can't just dismiss the problem of a non-competitive format by saying it just "requires your team not to choke" like you did. That's why I compared it to a Random Agent Select tourney, because the exact same dismissal can be made.

Whether it is representative to the rest of the year is meaningless

Actually, if the tourney has serious issues, and the results don't match up with the experience of the rest of the year, that's extremely strong evidence that we shouldn't have taken it seriously. There's a reason we didn't crown 100T the best team in the world just cause of RBHG, or whoever else woulda won it. To actually prove you're the best, you have to be the best under conditions of high competitive integrity (do it at a real event)

#100

samhatts

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How is it a non competitive format? Just don't lose? Having pressure not to lose always sounds pretty competitive to me.

People put in effort before the year starts in their teams to be good. Sentinels and fnatic weren't good out of no-where, they put in a lot of effort behind the scenes. It not lining up with the rest of the year shouldn't take anything away from them. If teams didn't play as well cause they weren't as practised at the start of the the year, sounds like work ethic/skill issue on their part. Lockin and Madrid are both real events

#101

Yuh_aye

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people wonder why Lock in is 🐁 when their best defense of the format is 'Just dont lose'

LMAO

Maybe RIOT can host a Lock-In 2.0 where you only play a single elim bo1, and instead of the full game its just the first pistol round. The team that wins it can be called the best in the world right? Just don't lose amirite?
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SEN wasn't considered the best until they won madrid, no matter how they looked in the offseason. Right after kickoff and before Madrid who was the best team in the world? Nobody knew, but there were 8 contenders. SEN became the best when they proved it vs the best, under conditions of competitive integrity.

#111

samhatts

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When your favourite team loses in the lower bracket loses you don't cry and say it should have been triple elimination. They just shouldn't have lost as I say. Same applies for single elim. Single elim allows a team to at least show one of the best parts of their map pool. Single map only allows for 1 map both teams are average at. The Single elim is still a complete package whereas the stupid formats you suggested below don't show which team is better.

Yes, my point was that the rest of the year doesn't matter there, good for sen.

Edit: Just thought I'd clarify, I do still like double elim over single, it gives fun story lines like zeta running their way through the lower bracket

#67

Soddalele

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I feel like when u have haters like u and babysasuke that just cant stop typing about them, there is no way u havent been extremely dominant/great!

+allat aint reading, saving mental

#71

Yuh_aye

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I guess Xeppa, Dephh, and Russ must be the greatest players of all time

I also don't understand why so many Fnatic flairs take so much pride in not being able to read, but if you think of who they support, it actually does make sense in a way

#69

ionlyHave1Zuni

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Everything is right. No objections really

#70

SuperRoss

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0/8 bait of the lowest quality

#73

smthlikeyou11

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most of these points are true but they dont contradict fnatic being great lmao
its like saying why was SEN never great because they fell off in 2022-2023
did they fall off in 2022-2023? yes. are they still one of the greatest orgs? yes.

#74

Yuh_aye

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Difference is SEN was undeniably the best team in the world at some point (twice) in time. Fnatic.....

#80

K4ziuHa

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nothing burger

#75

RzqoFoxie

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Sounds like a whole lot of crying when Fnatic is the most profitable org in valorant along with the most dominant year ever

#76

Yuh_aye

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all that profit and they've still never been #1 team ever 🥶🥶🥶

#78

K4ziuHa

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they proved to be the #1 best team (at the time) 2 times

#82

Yuh_aye

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you have a chance to seriously prove that. Go for it. The great wall of text remains strong, with the only flaw being a minor point about cauanzin being a rookie

#83

K4ziuHa

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they won the tournaments dumbo
sEn WaS nEvEr ThE bEsT aT mAdRiD tHeY aLmOsT lOsT tO TH and LoSt To GENG, tHeY nEvEr PlAyEd PRX wItH Jingg tHe BeSt RaZe OAT

#85

Yuh_aye

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The only non 🐁 event they won they only won because the other best teams at the time couldn't practice with or play with their best players

#81

RzqoFoxie

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Dumbest sht any human has ever said.

#77

eszett

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allat

#86

Demon1_The_GOAT

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A2-A4 proves and shows that Lock//IN was a very fun but still a Mickey Mouse tournament.

Prime FNC and Prime LOUD are the greatest teams along with Prime EG in history so far.

#89

Yuh_aye

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Prime FNC was never great

#90

Demon1_The_GOAT

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They're Top2 with EG 2023. During Prime FNC era, no teams actually had a chance besides LOUD only. Thats a fact.

