Was Fnatic Great? Come Prove it

ALLAT WARNING

https://www.vlr.gg/393738/fnatic-was-never-great

Below is every falsifiable/verifiable claim from my masterpiece, in order

A1. FNC had an 0-5 record vs zombs
A2. Lock-In was a preseason tourney
A3. Lock-In was meant to showcase the teams in the new franchising system
A4. Lock-In had single elimination format
A5. LOUD exchanged their two best performers from their champs run for rookies
A6. The trophy broke
A7. Liquid beat Fnatic at the end of the EMEA League
A8. Fnatic won the first map vs NRG 13-9, and it was tied 6-6 at the half.
A9. Ardiss had a 0.21 rating on the 2nd map (at the time it was written, with the new rating it actually fell to 0.16)
A10. In the DRX 13-1 game vs Fnatic on Bind, Boaster had 0 kills until the final round and a 0.44 rating (at the time it was written, 0.31 with the new rating system)
A11. PRX played Tokyo with a pubg streamer instead of the Pacific MVP Something, due to visa issues
A12. With something, PRX outperformed FNC at the next three events after Tokyo (Champs 23, Madrid, Shanghai)
A13. At Champs 23, PRX made Grand Finals, beating EG in upper finals and LOUD along the way
A14. FNC did not attend Madrid, and PRX beat both teams that outperformed Fnatic for those slots
A15. At Shanghai, PRX beat EDG and lost (super closely) to 100T
A16. At Shanghai, FNC were winless
A17. PRX beat GEN.G domestically
A18. FNC lost to FUT at shanghai
A19. At Tokyo, EG's Star player Demon1 had visa issues
A20. Demon1's addition to EG's roster turned around their season
A21. Demon1 would go on to be the Champs MVP
A22. Due to Visa Issues, Demon1 was unable to practice with his team until a last minute return
A23. Across every map played between EG and FNC in both series, the only maps that didn't come down to two rounds - which is the closest possible win margin in valorant - were Fracture for EG and Lotus for Fnatic

Below is every claim that was implied or inferred. These are points that are not statements of fact in and of themselves and are ultimately subjective, but are directly supported or reached by reasoning from evidence above.

B1. Fnatic's first run, in which they made finals and played two close series in a respectable attempt, was their best achievement pre-franchising. This run ultimately had an 0-5 record vs zombs (A1)
B2. They won Lock-In via a historic choke, which had something to do with swapping out 2 elite players with rookies (A5)
B3. Riot didn't think Lock-In was an event as serious as/on par with Masters or Champions (A2 A3 A4)
B4. The first map vs NRG was a fair, solid win, but they stomped the second in large part due to Ardiss trolling (A8 A9 A10)
B5. PRX was significantly nerfed without Something, and there is strong evidence (for about a year straight) that suggested that they would've beaten FNC at Tokyo with him (A11 A12 A13 A14 A15 A16 A17 A18)
B6. Similarly, EG was significantly nerfed by not being able to practice with Demon1 before the event, and there is strong evidence that suggested that they would have beaten FNC at Tokyo if not for that situation ( A19 A20 A21 A22 A23)

Below is every pure opinion expressed, which are not directly backed up by verifiable claim

C1 The rest of the EMEA was garbo leading to the hype train getting out of control - 'Name the 2nd best EMEA team of 23' and what they accomplished'
C2. Liquid beating them was a fluke - I don't think I have to defend this
C3. Having a 'hard' format doesn't by itself make an event prestigious or winning it a real achievement, or necessarily select for the best team - 'a random agent select tourney would be by far the hardest event ever hosted, doesn't change that winning it would be a cosmetic achievement, worthless in comparison to events with real formats and qualifiers (ie: designed to select for the best team)'
C4. Saying they only could've lost to LOUD is just an excuse for why they weren't better than any of the top 3 - 'No, they lost because they were the 4th best team and they ran into the 3rd best team, who smoked them.'

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You read the title. Now's your chance to prove me wrong. You have three ways:

For anything in the 'A' section - Prove that its incorrect, source required

For anything in the 'B' section - Make a serious, evidence backed explanation against the conclusion. Be specific

"They wouldn't have beat them at tokyo anyways" isn't enough.

"I don't think they would have beat them at tokyo because their style is a matchup problem" is a start.

"I don't think they would have beat them at tokyo because their style is a matchup problem, which you can see from..." is valid.

