I was waiting to see if you'd respond to #113, but since you haven't, I might as well write the response before you think I'm no longer doing this.

If anything the chamber meta favored fnatic. A good chamber could absolutely tear you apart if you weren't careful (not exactly how PRX plays)

Eh. It depends. Although a good chamber COULD be really strong, PRX also showed that they could easily beat chamber when needed.

On top of that, Forsaken wasn't a great chamber, Derke was

f0rsakeN was a perfectly respectable chamber, and actually outfragged derke on map 1 in their match.

Original point from #103 that started this chain is claim that we have reason to believe PRX's playstyle is successful/matches up well against fnatic's.

Huh?

I've been trying to explain that FNC >> PRX due to playstyle.

PRX >> most of EMEA is fair, but PRX vs FNC isn't the same, especially during 2023, as most of EMEA that year was complete shit.

Arguing over how PRX would have done vs Fnatic at Tokyo if they weren't nerfed -> Discussing Sub-topic about how their styles matchup -> You don't think PRX is a bad matchup (or think Fnatic is advantaged) -> you back this up by talking about how they did at Tokyo against nerfed PRX

Not sure what this means.

I think FNC is a really bad matchup for PRX and FNC basically always wins, especially during 2023.

Not gonna pretend for a second that they're as good as their replacements, but it's not like they were bums either. They're still active t1 pros (as of the end of last season), not like they were playing streamers...

I hate that people call cgrs a streamer when talking about him.

It's true that he used to stream.

But he quickly learned during Tokyo and managed to become a perfectly respectable player during Tokyo. He wasn't a complete liability or anything, he was just slightly worse than average.

Okay, I'm going to try to simplify everything now, as it's getting kinda confusing and hard to tell what's going on.

Earlier in this thread, you mentioned:

I could summarize virtually everything in 4 lines:

Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising
Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons
EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo
What happened at Tokyo and immediately afterwards - and for a while after that - strongly suggests both of those teams at full strength were better than Fnatic.

I'll address each point, and use some stuff I've been saying.

Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising

Means absolutely nothing. It's true, but what people think is going to happen has no real effect on what will happen.

Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons

Not going to debate this too much, but you have to keep in mind FNC got first and would've been top two even with said asterisks in both Tokyo and Lock//In.

EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo

Fair, but FNC is always >> PRX imo even at full strength.

Again, even if EG were better and would've won, FNC still gets 2nd.

What happened at Tokyo and immediately afterwards - and for a while after that - strongly suggests both of those teams at full strength were better than Fnatic.

The "while after that" is the main thing wrong.

As #113 shows, 2024 is VERY different from 2023. 2024 success/failures are not a good representation of what would've happened in 2023.

All right, I'll sum it all up:

• FNC won BOTH Lock//In and Tokyo.

• Even if you want to argue FNC wouldn't have won both because of the choke and EG, then FNC are still top 2 in both events

• FNC >> PRX due to matchup problem, even with PRX at full strength

• 2024 results are not good indicator of 2023 results, meaning there is no way to properly compare PRX and FNC, and the matchup problem is very evident from 2023.

• LOUD >> FNC due to matchup problem

• FNC played LOUD twice, they got unlucky.

• Worst case scenario, while being reasonable:

Lock//In - 2nd (LOUD wins)

Tokyo - 2nd (EG wins)

Champions - 3rd (EG and LOUD would beat FNC)

FNC are clearly a top team of 2023.

Emerald Kaizo hands down for me. It's genuinely so much fun to play and I love it.

Pokemon Run and Bun is really cool as well, with a lot more tactical fights.

However, both of these games are very hard.

I'll get to #113 sometime later, because as you definitely understand from writing it, it takes a lot of time and energy.

But this one will be relatively short so I'll do it now

Of course. I completely understand.

That is quite literally the most direct evidence you can have. It's the same teams with 7/10 of the players being identical. Any other comparison would have to be more indirect (how X did against Z vs how Y did against Z).

If anything, I would rather use indirect evidence. You're comparing two games in different metas with different teams over a year apart. There is so much different, it's basically two completely separate games. Indirect isn't much better, but it's not as bad as these two games are.

Not everybody from the same region plays EXACTLY the same, but it's not controversial that there are general characteristics that define the regional playstyles

Fair enough.

That almost certainly has something to do with PRX's success against those teams (unfamiliar/uncomfortable with that type of pace).