#92

Yuh_aye

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scroll up to the top of ur page to see why thats wrong

#93

Demon1_The_GOAT

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No point in reading other opinions. There were only 2 things that pro teams feared in Valorant history, Prime FNATIC and Aspas. That's a fact.

#87

4ch1p4p4

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Pls drop that EDG flair, your mere existence is a defamation towards the 2024 Valorant world champions...

#91

K4ziuHa

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true he is also a certified bandwagoner

#94

Yuh_aye

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Your wish is granted :)

#95

4ch1p4p4

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Ain't no way blud changed his flair just because of my obviously troll comment... XD (even though I'm a FNC fan I would never hate you for having a different opinion, you just seem delulu)

Actually now it's even worse, since LOUD is the only team in 2023 (excluding a fluke TL) that managed to beat prime FNC 2 times

#96

Yuh_aye

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I was moreso inspired by your use of the phrase "World Champions"

#97

4ch1p4p4

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We'll also become "World Champions" one day :)
At least I hope so...

#102

doomvor

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Alright, I’ll pick it apart. (this took so long)

Also, I’m not going to argue about dumb stuff like “mickey mouse tourney” or whatever.

If you want evidence for something, ask. I’m too lazy to link every single one of my claims.

(Oh, and A8-10 and B4 makes no sense to me, what are you arguing? And A6 made me laugh so hard)

First:

2024 Valorant is very different from 2023 Valorant. 2024 requires a much more aggressive playstyle, you need to do mid round reclears, more fakes, etc… to be able to do well. 2023 Valorant was more about the info game. Being able to check where they are, deny/gain information, etc… was the most important things. FNC were really good at 2023 Valorant. They mostly suck at 2024 Valorant. It’s a big reason why they started to do much worse in 2024 vs 2023. (Though part of it is also the anti-strat). Every Top 2024 Team was very good at knowing when to take space/push out. Every Top 2023 Team(outside of maybe PRX) was good at the info game.

This directly leads to the problem of that 2024 performance is not a good indicator of what might have happened in 2023, which makes A14-18 and B5 mostly irrelevant. (Part of this is an opinon, but I think it makes sense.)

The other one major point is that LOUD’s playstyle hardcounters FNC. FNC like to play slow, have one person at every contestion point, and then decide what to do based on what the opponents give up. (E.g, being able to rotate from hearing where PRX pushed out, or using Utility to find them doubled up somewhere, or where the op is) But, LOUD like to do solo/double pushes, which means LOUD is often taking 2v1s or 1v1s before FNC can get set up, which in turn make the round spiral out of control. This is why DRX 13-1’d FNC, if you watch the game, DRX just kept doing these solo/double pushes, getting a man advantage, then each player of FNC feels pressured to make a play to even it, but fails, making the round worse and worse. Combined with Val’s snowball problem, it just became a complete disaster.

FNC also hard counters PRX, but this time you can probably guess why. I don’t think I need to explain it, and PRX got absolutely stomped on by FNC at Tokyo, I do not believe for a second PRX could’ve won with something unless he somehow becomes god and gets three every round.

Essentially, at champs, I think:

FNC <= EG
FNC << LOUD
FNC >> PRX

They simply got unlucky and played LOUD twice. (C4)

One other thing that bothers me:

I understand people will call Lock//In a fake tourney. But even so, FNC won Lock//In AND Tokyo. FNC winning Lock//In isn’t a fluke. They had the ability to win twice.

Even if you want to argue about LOUD choking and EG not being fully preped, FNC then would’ve got 2nd both events. (FNC >> PRX like I said earlier). It’s not a fluke. They were at worst the second best team in the world for two events in a row.

Now, to address each point:

C1-3; agree.
C4, explained above

B1 - not sure what this is supposed to mean
B2 - would still be second in the world at worst, and being able to comeback is also partly from them, not just LOUD choking. (Also, maybe this is wrong, but I feel like the two new guys were actually the most impactful during the choke? I forgot tho)
B3 - don’t care
B4 - ?
B5 - explained
B6 - maybe, I would lean 55/45 or 60/40 EG

A's are all facts, but some of them I don’t understand and/or don’t think support the argument all that well.

#103

Yuh_aye

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You failed to meet the conditions for a successful rebuttal (see the last paragraph, but you did it generally too).

