CS vs Val debate

#1

oomieZ

the CS vs Val debate is so stupid

they are two different games despite being similar

CS fans will say CS is better and Val fans are gonna say Val is better, there is NO objectively correct answer, both Esports are thriving and both games are thriving.

the issue is that CS fans are so delusional and jealous of Val since the game has only been out a few years and is matching and exceeding CS player count and Esports viewership

Meanwhile Val players respect CS and literally do not care for a debate

they are both amazing games and esports

#2

Aayan

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ive been saying this for ages

although this might be a slight exaggeration

exceeding CS ... Esports viewership

I would agree it is matching it at least, yeah, but exceeding is a stretch. (For example I believe Champs Korea outperformed the Shanghai Major, but year round CS tends to avg higher, plus they have more matches so you have to factor that in)

#6

oomieZ

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Aayan [#2]

ive been saying this for ages

although this might be a slight exaggeration

exceeding CS ... Esports viewership

I would agree it is matching it at least, yeah, but exceeding is a stretch. (For example I believe Champs Korea outperformed the Shanghai Major, but year round CS tends to avg higher, plus they have more matches so you have to factor that in)

Champions had 9.1 million peak viewers, (1.4m excluding China)

This was more than Katowice and the Shanghai major so some events exceed the viewership

but yeah u might be right

#7

gamergirl

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oomieZ [#6]

Champions had 9.1 million peak viewers, (1.4m excluding China)

This was more than Katowice and the Shanghai major so some events exceed the viewership

but yeah u might be right

chinese viewership carries during masters and champs, but CS tier 2 and non major matches heavily outperform valorant unless its a clout org like sen or fnc

#8

oomieZ

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gamergirl [#7]

chinese viewership carries during masters and champs, but CS tier 2 and non major matches heavily outperform valorant unless its a clout org like sen or fnc

yeah im talking about top tier events

#30

aaaa420

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oomieZ [#6]

Champions had 9.1 million peak viewers, (1.4m excluding China)

This was more than Katowice and the Shanghai major so some events exceed the viewership

but yeah u might be right

China would not even have 10% of that interest if chinese teams wasnt performing lol,china has crazy interest for cs even tho the chinese scene isnt even good, if u put a chinese team In a Major final that shit is probably getting 10 million too

#123

p0tsuz

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oomieZ [#6]

Champions had 9.1 million peak viewers, (1.4m excluding China)

This was more than Katowice and the Shanghai major so some events exceed the viewership

but yeah u might be right

I mean , Champions being in a Asian Country , with a team from China on Grand Final , if they didnt outperform it would be weird asf ( Considering that Shangai major was terrible to watch for Europe and Brazil , no chinese team and neither a Brazilian team on Playoffs)
There is also things like how Valve and Riot treat their watchParty

#63

TensionRL

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Aayan [#2]

ive been saying this for ages

although this might be a slight exaggeration

exceeding CS ... Esports viewership

I would agree it is matching it at least, yeah, but exceeding is a stretch. (For example I believe Champs Korea outperformed the Shanghai Major, but year round CS tends to avg higher, plus they have more matches so you have to factor that in)

The difference is CS fans will glaze the esport and call Valorant too complicated when the most clipped and exciting things that ever get traction on X or any social media platform is just the players shit talking each other in game... They can say there is too much going in Val but not if the most interesting part of a series is the straight up the cams on the players

#3

tram2684

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^

#4

wagonVAL

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cool n all but canezera has a 337 ACS and 1.53 rating, he was probably made in some freak lab experiment right?

#5

LifeDiff

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Find CS more fun, but i like Val more from a competitive standpoint

#9

silent_ac

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Theres a big issue in both games, in Val the abilities/ult dump rounds can be so silly and boring to watch and vise-versa in CS2 the amount of fucking saving due to poor ct economy in that game is unreal. Pistols are SO much more important in CS2 as well, as losing your ct pistol just condemns you to bad eco unless you win 3 in a row, while in Valorant they are still super important but at least some maps you can have some leeway if you get more rounds on the worst half of the map while losing both pistols. I'd argue that CS2 has more stomps than Val too due to said economy troubles, it looks like a close half with a 7-5 or something cts lose pistol force and lose and the map is lost 13-6. I will say that a evenly matched cs2 game is more entertaining than a evenly matched Val game but on avg Val is personally more enjoyable.