Sure, but it's always, playing against somewhat similar teams doesn't mean you're going to be good against that specific one. Being good against EMEA is not the same as playing FNC. PRX got absolutely crushed at Tokyo(Basically their only rounds was when they were one loss away from losing the map), and even when they DID beat FNC it was a close match, when FNC had worse support players.

also if you listen to their comms video, especially on bind, you can hear them get kinda tilted by it "I don't know what is going on" "This is so funny... They will do this for 10 more rounds"

Can you link the video? Not sure which one you mean here.

this general playstyle has been mostly unsuccesfull as well.

In 2024, yeah, but it was the best strategy in 2023.

The one thing is that it's unclear if Jawgemo will match G2's playstyle and/or calling well. It was always the question for a new player. It's entirely possible it fails.

Hoping for the best tho <3

I have time now, so I'll link my claims.

But the bigger problem is that some of them are straight up wrong - 2024 was by far less aggressive than 2023, until arguably the emergence of Neon at the very end.

Also note # of duelists has nothing to do with how aggressive a team is. It's somewhat correlated, but not a direct factor.

And I heavily disagree with you pulling up Madrid stats. The first tournament always has an unclear meta. The second has a mostly developed meta. The third has the fully grown meta but also teams trying to counter the meta.(In general) It's why I heavily prefer using Tournament Two for any general claims about that year.

Alright, let's look at Gen.G vs TH Shanghai Finals. Therfore, Neon is still bad. Both Gen.G and TH did well in two tournaments, so I think it's good comparison for the overall. I'm going to be looking at map 5, as I think it was the best demonstration. Also, Split was played in both games.

I'll go round by round. (Only paying attention to not eco rounds)

Map 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff7qug1GFds

Round 1: Gen.G start by instantly throwing a two man fake toward B. However, their fake doesn't work, and it trades 1 for 1. After this fighting, we can see that TH IMMEDIATELY go for a midround reclear of Ramp.

Round 3: TH DON"T do a reclear of B-Main until later, and therefore don't have the proper rotations and lose the site and the round

Round 4: Gen.G explode out of buy phase, insta rush

Round 5: Gen.G push up mid and claim B-Heaven in five seconds. This quickly transitions into a swift execute.

Round 6: Gen.G push up B-Main. TH immediately fights for A-Main in response and get a kill. They now win the round. (First round win = First time mid round aggro)

Round 7: Gen.G just bomb it up B and quickly exec.

Round 8: TH once again doesn't midround clear B-Main fast enough, can't hold onto A as they don't have the rotates and therefore lose the site and the round

Round 10: Gen.G quickly take Ramp control, but it's a fake. TH completely take the bait, instead of possible taking control B-Main, and yet again lose the site and the round.

Round 11: First round where aggro isn't super evident. However, TH DID take early B-Main control, and therefore were able to stack A. Again, when they take space aggressively they win the round.

Round 12: Gen.G run it up B-Main, but Munchkin is unable to find anything B and they can't break past the site hold.

Round 13: First round where I think there isn't much aggro at all. Gen.G did somewhat control A-Main, but not really.

Round 14: Gen.G has no info or control of any of the map, and they lose the opening kill. They fail to get the trade and falls it to a 2v3. However, Gen.G are able to clutch it out.

Round 15: Both teams fight for A main control. In response, Pati quickly takes B-Main for free. However, TH never makes any pressure elsewhere and therefore Gen.G stacks A. They win the round.

Round 16: TH fight for Mid, then B-Main. Gen.G lets them and denies the space, knowing that they cannot allow them control.

Basically, from this game, we saw:

• two(Maybe three if you count munchkin trying something A) fakes

• nine times where Gen.G pushed somewhere quickly from the start of the barrier without masking it

• four times a team was punished for not reclearing fast enough or didn't take space

• Three times a team DID do a midround reclear or fast space taking which led to a win.

This is clearly very aggressive.

Let's compare it to Map Two of FNC vs EG Tokyo Finals.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yui8ZT-LM0c

Round 1: EG quietly take mid, However, FNC have a trap prepared. It kinda fails, and they trade 2 for 2.

Round 3: Both teams are fighting for B-Main. HOWEVER, note that both sides are masking it. They both are trying to deny information. EG quickly leave and tries to fight mid, but FNC has the read. Again, notice how FNC are hiding their footsteps.