But since this clearly took a lot of effort, I'll give a semi-serious reply

I'm gonna stick to everything between 'first : ' and 'essentially at champs' so I keep this under the character limit, but I will get to the rest in follow-up

2024 requires a much more aggressive playstyle, you need to do mid round reclears, more fakes, etc… to be able to do well. 2023 Valorant was more about the info game. Being able to check where they are, deny/gain information, etc… was the most important things. FNC were really good at 2023 Valorant. They mostly suck at 2024 Valorant. It’s a big reason why they started to do much worse in 2024 vs 2023. (Though part of it is also the anti-strat). Every Top 2024 Team was very good at knowing when to take space/push out. Every Top 2023 Team(outside of maybe PRX) was good at the info game

Everybody did mid round reclears and fakes in 2023 (fns had somebody retaking the wrong site in 2023).

Alot of these points are too general (by what basis can you say denying/gaining info the most important thing, or even more important in 2023 vs 2024?).

But the bigger problem is that some of them are straight up wrong - 2024 was by far less aggressive than 2023, until arguably the emergence of Neon at the very end.

The biggest factor being the nerf of skye killing double duelist comps. Compare the LA grand final vs the Madrid grand final

LA: 6 double duelist comps - Both on Split, PRX on Ascent, Both on Bind, PRX on Lotus (counting chamber as a duelist because lets be real, he is and always was, 1 trip ain't stopping a site hit)

Madrid : 2 double duelist comps - GENG on Breeze and Split (and at shanghai finals they only kept the double duelist on breeze, which was the only 1 in that entire series)

Besides the death of double duelist, 2024 Valorant was extremely retake heavy - SEN's Madrid run was a shining example of this.

Furthermore, we saw stuff like no duelist comps altogether become popular on icebox. So your claim isn't really matching reality.

This directly leads to the problem of that 2024 performance is not a good indicator of what might have happened in 2023, which makes A14-18 and B5 mostly irrelevant. (Part of this is an opinon, but I think it makes sense.)

The more time further out, the less weight we can put on it, obviously. But let's imagine for a sec if the shoes were on the other foot. Imagine If Alfajer (at the time EMEA MVP) (and eventual Tokyo MVP) wasn't at Tokyo with Fnatic. Then imagine a pubg streamer replaced him, not even a pro or a streamer that mainly plays val. Then, PRX smacked FNC around. Finally, imagine at the very next tournament (just a month later with no matches in-between), FNC with Alfajer is better than PRX, and this trend continues for a long time afterwards, regardless of meta change. What do you think this implies?

The other one major point is that LOUD’s playstyle hardcounters FNC. FNC like to play slow, have one person at every contestion point, and then decide what to do based on what the opponents give up. (E.g, being able to rotate from hearing where PRX pushed out, or using Utility to find them doubled up somewhere, or where the op is) But, LOUD like to do solo/double pushes, which means LOUD is often taking 2v1s or 1v1s before FNC can get set up, which in turn make the round spiral out of control. This is why DRX 13-1’d FNC, if you watch the game, DRX just kept doing these solo/double pushes, getting a man advantage, then each player of FNC feels pressured to make a play to even it, but fails, making the round worse and worse. Combined with Val’s snowball problem, it just became a complete disaster.

Even if we assume it was purely LOUD's playstyle which led to their victory (they were also just better). It's not like LOUD is the only team capable of doing those things, or that other playstyle's can't be successful vs FNC. In fact, the most direct evidence that we have suggests PRX's playstyle is successful against Fnatic. Further still, PRX are famously successful against the EMEA playstyle, with a literal reputation as the 'European Reapers'.

FNC also hard counters PRX, but this time you can probably guess why. I don’t think I need to explain it, and PRX got absolutely stomped on by FNC at Tokyo, I do not believe for a second PRX could’ve won with something unless he somehow becomes god and gets three every round.

Total Bullshit. Re-read everything in the paragraph above. There is literally nothing to support this view. In fact, every single piece of evidence available (B5/A11-A18) contradicts this view. And this exact type of low-effort sentence was banned for a reason in the rules (and your exact argument was used as an example). 'I don't need to explain it' Then you can't prove Fnatic was great.

Will do a part 2 sometime soon

#112

doomvor

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I don't have the time to link evidence or type a long reply right now, I'll do that in the afternoon.(on my phone rn)

The "most direct evidence" you are claiming is that PRX beat FNC about a year before, when they had completely different teams. That is not a good example at all.

PRX being good against other EMEA teams is also completely pointless, teams have different playstyles and unless EVERYOBE from EMEA had the same playstyle this means nothing.

The FNC >> PRX part I thought was obvious. PRX are an extremely agressive team, but FNC's defaults are able to counter very well and also ensure they have the info to make a quick retake/attempted site hold.