#27

Inadequit

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silent_ac [#9]

Theres a big issue in both games, in Val the abilities/ult dump rounds can be so silly and boring to watch and vise-versa in CS2 the amount of fucking saving due to poor ct economy in that game is unreal. Pistols are SO much more important in CS2 as well, as losing your ct pistol just condemns you to bad eco unless you win 3 in a row, while in Valorant they are still super important but at least some maps you can have some leeway if you get more rounds on the worst half of the map while losing both pistols. I'd argue that CS2 has more stomps than Val too due to said economy troubles, it looks like a close half with a 7-5 or something cts lose pistol force and lose and the map is lost 13-6. I will say that a evenly matched cs2 game is more entertaining than a evenly matched Val game but on avg Val is personally more enjoyable.

I think the ability/util dumps are super interesting and impressive. It's a whole other layer of player skill separate from pure mechanics. I think rounds like that are what really differentiates the games. The ability to use util to it's max potential is what is what wins games at the top level nowadays (unless it's a huge aim diff) and i think that is very cool to see combo'd with tac fps shooting mechanics.

#10

composthe

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both Esports are thriving

valorant tier 2 would like to have a word with you

#13

BEHEMOTH

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composthe [#10]

both Esports are thriving

valorant tier 2 would like to have a word with you

Riot is literally killing its tier 2. Acend, the very first Champs winner literally quit Val/LoL operations coz they couldn't establish clear connection with Riot.

Riot employees only go online when either

A new patch with latest scam skins are out
To congratulate mid ass 'GC Talent' like midlorescent

lmaoo

#15

Cryptic88

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BEHEMOTH [#13]

Riot is literally killing its tier 2. Acend, the very first Champs winner literally quit Val/LoL operations coz they couldn't establish clear connection with Riot.

Riot employees only go online when either

A new patch with latest scam skins are out

To congratulate mid ass 'GC Talent' like midlorescent

lmaoo

if riot employees truly cared, they shouldnt have released flex items and instead work on agent skins that definitely would have received more praise than criticism if it was correctly executed. GC is literally failing too cuz SRG is getting dogged on in challengers. I have said this before and i will say this again, GC is fucking dogshit. i do not mind a scene for female pros but not for mentally ill people who want to change genders. downvote me if you want

#37

BEHEMOTH

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Cryptic88 [#15]

if riot employees truly cared, they shouldnt have released flex items and instead work on agent skins that definitely would have received more praise than criticism if it was correctly executed. GC is literally failing too cuz SRG is getting dogged on in challengers. I have said this before and i will say this again, GC is fucking dogshit. i do not mind a scene for female pros but not for mentally ill people who want to change genders. downvote me if you want

VLR virgins downvoting hard truth as usual lmao

#16

composthe

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BEHEMOTH [#13]

Riot is literally killing its tier 2. Acend, the very first Champs winner literally quit Val/LoL operations coz they couldn't establish clear connection with Riot.

Riot employees only go online when either

A new patch with latest scam skins are out

To congratulate mid ass 'GC Talent' like midlorescent

lmaoo

and we still dont have a fucking replay system 5 years after game launched

all these idiots are buying every single bundle and then wonder why riot doesnt car about their game. if they make profit why should they

#11

BEHEMOTH

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CS is literally better, its a Valve product compared to the shitcan Riot and TenCent have produced to scam 16year olds, e-daters, pronoun/flag-in-username merchants on twitter etc via shitty skins and nowadays, even pixelated junk lmaooo

#14

oomieZ

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BEHEMOTH [#11]

CS is literally better, its a Valve product compared to the shitcan Riot and TenCent have produced to scam 16year olds, e-daters, pronoun/flag-in-username merchants on twitter etc via shitty skins and nowadays, even pixelated junk lmaooo

akshoully☝️🤓

#18

BEHEMOTH

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oomieZ [#14]

akshoully☝️🤓

Also Valorant literally comes with a Chinese Spyware lmao

Shit's perma active on your workstation even when the skin scamming game is not on, that's crazy lmao

#19

oomieZ

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BEHEMOTH [#18]

Also Valorant literally comes with a Chinese Spyware lmao

Shit's perma active on your workstation even when the skin scamming game is not on, that's crazy lmao

prove it

#23

BEHEMOTH

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oomieZ [#19]

prove it

(Had to dig this one out for you so be grateful pal)[https://boulderbugle.com/vanguard-is-a-chinese-spyware-GTDLpvKH]

#26

oomieZ

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BEHEMOTH [#23]

(Had to dig this one out for you so be grateful pal)[https://boulderbugle.com/vanguard-is-a-chinese-spyware-GTDLpvKH]

i am NOT clicking that virus link

also that is the least reliable source of all time

#36

BEHEMOTH

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oomieZ [#26]

i am NOT clicking that virus link

also that is the least reliable source of all time

Pussying out lmfao

edit: Also I know you clicked it lmao

#38

oomieZ

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BEHEMOTH [#36]

Pussying out lmfao

edit: Also I know you clicked it lmao

i didnt click it

#17

oomieZ

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BEHEMOTH [#11]