Round 4: FNC are once again giving up no information and setting up a mid trap. For some reason, it isn't sprung. (Not sure why) After FNC fall down a player, they DO NOT attempt a midround reclear or anything similar. Instead, they play to the sites. HOWEVER, EG gave up the info they were pushing A too early, and FNC have the players in time and manage to defend the site.

Round 5: First round something aggressive happens right off the barrier. (Round 4 has sky dog first and they didn't take mid, they let dog first clear mid). However, FNC once again have a trap(without giving it away until it was sprung). EG never pretend they are going somewhere else, so FNC stays on A.

Round 7: EG take mid somewhat fast. FNC do not do any reclears, they let EG have the space and play toward the sites. However, this fails, as demon1 gets a kill and EG now has the man advantage. FNC gambles A, guesses wrong, and lose the round.

Round 8: EG finds the op with their util, and kill him. After Boaster gets killed as well, FNC yet again do not try for a reclear. They play to the sites and lose the round.

Round 9: EG goes aggro again, taking mid quickly. FNC DOES maintain B-Main control this time, but the dog mid was a little too late and EG get to go A through vents.

Round 10: wow, EG goes aggro yet again! They attempt a trap play B, but no one gets caught. FNC YET AGAIN do not do any midround takes. They let EG walk up mid for free, and cannot hold the site.

Round 11: This time, FNC takes the offensive. They push B-Main early, find no one, but can't rotate in time. They win the round though, from their fast retake thanks to info.

Round 12: FNC does the same thing, but EG are waiting. The round falls apart for EG though.

(stopping here, this is taking too long, it's been like an hour =/)

So, now, we have:

• 0 fakes

• Three times EG went aggro without masking it

• Basically 0 reclears

• Two times where being aggro on defense led to a win.

These numbers are nowhere close to 2024. Is saying Info and Aggression the most important thing in that year an opinion? Sure. But there is evidence backing it up.(read my comments per round) This evidence also proves 2024 is much more aggressive.

and this trend continues for a long time afterwards, regardless of meta change

This part is what's wrong. The Meta Change IS what made FNC not good this year. If FNC played the same way they did in 2023 in 2024, they would've been crushed. Why do you think FNC did so bad this year? Sure, you can argue Champs, but 2024 does not apply.

I don't have the time to link evidence or type a long reply right now, I'll do that in the afternoon.(on my phone rn)

The "most direct evidence" you are claiming is that PRX beat FNC about a year before, when they had completely different teams. That is not a good example at all.

PRX being good against other EMEA teams is also completely pointless, teams have different playstyles and unless EVERYOBE from EMEA had the same playstyle this means nothing.

The FNC >> PRX part I thought was obvious. PRX are an extremely agressive team, but FNC's defaults are able to counter very well and also ensure they have the info to make a quick retake/attempted site hold.

Alright, I’ll pick it apart. (this took so long)

Also, I’m not going to argue about dumb stuff like “mickey mouse tourney” or whatever.

If you want evidence for something, ask. I’m too lazy to link every single one of my claims.

(Oh, and A8-10 and B4 makes no sense to me, what are you arguing? And A6 made me laugh so hard)

First:

2024 Valorant is very different from 2023 Valorant. 2024 requires a much more aggressive playstyle, you need to do mid round reclears, more fakes, etc… to be able to do well. 2023 Valorant was more about the info game. Being able to check where they are, deny/gain information, etc… was the most important things. FNC were really good at 2023 Valorant. They mostly suck at 2024 Valorant. It’s a big reason why they started to do much worse in 2024 vs 2023. (Though part of it is also the anti-strat). Every Top 2024 Team was very good at knowing when to take space/push out. Every Top 2023 Team(outside of maybe PRX) was good at the info game.

This directly leads to the problem of that 2024 performance is not a good indicator of what might have happened in 2023, which makes A14-18 and B5 mostly irrelevant. (Part of this is an opinon, but I think it makes sense.)

The other one major point is that LOUD’s playstyle hardcounters FNC. FNC like to play slow, have one person at every contestion point, and then decide what to do based on what the opponents give up. (E.g, being able to rotate from hearing where PRX pushed out, or using Utility to find them doubled up somewhere, or where the op is) But, LOUD like to do solo/double pushes, which means LOUD is often taking 2v1s or 1v1s before FNC can get set up, which in turn make the round spiral out of control. This is why DRX 13-1’d FNC, if you watch the game, DRX just kept doing these solo/double pushes, getting a man advantage, then each player of FNC feels pressured to make a play to even it, but fails, making the round worse and worse. Combined with Val’s snowball problem, it just became a complete disaster.