#114

Yuh_aye

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I'll get to #113 sometime later, because as you definitely understand from writing it, it takes a lot of time and energy.

But this one will be relatively short so I'll do it now

The "most direct evidence" you are claiming is that PRX beat FNC about a year before, when they had completely different teams. That is not a good example at all.

That is quite literally the most direct evidence you can have. It's the same teams with 7/10 of the players being identical. Any other comparison would have to be more indirect (how X did against Z vs how Y did against Z).

PRX being good against other EMEA teams is also completely pointless, teams have different playstyles and unless EVERYOBE from EMEA had the same playstyle this means nothing.

Not everybody from the same region plays EXACTLY the same, but it's not controversial that there are general characteristics that define the regional playstyles. EMEA is famously slow placed. That almost certainly has something to do with PRX's success against those teams (unfamiliar/uncomfortable with that type of pace). From Sideshow's casting of PRX vs Guild :

"The bull against the matador. And we'll see if the matador ends up getting gored at the end of this... PRX are gonna charge in, play aggressive, get most of their kills in the first 10 seconds of the round, and plant within 20 ... no one else in the tournament plays like that"

Compare that with the plant time from the previously linked video (60 seconds), literally 3x the pace.

The FNC >> PRX part I thought was obvious. PRX are an extremely agressive team, but FNC's defaults are able to counter very well and also ensure they have the info to make a quick retake/attempted site hold.

This is kinda just restating/summarizing your previous points, so i'll just do the same. That didn't work in their last matchup - which is the most direct comparison you can get (also if you listen to their comms video, especially on bind, you can hear them get kinda tilted by it "I don't know what is going on" "This is so funny... They will do this for 10 more rounds") - and this general playstyle has been mostly unsuccesfull as well.

#115

doomvor

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I'll get to #113 sometime later, because as you definitely understand from writing it, it takes a lot of time and energy.

But this one will be relatively short so I'll do it now

Of course. I completely understand.

That is quite literally the most direct evidence you can have. It's the same teams with 7/10 of the players being identical. Any other comparison would have to be more indirect (how X did against Z vs how Y did against Z).

If anything, I would rather use indirect evidence. You're comparing two games in different metas with different teams over a year apart. There is so much different, it's basically two completely separate games. Indirect isn't much better, but it's not as bad as these two games are.

Not everybody from the same region plays EXACTLY the same, but it's not controversial that there are general characteristics that define the regional playstyles

Fair enough.

That almost certainly has something to do with PRX's success against those teams (unfamiliar/uncomfortable with that type of pace).

Sure, but it's always, playing against somewhat similar teams doesn't mean you're going to be good against that specific one. Being good against EMEA is not the same as playing FNC. PRX got absolutely crushed at Tokyo(Basically their only rounds was when they were one loss away from losing the map), and even when they DID beat FNC it was a close match, when FNC had worse support players.

also if you listen to their comms video, especially on bind, you can hear them get kinda tilted by it "I don't know what is going on" "This is so funny... They will do this for 10 more rounds"

Can you link the video? Not sure which one you mean here.

this general playstyle has been mostly unsuccesfull as well.

In 2024, yeah, but it was the best strategy in 2023.

#116

Yuh_aye

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If anything, I would rather use indirect evidence. You're comparing two games in different metas with different teams over a year apart. There is so much different, it's basically two completely separate games. Indirect isn't much better, but it's not as bad as these two games are.

If anything the chamber meta favored fnatic. A good chamber could absolutely tear you apart if you weren't careful (not exactly how PRX plays). On top of that, Forsaken wasn't a great chamber, Derke was.

Sure, but it's always, playing against somewhat similar teams doesn't mean you're going to be good against that specific one. Being good against EMEA is not the same as playing FNC

Original point from #103 that started this chain is claim that we have reason to believe PRX's playstyle is successful/matches up well against fnatic's. If you have a good track record against teams that play similar, that's evidence in favor of that point, even if it's not a magical 100% guarantee.

PRX got absolutely crushed at Tokyo(Basically their only rounds was when they were one loss away from losing the map)

This is almost circular reasoning:

Arguing over how PRX would have done vs Fnatic at Tokyo if they weren't nerfed -> Discussing Sub-topic about how their styles matchup -> You don't think PRX is a bad matchup (or think Fnatic is advantaged) -> you back this up by talking about how they did at Tokyo against nerfed PRX

when FNC had worse support players

Not gonna pretend for a second that they're as good as their replacements, but it's not like they were bums either. They're still active t1 pros (as of the end of last season), not like they were playing streamers...