CS is literally better, its a Valve product compared to the shitcan Riot and TenCent have produced to scam 16year olds, e-daters, pronoun/flag-in-username merchants on twitter etc via shitty skins and nowadays, even pixelated junk lmaooo

at least u dont have to pay thousands of dollars for a decent knife and have an angry toxic Russian shouting at you every game

#21

BEHEMOTH

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oomieZ [#17]

at least u dont have to pay thousands of dollars for a decent knife and have an angry toxic Russian shouting at you every game

Angry toxic Russian > Some fragile 16year old bum on discord who'll mute/report you for the least offensive thing or the emotional clowns who wanna quit after every 3 rounds coz they wanna pretend that they are too mature to play the game lmao

#22

oomieZ

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BEHEMOTH [#21]

Angry toxic Russian > Some fragile 16year old bum on discord who'll mute/report you for the least offensive thing or the emotional clowns who wanna quit after every 3 rounds coz they wanna pretend that they are too mature to play the game lmao

i think thats a you problem

#24

Burgru

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oomieZ [#17]

at least u dont have to pay thousands of dollars for a decent knife and have an angry toxic Russian shouting at you every game

don't know if you ever played ranked but theres plenty of toxic russians in valorant too

#25

XanXanUk

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Burgru [#24]

don't know if you ever played ranked but theres plenty of toxic russians in valorant too

What server? Not on Warsaw, that's for sure, thank god.

#41

Burgru

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XanXanUk [#25]

What server? Not on Warsaw, that's for sure, thank god.

on NA theres a huge problem with russians playing on high ping in immoral elo mostly east coast servers. I find them the most if I play in the morning/early noon EST time.

#12

Cryptic88

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as someone who played both games and have no bias, cs is better imo cuz of the mechanics. however, if you are looking for a more strategic game that has cs-like mechanics, valorant is the game.

#20

lalalalalala

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both are shit ngl

#28

aaaa420

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Valorant has not had a single year where it has exceed or even matched cs wiewership lol,cs esports is big In china too but only valorant fans bring up "china numbers"

#29

oomieZ

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aaaa420 [#28]

Valorant has not had a single year where it has exceed or even matched cs wiewership lol,cs esports is big In china too but only valorant fans bring up "china numbers"

well Champions 2024 without Chinese viewership still had more viewers than the cs Shanghai major

#31

aaaa420

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oomieZ [#29]

well Champions 2024 without Chinese viewership still had more viewers than the cs Shanghai major

The whole Shanghai Major was bad timezones for eu wiewers

#32

oomieZ

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aaaa420 [#31]

The whole Shanghai Major was bad timezones for eu wiewers

Seoul and Shanghai are 1 hour apart

#33

aaaa420

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oomieZ [#32]

Seoul and Shanghai are 1 hour apart

yea but majority of valorants viewership doesnt come from eu,even katowice peaks at 1.3m with a boring stomp final that could have gotten the same peak as champs 2024 with probably a top 3 final ever

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Talker

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aaaa420 [#28]

Valorant has not had a single year where it has exceed or even matched cs wiewership lol,cs esports is big In china too but only valorant fans bring up "china numbers"

2024 Madrid far surpassed Katowice and Cologne that year

#62

aaaa420

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Talker [#60]

2024 Madrid far surpassed Katowice and Cologne that year

2024 sen* now look at overall wiewership,keep in mind valorant only has 3 actual real events a year to make it more hype cause theres so little actual international competition so a ultimate clout team like sen making it there and going to the finals is easy viewership

#64

Talker

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aaaa420 [#62]

2024 sen* now look at overall wiewership,keep in mind valorant only has 3 actual real events a year to make it more hype cause theres so little actual international competition so a ultimate clout team like sen making it there and going to the finals is easy viewership

Point still stands though

#65

aaaa420

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Talker [#64]

Point still stands though

what point

#66

Talker

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aaaa420 [#65]

what point

exceeded viewership of a lot of cs events, so did Champs Seoul

#67

aaaa420

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Talker [#66]

exceeded viewership of a lot of cs events, so did Champs Seoul

champs didnt exceed copenhagen,if shanghai major had better time for eu it would have been higher viewership too

#69

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aaaa420 [#67]

champs didnt exceed copenhagen,if shanghai major had better time for eu it would have been higher viewership too

ofc if champs was in EU then the viewership would have been better as well

#73

aaaa420

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Talker [#69]

ofc if champs was in EU then the viewership would have been better as well

but champs was in NA for 2023 and it wasnt

#74

Talker

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aaaa420 [#73]

but champs was in NA for 2023 and it wasnt

Sorry? I am talking about Champs being in EU, I believe you misunderstood what I said

continue thread →

#72

oomieZ

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aaaa420 [#67]

champs didnt exceed copenhagen,if shanghai major had better time for eu it would have been higher viewership too

"Champions Seoul was the most successful VCT event to date, reaching 9.13M peak viewers and 44.38M unique viewers during Grand Finals, over 5x the viewership of Champions LA the year before. Chinese fans made up a good portion of the viewership, and the event may hold the high-water mark for some time."