Ideal responses will also explain why the "A's" don't support the "B's"

For anything in the "C's" - Just explain what you think is wrong and why

Make sure you include which point(s) you're contesting. Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All Successful Rebuttals

_amBrian noted that Caunzin's status as a rookie was debatable, as he had one international event under his belt from his time at NIP (A5)

Wait, didn't zombs play back in like 2021-2022? Isn't the "FNC is great" thing due to their 2023 season? idk how zombs matters here

allat + tsm didn’t qualify for ascension playoffs

Upstander123 [#2]

Wait, didn't zombs play back in like 2021-2022? Isn't the "FNC is great" thing due to their 2023 season? idk how zombs matters here

Read the original thats linked at the top

The 0-5 zombs thing (which they made respectable by making it close) was their biggest accomplishment prior to franchising

nobody___100 [#3]

allat + tsm didn’t qualify for ascension playoffs

got closer to franchising than optic tho

Only had to read A1 before my gut told me to downvote

bro is the allat warrior

y0y

W allat

I read it all, good work.

A2. - LOCK//IN was a Kickoff tournament, not a pre-season tourney

Yuh_aye [#5]

got closer to franchising than optic tho

who won a masters?

tserc [#10]

A2. - LOCK//IN was a Kickoff tournament, not a pre-season tourney

Valorant themselves said it wasent part of vct no?

Clucker [#12]

Valorant themselves said it wasent part of vct no?

When did they say that? Last time I checked they didn't say anything about that?

tserc [#10]

A2. - LOCK//IN was a Kickoff tournament, not a pre-season tourney

You know I required a source, but I'll let it slide this time

Nope, it was definitely preseason. It was held before all three leagues, Americas, EMEA, and Pacific commenced their seasons. You can easily verify that here.

It's also not very comparable to the Kickoff events of this (2024) year, as those:

1. Were all officially called Kickoff
2. Were all held domestically
3. All included a double elim group stage, a play-in stage, and playoff stage

Now, Lock-In was the first part of VCT 2023 Circuit, but that doesn't prove much. It was a special, one-time showcase tourney meant to show off the teams and the new franchise system and create hype around it (which it did). Even still, it was obviously pre-season, and saying it wasn't because it was the first official part of the circuit is like saying the NBA pre-season isn't preseason because it's on the Official NBA Schedule.

100%, without a doubt, pre-season, and the second line is proof, the rest is just context.

Clucker [#12]

Valorant themselves said it wasent part of vct no?

This is wrong. It was an official part of the 2023 circuit, as it was held by riot, but it was 100% pre-season nevertheless

If fnatic so great, why they didn’t win champs? why they didn’t go to madrid? why they didn’t win shanghai?

Yuh_aye [#14]

You know I required a source, but I'll let it slide this time

Nope, it was definitely preseason. It was held before all three leagues, Americas, EMEA, and Pacific commenced their seasons. You can easily verify that here.

It's also not very comparable to the Kickoff events of this (2024) year, as those:

1. Were all officially called Kickoff
2. Were all held domestically
3. All included a double elim group stage, a play-in stage, and playoff stage

Now, Lock-In was the first part of VCT 2023 Circuit, but that doesn't prove much. It was a special, one-time showcase tourney meant to show off the teams and the new franchise system and create hype around it (which it did). Even still, it was obviously pre-season, and saying it wasn't because it was the first official part of the circuit is like saying the NBA pre-season isn't preseason because it's on the Official NBA Schedule.

100%, without a doubt, pre-season, and the second line is proof, the rest is just context.

Yeah, I did forget about it not being officially called Kickoff

But I was a bit confused because it said opening event of the Valorant Champions Tour, so I thought that the season officially started during LOCK//IN

It literally doesn’t matter what you say; they are one of the most decorated, tenured orgs in valorant. Their players individual skill is extremely high, and the only reason they are catching strays after this year is due to the fact that they actually tried innovating and pushing forward the standard for how they play, resulting in mixed results early on. Fnatic goes in the history books as one of the greatest teams of all time, and disagreeing is objectively incorrect.

Fnatic 23 is definitely one of the best teams of all times, although a little overrated

its worth adding i would say prx with cgrs was better than with somehting

Two_Percent [#18]

It literally doesn’t matter what you say; they are one of the most decorated, tenured orgs in valorant. Their players individual skill is extremely high, and the only reason they are catching strays after this year is due to the fact that they actually tried innovating and pushing forward the standard for how they play, resulting in mixed results early on. Fnatic goes in the history books as one of the greatest teams of all time, and disagreeing is objectively incorrect.

Fnatic goes in the history books as one of the greatest teams of all time, and disagreeing is objectively incorrect.

Prove it then

a whole lotta yapping; but since Valorant started, Fnatic has been the kings of EMEA due to their consistency. (yes even with the roster changes)

Yuh_aye [#20]

Fnatic goes in the history books as one of the greatest teams of all time, and disagreeing is objectively incorrect.