Can you link the video? Not sure which one you mean here

https://youtu.be/2YVsAMmnaBY?si=EPKjx-kFxMD1Hsli

In 2024, yeah, but it was the best strategy in 2023.

I was talking about the european playstyle being generally unsuccessfull against PRX's here

#118

doomvor

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I was waiting to see if you'd respond to #113, but since you haven't, I might as well write the response before you think I'm no longer doing this.

If anything the chamber meta favored fnatic. A good chamber could absolutely tear you apart if you weren't careful (not exactly how PRX plays)

Eh. It depends. Although a good chamber COULD be really strong, PRX also showed that they could easily beat chamber when needed.

On top of that, Forsaken wasn't a great chamber, Derke was

f0rsakeN was a perfectly respectable chamber, and actually outfragged derke on map 1 in their match.

Original point from #103 that started this chain is claim that we have reason to believe PRX's playstyle is successful/matches up well against fnatic's.

Huh?

I've been trying to explain that FNC >> PRX due to playstyle.

PRX >> most of EMEA is fair, but PRX vs FNC isn't the same, especially during 2023, as most of EMEA that year was complete shit.

Arguing over how PRX would have done vs Fnatic at Tokyo if they weren't nerfed -> Discussing Sub-topic about how their styles matchup -> You don't think PRX is a bad matchup (or think Fnatic is advantaged) -> you back this up by talking about how they did at Tokyo against nerfed PRX

Not sure what this means.

I think FNC is a really bad matchup for PRX and FNC basically always wins, especially during 2023.

Not gonna pretend for a second that they're as good as their replacements, but it's not like they were bums either. They're still active t1 pros (as of the end of last season), not like they were playing streamers...

I hate that people call cgrs a streamer when talking about him.

It's true that he used to stream.

But he quickly learned during Tokyo and managed to become a perfectly respectable player during Tokyo. He wasn't a complete liability or anything, he was just slightly worse than average.

Okay, I'm going to try to simplify everything now, as it's getting kinda confusing and hard to tell what's going on.

Earlier in this thread, you mentioned:

I could summarize virtually everything in 4 lines:

Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising
Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons
EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo
What happened at Tokyo and immediately afterwards - and for a while after that - strongly suggests both of those teams at full strength were better than Fnatic.

I'll address each point, and use some stuff I've been saying.

Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising

Means absolutely nothing. It's true, but what people think is going to happen has no real effect on what will happen.

Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons

Not going to debate this too much, but you have to keep in mind FNC got first and would've been top two even with said asterisks in both Tokyo and Lock//In.

EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo

Fair, but FNC is always >> PRX imo even at full strength.

Again, even if EG were better and would've won, FNC still gets 2nd.

What happened at Tokyo and immediately afterwards - and for a while after that - strongly suggests both of those teams at full strength were better than Fnatic.

The "while after that" is the main thing wrong.

As #113 shows, 2024 is VERY different from 2023. 2024 success/failures are not a good representation of what would've happened in 2023.

All right, I'll sum it all up:

FNC won BOTH Lock//In and Tokyo.
Even if you want to argue FNC wouldn't have won both because of the choke and EG, then FNC are still top 2 in both events
FNC >> PRX due to matchup problem, even with PRX at full strength
2024 results are not good indicator of 2023 results, meaning there is no way to properly compare PRX and FNC, and the matchup problem is very evident from 2023.
LOUD >> FNC due to matchup problem
FNC played LOUD twice, they got unlucky.
Worst case scenario, while being reasonable:

Lock//In - 2nd (LOUD wins)

Tokyo - 2nd (EG wins)

Champions - 3rd (EG and LOUD would beat FNC)

FNC are clearly a top team of 2023.

#119

Yuh_aye

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I'll get to 113 within 3 days, promise (inshallah)
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Eh. It depends. Although a good chamber COULD be really strong, PRX also showed that they could easily beat chamber when needed.

Easily is a bit of a stretch

f0rsakeN was a perfectly respectable chamber

I agree, he definitely wasn't bad, but when you think of the top chambers you think of Yay, Ardiss, Cryo, Derke, and even Laz before thinking of Forsaken

Huh? I've been trying to explain that FNC >> PRX due to playstyle. PRX >> most of EMEA is fair, but PRX vs FNC isn't the same, especially during 2023, as most of EMEA that year was complete shit

Yes but your reasoning for why FNC >>> PRX playstyle was circular (see below). In their only previous encounter PRX won, and PRX has generally done well against european teams across multiple years, not just 2023.