FNC also hard counters PRX, but this time you can probably guess why. I don’t think I need to explain it, and PRX got absolutely stomped on by FNC at Tokyo, I do not believe for a second PRX could’ve won with something unless he somehow becomes god and gets three every round.

Essentially, at champs, I think:

FNC <= EG
FNC << LOUD
FNC >> PRX

They simply got unlucky and played LOUD twice. (C4)

One other thing that bothers me:

I understand people will call Lock//In a fake tourney. But even so, FNC won Lock//In AND Tokyo. FNC winning Lock//In isn’t a fluke. They had the ability to win twice.

Even if you want to argue about LOUD choking and EG not being fully preped, FNC then would’ve got 2nd both events. (FNC >> PRX like I said earlier). It’s not a fluke. They were at worst the second best team in the world for two events in a row.

Now, to address each point:

C1-3; agree.
C4, explained above

B1 - not sure what this is supposed to mean
B2 - would still be second in the world at worst, and being able to comeback is also partly from them, not just LOUD choking. (Also, maybe this is wrong, but I feel like the two new guys were actually the most impactful during the choke? I forgot tho)
B3 - don’t care
B4 - ?
B5 - explained
B6 - maybe, I would lean 55/45 or 60/40 EG

A's are all facts, but some of them I don’t understand and/or don’t think support the argument all that well.

i mean if he says he's quitting vlr and actually does so, we can celebrate

ehh...

no one on PRX has had experience being a true IGL(AFAIK). f0rsaken was the closest we had to one, and he was okay at best. Him and d4v41 are probably better as secondary callers.

f0rsaken is already a dedicated support player no? He's arguably the most flexible player ITW.

Phoenix is decent, Through walls might be a bit much tho

Gekko is very fair

Harbor, slow is a bit op now imo, slowing enemies more than allies is fair but i disagree with no slow at all for allies

Can you still walk out of ult with the stun windup decrease?

Sage is crazy. I'd be fine with it but imo they never do something like this.

Cypher is fine, but i really don't want the cost increase as a cypher player, you can no longer go ghost, trip, cage on pistol :(

0.4 800 dpi

Plat 3

This is actually the most reasonable non-PRX fan take I've seen. Thank you for actually thinking. <3

This is basically what I've been trying to say, but I personally think something should be the focus point. Let Jinggg play raze on raze maps, but we can't be forcing raze on every single map and it just restricts our map pool too much. It's why I still think Jinggg should learn more characters.(KJ and/or Cypher would be awesome, but I'd be okay with some others).

IMO, for us to do well, we need something to play well, have Jinggg be able to match something's pace and provide a secondary duelist option, and then have the proper support.

In terms of playstyle, PRX need more info agents imo. They are forced to push early because it's basically a 50/50 of if you guess right. In the midgame, they don't know where they are, and they barely push as they have so many things to worry about. It's why Sage on Sunset worked so well, they could just wall stuff off, push somewhere else, and have aggro walls as well. Being able to push into where the enemy is confidently is where PRX thrive, they just can't get it to work consistently.

An example comp I would like to run(hypothetically, not sure how well it'd work) is:

Ascent:
something - Jett
d4v41 - KAYO
f0rsaken - Skye
Jinggg - KJ/Cypher
Mindfreak - Omen

You get a lot more info with KJ and the double init, but you also still can push out with double flashes. I think it's more balanced while still being able to run #WGAMING.

im plat 3 im an improvement :)

congrats <3

when you guys joining franchising? can i be an analyst?

There isn't an aim diff in Pro Play, or it's at most not that big. You can't consistently win your gunfights.

Besides, lack of util means you're forced to push out on Defense, where they can just all hold you

Pro play is not ranked. Teams know how to counter these util-less comps.

Ask us how PRX is doing as arguably the most aggressive team ITW.

:cry:

I mean, if you have three aspas's on your team, maybe, but otherwise the value you get from util beats firepower

I don't get why people dislike fr0st. Outside of the humiliation kink(lol), everything I've seen from him is overall decent. Taking credit when they mess up. Recognizing he might be introducing too much new stuff. Willing to take a risk with primmie. Etc..

Bro we spend fucking two hours trying to debug only to realize we accidently deleted some shit, and then we somehow forgot to place semicolons in three different areas...