Prove it then

they won 2 masters back to back and have been to almost every single event

thenutoriousPRO [#19]

Fnatic 23 is definitely one of the best teams of all times, although a little overrated

its worth adding i would say prx with cgrs was better than with somehting

That is one hell of a take, why do you think so?

thenutoriousPRO [#22]

they won 2 masters back to back and have been to almost every single event

Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

SEN CLEARS FRAUDNATIC

2 > 1*

EVEN REDGAR CLEARS

1> 1*

catNmouse [#23]

That is one hell of a take, why do you think so?

thats bait brother

or he's on fentanyl, 1 of the 2

nobody___100 [#11]

who won a masters?

not FREESM 😔

flukenatic kekw

Yuh_aye [#24]

Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

SEN CLEARS FRAUDNATIC

2 > 1*

EVEN REDGAR CLEARS

1> 1*

fnatic has two though

Yuh_aye [#25]

thats bait brother

or he's on fentanyl, 1 of the 2

its not bait its an opinion i have had since last year prx with cgrs were better

thenutoriousPRO [#29]

its not bait its an opinion i have had since last year prx with cgrs were better

i’d like to hear why

PRX had better firepower and became grand finalists the next event, the reason they got second is because the skye meta and map pool heavily favored their play style, there weren’t many teams that favored retakes which makes their life so much easier

Not gonna try and convince you otherwise, I'm just gonna list out some of the points I have a problem with

A5 (and by extension B2). If we're counting Cauanzin as a rookie then you'd also have to count Leo as one given that both made a Masters event on previous teams (Cauanzin played in Reykyavik for NiP and Leo played in Copenhagen for Guild).
A6. Even the best quality trophy can be broken if the shipping company is shit at their job
A9/10: People have bad games?
C3. A random agent select tournament would be too RNG to have a quantifiable value as a major event. LOCK/IN's single elim format is not that; it punishes any mistake with elimination. Up until that point, the only other team to win an event without dropping a series was Sen in 2021 (which most people agree wasn't very high quality Valorant), and Acend (which I personally think only happened because of 7 gift-wrapped rounds to Keyd Stars, also had the same problems as Sen's run)

Bold = idk how you want us to put a source on this

I'll add more once I get a proper read

_amBrian [#31]

Not gonna try and convince you otherwise, I'm just gonna list out some of the points I have a problem with

A5 (and by extension B2). If we're counting Cauanzin as a rookie then you'd also have to count Leo as one given that both made a Masters event on previous teams (Cauanzin played in Reykyavik for NiP and Leo played in Copenhagen for Guild).
A6. Even the best quality trophy can be broken if the shipping company is shit at their job
A9/10: People have bad games?
C3. A random agent select tournament would be too RNG to have a quantifiable value as a major event. LOCK/IN's single elim format is not that; it punishes any mistake with elimination. Up until that point, the only other team to win an event without dropping a series was Sen in 2021 (which most people agree wasn't very high quality Valorant), and Acend (which I personally think only happened because of 7 gift-wrapped rounds to Keyd Stars, also had the same problems as Sen's run)

Bold = idk how you want us to put a source on this

I'll add more once I get a proper read

Up until that point, the only other team to win an event without dropping a series was Sen in 2021

not true lmao

Ascend won champs dropping 2 maps in the GF, 1 in groups and 0 series: https://www.vlr.gg/event/449/valorant-champions-2021/playoffs

catNmouse [#30]

i’d like to hear why

PRX had better firepower and became grand finalists the next event, the reason they got second is because the skye meta and map pool heavily favored their play style, there weren’t many teams that favored retakes which makes their life so much easier

cgrs is more flexible
forsaken is a better duelist than something
and cgrs was partially igl, which prx desperately needed

his fragging could have been better but he was a very intelligent player

thenutoriousPRO [#33]

cgrs is more flexible
forsaken is a better duelist than something
and cgrs was partially igl, which prx desperately needed

his fragging could have been better but he was a very intelligent player

Do you think benkai would’ve been better than CGRS? Also I had a feeling you were going to say something along the lines of flexibility and yes i do agree f0rsaken is an insane duelist player

thenutoriousPRO [#33]

cgrs is more flexible
forsaken is a better duelist than something
and cgrs was partially igl, which prx desperately needed

his fragging could have been better but he was a very intelligent player

This is a valid take tbh. Respect

The level of nitpicking you do would also prove that Aspas is not the GOAT of Valorant. It also would mean that Tenz mechanically is atrociously overrated. The fact that FNC is one of the very few teams who have made it to almost all the masters and champions events itself makes them one of the most consistent teams to exist. Only other who are close to match FNC is PRX. PRX have had better placements than FNC in few events. But their consecutive wins in 2023 does even them out.
And also I don't understand your obsession with FNC. FNC has never been in discussion as much as SEN OR PRX.
You are talking about a team which has been dominating Tier 1 since 2021, while your own is struggling to make out of Tier 2 even though they were the first ones in the Valorant scene. That's equally pathetic and hilarious for a franchise as big as TSM struggling to make it to Tier 1.