I think FNC is a really bad matchup for PRX and FNC basically always wins, especially during 2023

So not only was your argument for this circular, but we've gone full circle and started at the beginning.

Your evidence for why FNC would beat full-strength PRX at Tokyo due to matchup/style advantage was solely based on Tokyo. That is circular reasoning (or at least super close).

I hate that people call cgrs a streamer when talking about him. It's true that he used to stream. But he quickly learned during Tokyo and managed to become a perfectly respectable player during Tokyo. He wasn't a complete liability or anything, he was just slightly worse than average.

Well, he was basically a streamer until that point. He wasn't even in challengers, despite trying. And even though he (miraculously) exceeded what you could've reasonably expected from him, he was still bottom 5 statistically for the whole tournament.

'Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising' Means absolutely nothing. It's true, but what people think is going to happen has no real effect on what will happen

That line is a quick summary from the original post('Fnatic was never great') of pre-franchising Fnatic. Basically just says Fnatic was never great (#1 in the world) at any point pre-franchising. Nobody really argues that anyways, which is why the bulk of it focuses on franchising.

'Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons' Not going to debate this too much, but you have to keep in mind FNC got first and would've been top two even with said asterisks in both Tokyo and Lock//In

Yeah and? Doesn't matter if LOUD, NAVI, NRG, DRX or even C9 won it. It's mickey mouse regardless, and therefore I don't take any result from it seriously.

'EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo' Fair, but FNC is always >> PRX imo even at full strength.

and we've come full circle

'EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo' Again, even if EG were better and would've won, FNC still gets 2nd

2nd is good, but not enough to be great. Winning matters. The only reason Mako isn't the unquestionable goat controller is because he couldn't win.

Lock//In - 2nd (LOUD wins)

Lock-in doesn't matter regardless

Tokyo - 2nd (EG wins)

Could even be 3rd, behind PRX and EG

Champions - 3rd (EG and LOUD would beat FNC)

You know we actually know what happened at champs without hypotheticals, right? All teams were full strength, they got 4th.

FNC are clearly a top team of 2023

True, but they were never great. Gotta definitively prove you're the best, like others before and after you (SEN, GMB, LOUD, EG, etc) to be in that convo

#113

doomvor

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I have time now, so I'll link my claims.

But the bigger problem is that some of them are straight up wrong - 2024 was by far less aggressive than 2023, until arguably the emergence of Neon at the very end.

Also note # of duelists has nothing to do with how aggressive a team is. It's somewhat correlated, but not a direct factor.

And I heavily disagree with you pulling up Madrid stats. The first tournament always has an unclear meta. The second has a mostly developed meta. The third has the fully grown meta but also teams trying to counter the meta.(In general) It's why I heavily prefer using Tournament Two for any general claims about that year.

Alright, let's look at Gen.G vs TH Shanghai Finals. Therfore, Neon is still bad. Both Gen.G and TH did well in two tournaments, so I think it's good comparison for the overall. I'm going to be looking at map 5, as I think it was the best demonstration. Also, Split was played in both games.

I'll go round by round. (Only paying attention to not eco rounds)

Map 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff7qug1GFds

Round 1: Gen.G start by instantly throwing a two man fake toward B. However, their fake doesn't work, and it trades 1 for 1. After this fighting, we can see that TH IMMEDIATELY go for a midround reclear of Ramp.

Round 3: TH DON"T do a reclear of B-Main until later, and therefore don't have the proper rotations and lose the site and the round

Round 4: Gen.G explode out of buy phase, insta rush

Round 5: Gen.G push up mid and claim B-Heaven in five seconds. This quickly transitions into a swift execute.

Round 6: Gen.G push up B-Main. TH immediately fights for A-Main in response and get a kill. They now win the round. (First round win = First time mid round aggro)

Round 7: Gen.G just bomb it up B and quickly exec.

Round 8: TH once again doesn't midround clear B-Main fast enough, can't hold onto A as they don't have the rotates and therefore lose the site and the round

Round 10: Gen.G quickly take Ramp control, but it's a fake. TH completely take the bait, instead of possible taking control B-Main, and yet again lose the site and the round.

Round 11: First round where aggro isn't super evident. However, TH DID take early B-Main control, and therefore were able to stack A. Again, when they take space aggressively they win the round.

Round 12: Gen.G run it up B-Main, but Munchkin is unable to find anything B and they can't break past the site hold.