That's fair. I know this sounds fake as fuck, but something about RA just clicks for me and I feel like they will do great. Idk why =/

G2 I think either they fix their mistakes or stay doomed to become DRX V2.0

"no chance" is honestly crazy. If they can get more support for primmie then they have a decent chance. especially with the rumors about ban leaving.

Trying to be out of the box(kinda) but still make sense (In seeding order)

TLN(I have high hopes for talon assuming they can get better support and truly cook)
PRX/Gen.G(depends on PRX form)

EDG(still good, but not as dominant)
FPX/RA(high hopes for RA(assuming they win ascension), but I can definitely see them failing a bit and FPX taking the slot)

FNC(duh)
VIT(VIT is really the only team I see even having a chance of qualing past FNC and TH, outside of maybe NAVI?)

G2(Will work on structure + backup plans)
KRU(saddhak will carry)

Placements:
G2, PRX/Gen.G, EDG, TLN, FNC, KRU, FPX/RA, VIT

I've kept 0.4 800 DPI for like two years now, and changing it a bit to say 0.45 or 0.35 feels REALLY weird to me. I think I can get used to it, as I occasionally use double my sens for practice, but it's really weird using something else.

Note I have a small area for my mouse, and I have a more flicky aim style tho

Give Wingman 26 Nuclear Devices

Ill do anything

oh no not this again

These "lists" are basically taking every reasonably cool play, then picking random ones with bias toward popular teams and/or winner

I've seen this counterargument, but the counterargument to this is basically the same thing. Teams can change. Would they have done more risky moves to try and stay in franchising?

I do understand the idea though.

???

I said EDG not EG

EDG are 3-4.

They only did well in Champs. They kinda bombed the other two events. A team like TH was consistent throughout the year and both SEN and Gen.G won a masters while doing well in one other tournament.

Some of us try to have legitimate conversations

this was already said twice lol

It's more than 1k.

They prefer to watch on China's streaming sites, not YT/Twitch

why?

0 trophy in 2024

please reread

As always, it depends on personal preference.

If you don't mind some spoilers, I'd try watching gameplay and see if you like it

What genre?

True. But new years always comes with meta changes. 2024 just so happened to be a much more aggressive year, and EDG are a team that benefits from that. If that meta changes, then EDG could quickly have to keep up with the change. It's why the top teams almost always change. (Think how FNC dominated, but then did much worse this year)

Not trying to take away from EDG's win(I heavily respect it, please don't take this the wrong way), but EDG felt like they were in a honeymoon period. They deserved to win from their current performance, but I don't think that performance will last. Especially as teams will try to heavy anti-strat as they are the winners.

Thank you for trying to have some good for the PRX Flairs

we need more people like this <3

I think it's that EDG will regress slightly

All of EDG were firing on all cylinders, I don't think that's going to stay up until 2025

it's passive aggressive (very good imo, I approve)

Essentially, it's implying that he doesn't love his own family members

No primary, no abilities, while stuneed

sounds like a nightmare

I mean, bind normally doesn't even have a senti anyways

huh?

so...

is the strat to let TH win until the GF?

G2, Gen.G, NRG

(NRG might be a bit biased, I really loved Optic)

=/

wait....

I'm an idiot LOL I didn't realize it could be used like that

oh flash pickup has been confirmed?

proof?

pretty good imo

but some stuff has yet to be explained, so It'd depend

Feels like a more aggro senti that can still possible replace Cypher/KJ if you don't mind nothing holding flank

Me personally, champs

it felt like the tourney to do it

the storylines, the map pool, the reyna, all of it felt like the perfect time for it all to come together

(storylines esp, Jinggg's last tourney before his military service and something's first LAN)

and they had the double ban too

I was absolutely heartbroken when we lost :(

edit: Copenhagen was bad, yeah, but champs just had more build up and whatnot

Frost literally told primmie to igl abyss vs TS bc they didn’t scrim it and he was the only one who had any experience on it, and frost was betting on ts not picking it.

Not their fault, they have to change stuff up to let primmie feel comfortable

betting they wouldn't pick abyss isn't a terrible idea either(first time they're in map pool)

Frost also constantly openly negatively criticizes the team while making no active moves to make positive changes.

proof?

He was the one who brought in primmie when they could've just stayed with their old roster

So..

We lost 2-0 to a team that hard counters our playstyle

Beat a team we should've 2-0

then lost to the eventual winners 2-1

can we just chalk it up to being unlucky and facing a bad group for us?

(Jinggg should still learn more agents tho)