A6. The trophy broke

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

why did i find this so fucking funny

_amBrian [#31]

Not gonna try and convince you otherwise, I'm just gonna list out some of the points I have a problem with

A5 (and by extension B2). If we're counting Cauanzin as a rookie then you'd also have to count Leo as one given that both made a Masters event on previous teams (Cauanzin played in Reykyavik for NiP and Leo played in Copenhagen for Guild).
A6. Even the best quality trophy can be broken if the shipping company is shit at their job
A9/10: People have bad games?
C3. A random agent select tournament would be too RNG to have a quantifiable value as a major event. LOCK/IN's single elim format is not that; it punishes any mistake with elimination. Up until that point, the only other team to win an event without dropping a series was Sen in 2021 (which most people agree wasn't very high quality Valorant), and Acend (which I personally think only happened because of 7 gift-wrapped rounds to Keyd Stars, also had the same problems as Sen's run)

Bold = idk how you want us to put a source on this

I'll add more once I get a proper read

A5 - Turns out you were right about cauanzin, I did not know that. The Point in B2 is still very strong regardless as he obv was not on the level (experience or accomplishment-wise, never been to a final) as either of the people he replaced. But I am fair and will update (see the bottom)

A6 - It still broke, so it's still factually correct. Also notice I never used this in a "B" to reach a serious conclusion. I just kept it in for symbolism.

A9/10 - First of all, its all still factually correct. Secondly, that's definitely not an ordinary bad game. A guy who had 2 kills in a 13-1 loss had a little more than double his (original) rating. Rating might also not capture walling your own team on a site exec.

C3 - The metaphor is perfectly valid. Single elim has the exact problem you described. It's not a format designed to select for the best team. Riot obviously went for it to be able to run an event with every team (no qualifiers) logistically (cuz it would obv take forever). From Riot's official valorant esports page, emphasis mine:

We wanted to kick off the next era of the VALORANT Champions Tour with an epic tournament that brought together the entire VALORANT community. With LOCK//IN our goal is to lay storytelling groundwork for the 2023 season while thrilling fans with high stakes competition. To build the largest tournament in the history of our sport, we had to consider different formats that could accommodate the largest number of teams we've ever had at a single event. After reviewing many options, it became clear that to be as globally inclusive as we wanted, a single elimination format was the direction we needed to take. While we think this is the best way to kick off the 2023 season, we plan to return to a double elimination format for future international events.

Not enough to convince you? What about single elim + preseason (Rosters with literally 0 match experience prior to the event)? Not enough? How about anecdotal evidence: Do you think the strength of Furia's performance vs FNC and KC's vs LOUD at Lock-in were solidly representative of their true strength and should be taken as a serious result?

reaper_rega08 [#36]

The level of nitpicking you do would also prove that Aspas is not the GOAT of Valorant. It also would mean that Tenz mechanically is atrociously overrated. The fact that FNC is one of the very few teams who have made it to almost all the masters and champions events itself makes them one of the most consistent teams to exist. Only other who are close to match FNC is PRX. PRX have had better placements than FNC in few events. But their consecutive wins in 2023 does even them out.
And also I don't understand your obsession with FNC. FNC has never been in discussion as much as SEN OR PRX.
You are talking about a team which has been dominating Tier 1 since 2021, while your own is struggling to make out of Tier 2 even though they were the first ones in the Valorant scene. That's equally pathetic and hilarious for a franchise as big as TSM struggling to make it to Tier 1.

So If I put on an EDG or GENG flair or something you would agree that Fnatic were never great right?

No? Then try addressing even a single point, you have thus proven nothing with this other than that you could yap about aspas and tenz who weren't even mentioned.

If you want to prove FNC was great and prove me wrong, you have a direct way of doing that and a huge list of points I presented to contest.