Round 13: First round where I think there isn't much aggro at all. Gen.G did somewhat control A-Main, but not really.

Round 14: Gen.G has no info or control of any of the map, and they lose the opening kill. They fail to get the trade and falls it to a 2v3. However, Gen.G are able to clutch it out.

Round 15: Both teams fight for A main control. In response, Pati quickly takes B-Main for free. However, TH never makes any pressure elsewhere and therefore Gen.G stacks A. They win the round.

Round 16: TH fight for Mid, then B-Main. Gen.G lets them and denies the space, knowing that they cannot allow them control.

Basically, from this game, we saw:

two(Maybe three if you count munchkin trying something A) fakes
nine times where Gen.G pushed somewhere quickly from the start of the barrier without masking it
four times a team was punished for not reclearing fast enough or didn't take space
Three times a team DID do a midround reclear or fast space taking which led to a win.

This is clearly very aggressive.

Let's compare it to Map Two of FNC vs EG Tokyo Finals.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yui8ZT-LM0c

Round 1: EG quietly take mid, However, FNC have a trap prepared. It kinda fails, and they trade 2 for 2.

Round 3: Both teams are fighting for B-Main. HOWEVER, note that both sides are masking it. They both are trying to deny information. EG quickly leave and tries to fight mid, but FNC has the read. Again, notice how FNC are hiding their footsteps.

Round 4: FNC are once again giving up no information and setting up a mid trap. For some reason, it isn't sprung. (Not sure why) After FNC fall down a player, they DO NOT attempt a midround reclear or anything similar. Instead, they play to the sites. HOWEVER, EG gave up the info they were pushing A too early, and FNC have the players in time and manage to defend the site.

Round 5: First round something aggressive happens right off the barrier. (Round 4 has sky dog first and they didn't take mid, they let dog first clear mid). However, FNC once again have a trap(without giving it away until it was sprung). EG never pretend they are going somewhere else, so FNC stays on A.

Round 7: EG take mid somewhat fast. FNC do not do any reclears, they let EG have the space and play toward the sites. However, this fails, as demon1 gets a kill and EG now has the man advantage. FNC gambles A, guesses wrong, and lose the round.

Round 8: EG finds the op with their util, and kill him. After Boaster gets killed as well, FNC yet again do not try for a reclear. They play to the sites and lose the round.

Round 9: EG goes aggro again, taking mid quickly. FNC DOES maintain B-Main control this time, but the dog mid was a little too late and EG get to go A through vents.

Round 10: wow, EG goes aggro yet again! They attempt a trap play B, but no one gets caught. FNC YET AGAIN do not do any midround takes. They let EG walk up mid for free, and cannot hold the site.

Round 11: This time, FNC takes the offensive. They push B-Main early, find no one, but can't rotate in time. They win the round though, from their fast retake thanks to info.

Round 12: FNC does the same thing, but EG are waiting. The round falls apart for EG though.

(stopping here, this is taking too long, it's been like an hour =/)

So, now, we have:

0 fakes
Three times EG went aggro without masking it
Basically 0 reclears
Two times where being aggro on defense led to a win.

These numbers are nowhere close to 2024. Is saying Info and Aggression the most important thing in that year an opinion? Sure. But there is evidence backing it up.(read my comments per round) This evidence also proves 2024 is much more aggressive.

and this trend continues for a long time afterwards, regardless of meta change

This part is what's wrong. The Meta Change IS what made FNC not good this year. If FNC played the same way they did in 2023 in 2024, they would've been crushed. Why do you think FNC did so bad this year? Sure, you can argue Champs, but 2024 does not apply.

#117

catNmouse

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great thesis statement

#120

Yuh_aye

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At long last
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Also note # of duelists has nothing to do with how aggressive a team is. It's somewhat correlated, but not a direct factor.

Yeah i'm not gonna lie, this is a pretty crazy take. I know I'm supposed to back this up with something, but in this case I think it's pretty self-evident why double duelist is inherently more aggressive. I think virtually everybody who follows val comp would say that double duelist being more aggressive than single/none is non-controversial.

And I heavily disagree with you pulling up Madrid stats. The first tournament always has an unclear meta. The second has a mostly developed meta. The third has the fully grown meta but also teams trying to counter the meta.(In general) It's why I heavily prefer using Tournament Two for any general claims about that year.

The exact same thing I said is still true even if we use your methodology.
Tokyo - 2 double duelist comps (Note: EG basically ran triple duelist on Bind) in a 3 game series
Shanghai - 1 double duelist comp in a 5 game series

R1-> R12 (not putting it all for readability)

So one of your big premises for why 2024 is more aggressive is by looking at the finals of Shanghai vs Tokyo, and comparing how many time they went aggro without masking it. One big problem with this analysis is that this aggressiveness is part of GEN.G's specific gameplan for for how TH plays split, where Benjy is usually isolated and trusted to 'get his' as a site anchor (with a player like benjy thats usually a good bet), but GENG realized this and realized they could overwhelm him by pushing the pace (Raze scatter nade to break his trips, double satchel and dunk on him). It's basically rinse and repeat of this specific strat that led to that difference in that stat. And don't take my word for it, take Sliggy's, from his analysis :
https://youtu.be/N-KeWu482yw?si=Tn2j39p4xzDDns9x&t=1100

At least some of your analysis (I'll be honest, I didn't go through everything) is a bit shaky/misleading too, for example:

R10 GENG vs TH, you say they (TH) don't take control of B-Main, but they literally did take control of B main. They start the round by instantly burning a (non-replenishing) Skye flash and One-waying the entrance (which missed lmao). The flash hits nothing, and since in their eyes they have B-main control - Boo's sitting behind a smoke at the entrance - they go and rotate the other players to A where GenG made alot of noise. Boo ends up losing a duel to Meteor and GENG gets a free site plant.

R11 GENG vs TH Then, the next round, they start by doing the exact same thing, one-waying and skye-flashing B main (the skye flash is a few secs delayed from the round before, but same thing basically). Even though this is the same thing, only now do you call it aggression. Then, the same thing happens, they send players to rotate A after hearing nothing. Instead of fighting back for that space, GENG just hits A, runs into a viper ult and site stack, and loses. The irony is that though you attribute this round to aggression from TH, they did the same thing as last round, but objectively were less aggressive - Boo straight up leaves B main and backs up to site to jiggle spot, giving up B main for free unlike the round directly prior! In some sense GENG were less aggressive as well, because if they fought back for that space or made their presence known instead of just instantly leaving, it's plausible it would have pulled rotates and their site hit would have worked better.

On top of that, you stated you wouldn't include ecos, yet you included R11 (a mastercard thrifty), because it purportedly helped your case about the importance of aggressiveness in 2024 (even though it was less aggressive from both sides in fighting for B main compared to the last round, in which you ignored entirely that they fought for B main), but excluded R9, where the aggression gets punished, this time in mid.

So in summary, in the span of three rounds (R9-R11) you

Selectively ignore an eco that don't help you point, but include the one that does (R9, R11)
Ignore an example of aggression when it didn't work (R10)
Tout an example of an objectively less aggressive version of an identical play as a round won by aggression (R10, R11)

This is not even to mention the nuance of the entire analysis, such as GenG's specific strat to punish benjy.

I don't want to spend the time to write (and you prob don't want to read) a bajillion lines going through every detail of fakes, reclears, aggression, of two games in an entire two year period (look at the wall of text it takes to just break down 3 rounds on just one topic). Let's get back to the big picture, which you summarize in the last lines:

The Meta Change IS what made FNC not good this year. If FNC played the same way they did in 2023 in 2024, they would've been crushed. Why do you think FNC did so bad this year? Sure, you can argue Champs, but 2024 does not apply

If I understand correctly, you're arguing that because the 2023 meta is different from the 2024, meta, comparing performances from the latter and backpropogating them as a judge of strength isn't appropriate. But the problem is, as you allude to, Champs did happen. We saw that PRX at full strength outperformed Fnatic - in the meta that you say favors them. In fact, the only data we have from the 2023 meta of PRX vs FNC's true level (no asterisks) is PRX performing better, they got 2nd, FNC got 4th.

And if you think we can't backpropogate Madrid and Shanghai as further (and yes, weaker, but its still something) evidence because the meta change harms Fnatic, why can't we raise the same objection about how it harmed PRX? if anything the meta change was much more harmful to PRX, we saw them fall off a cliff over the course of 2024, they weren't even a top 2 pacific team by the end, and jingg in particular got basically his career ruined by the changes to skye and raze. If the 2024 meta hurt Fnatic, it almost certainly hurt PRX more, so the trend of PRX being better with something is bolstered by the meta changing and them still being better during those events, let alone their case for how they would've done at Tokyo in the 2023 meta.

#104

catNmouse

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FNATIC would have to either play Pearl or Fracture vs EG which they’ll 100% lose, 55/45 in favor of EG imo