2 trophies, 2 regionals, Boaster 2, Derke 2, Leo 2, Alfa 2, Chronicle 3, have always been big hitters throughout all of Valorant and have never been bad, mediocre at worst. This org has achieved more then any other team ever in Valorant and years from now may still be up there even if they did not win a trophy that whole time (which they very possibly could do) also TSM are ass.

localkoolkid [#40]

2 trophies, 2 regionals, Boaster 2, Derke 2, Leo 2, Alfa 2, Chronicle 3, have always been big hitters throughout all of Valorant and have never been bad, mediocre at worst. This org has achieved more then any other team ever in Valorant and years from now may still be up there even if they did not win a trophy that whole time (which they very possibly could do) also TSM are ass.

Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

SEN CLEARS FRAUDNATIC

2 > 1*

EVEN REDGAR CLEARS

1> 1*

thenutoriousPRO [#28]

fnatic has two though

1*

allat + alfajer

Yuh_aye [#41]

Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

SEN CLEARS FRAUDNATIC

2 > 1*

EVEN REDGAR CLEARS

1> 1*

SEN are frauds, they also were dead for 2+ years

REDGAR is a plumber and is now homeless

Team Super Mid is ass

By this logic X10 > Optic all time (2 > 0) and Optic were never great

Team Sells Most is out of ascension against goddamn Adverso

Also TSM are ass

localkoolkid [#44]

SEN are frauds, they also were dead for 2+ years

REDGAR is a plumber and is now homeless

Team Super Mid is ass

By this logic X10 > Optic all time (2 > 0) and Optic were never great

Team Sells Most is out of ascension against goddamn Adverso

Also TSM are ass

Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

Dead for two years and STILL more accomplished than Fraudnatic, 2 > 1*

Homeless Plumber and STILL more accomplished than Fraudnatic - your words not mine, 1> 1*

FREESM and FRAUDNATIC HAVE BEEN #1 IN THE WORLD FOR EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME - 0

Bro get some rest, You definitely need it.

I can easily look at the responses and say that every single person who would normally write an essay about these threads are not even posting in here shows how it is a waste of a time to answer your ass. Not trying to be mean here but i could make anything a ".... was never great" situation if i nitpicked as much as you do trying to expose FNC

Selfim [#47]

I can easily look at the responses and say that every single person who would normally write an essay about these threads are not even posting in here shows how it is a waste of a time to answer your ass. Not trying to be mean here but i could make anything a ".... was never great" situation if i nitpicked as much as you do trying to expose FNC

Is pointing out that PRX couldn't play with their star player who was the best player in pacific some small nitpicked point?
Is pointing out that EG couldn't practice with their star player some small nitpicked point?

I could summarize virtually everything in 4 lines:

1. Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising
2. Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons
3. EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo
4. What happened at Tokyo and immediately afterwards - and for a while after that - strongly suggests both of those teams at full strength were better than Fnatic.

Does this chain of reasoning feel like nitpicking?

I challenge you to make a thread on why Tenz wasn't the best player in the world at Reykavic the same way I did this. That shit will get ripped apart instantly because it's obviously untrue. The only thing that I've been successfully challenged on is a minor point about Caunzin being a rookie. The central thesis from those 4 lines still holds strong, whether or not you feel its a waste of time to answer (which in some sense it is, because you're attempting to prove something that is untrue with all the facts already laid out in front of you)

Yuh_aye [#15]

This is wrong. It was an official part of the 2023 circuit, as it was held by riot, but it was 100% pre-season nevertheless

So it wasent apart of vct?

Not reading allat

It’s not this deep. They have a trophy, other teams don’t. They got 2/3 trophies in 2023.

do you have nothing else to do? plus vlr is ike 5% of valorant community, only if you said this during a vct eve- oh wait, they wont let you in dumbass

idkmanwth [#52]

do you have nothing else to do? plus vlr is ike 5% of valorant community, only if you said this during a vct eve- oh wait, they wont let you in dumbass

Literally have a picture - that I made rob moore take - of myself with tarik while holding a 'free pancada' sign at Americas Kickoff.

But that doesn't matter and Fnatic has never been the best team in the world

xNolva [#51]

It’s not this deep. They have a trophy, other teams don’t. They got 2/3 trophies in 2023.

1*

Ngl I respect your dedication to making these thesis statements, keep it up

catNmouse [#55]

Ngl I respect your dedication to making these thesis statements, keep it up

This is probably the last one unless I decide to do one about neon being broken, but probably not because this post is generally enough:

https://www.vlr.gg/402114/rate-my-idea

Yuh_aye [#53]

Literally have a picture - that I made rob moore take - of myself with tarik while holding a 'free pancada' sign at Americas Kickoff.

But that doesn't matter and Fnatic has never been the best team in the world

whatever you say, spot!

I kinda respect the dedication to hating icl

Still nothing on my hatred for babybay tho