#75

aaaa420

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oomieZ [#72]

"Champions Seoul was the most successful VCT event to date, reaching 9.13M peak viewers and 44.38M unique viewers during Grand Finals, over 5x the viewership of Champions LA the year before. Chinese fans made up a good portion of the viewership, and the event may hold the high-water mark for some time."

we only know this because riot got the chinese numbers we dont even know the chinese viewership for the shanghai major,if a chinese team was in a major final it would easily reach those same numbers in china cs is really popular there even tho they dont even have any good teams

#77

oomieZ

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aaaa420 [#75]

we only know this because riot got the chinese numbers we dont even know the chinese viewership for the shanghai major,if a chinese team was in a major final it would easily reach those same numbers in china cs is really popular there even tho they dont even have any good teams

Valorant is far bigger in China than CS is, and the most popular Chinese team was playing in the grand final.

The Chinese viewership for the CS Major wouldn't even be half of the Champions viewers.

I made the post to explain why comparing the games is stupid but people are still arguing lol

continue thread →

#68

Er3ngenes1s

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Talker [#60]

2024 Madrid far surpassed Katowice and Cologne that year

PGL major at copenhagen surpassed all vct events

#70

Talker

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Er3ngenes1s [#68]

PGL major at copenhagen surpassed all vct events

Indeed, its good to see both thriving

#71

oomieZ

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Er3ngenes1s [#68]

PGL major at copenhagen surpassed all vct events

Champions 2024 peaked 9.1 Million Viewers

#81

Er3ngenes1s

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oomieZ [#71]

Champions 2024 peaked 9.1 Million Viewers

yeah i said about the copenhagen viewership without the chinese viewership in esports charts

#82

oomieZ

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Er3ngenes1s [#81]

yeah i said about the copenhagen viewership without the chinese viewership in esports charts

well VCT Champs had more viewers than the PGL Copenhagen major sooo

#85

Er3ngenes1s

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oomieZ [#82]

well VCT Champs had more viewers than the PGL Copenhagen major sooo

without the chinese viewership hell no blud. we dont know whats the chinese viewership about the copenhagen major
https://escharts.com/tournaments/csgo/pgl-major-copenhagen-2024
https://escharts.com/tournaments/valorant/valorant-champions-2024-valorant

#87

oomieZ

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Er3ngenes1s [#85]

without the chinese viewership hell no blud. we dont know whats the chinese viewership about the copenhagen major
https://escharts.com/tournaments/csgo/pgl-major-copenhagen-2024
https://escharts.com/tournaments/valorant/valorant-champions-2024-valorant

so Chinese people just dont exist or something???

u cant just count out Chinese viewership lmao, "without the chinese viewership" yeah i dont care

the reason Chinese viewership isnt on Esports charts is because they watch it on a different platform

also no shot Chinese viewership for the copenhagen major is gonna be anywhere near the viewership for champs

#88

Er3ngenes1s

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oomieZ [#87]

so Chinese people just dont exist or something???

u cant just count out Chinese viewership lmao, "without the chinese viewership" yeah i dont care

the reason Chinese viewership isnt on Esports charts is because they watch it on a different platform

also no shot Chinese viewership for the copenhagen major is gonna be anywhere near the viewership for champs

are u fucking slow? ofc the chinese numbers should also be included for the pgl major if ur including it in champs too

#90

oomieZ

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Er3ngenes1s [#88]

are u fucking slow? ofc the chinese numbers should also be included for the pgl major if ur including it in champs too

are you fucking slow???

re read

also idk why ur so mad lol keep playing ur dead game

continue thread →

#34

Nef0r0

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I feel like we can only compare the esports scene, and in my opinion, CS clears just because it is an older scene, simple as. 5+ tournament organizers, open quals to let new teams into the scene, iconic venues like Lanxess or Spodek or Royal Arena

#35

51etatdequebec

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is CS even a game in NA/APAC? honestly its irrelevant no one i know plays that shit

#40

BEHEMOTH

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51etatdequebec [#35]

is CS even a game in NA/APAC? honestly its irrelevant no one i know plays that shit

Skill issue, can't hold a mouse while eating a burger

Also Mongolz literally were in Kato Semifinal last week, so APAC is atleast still contending

#39

Prasinos

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With all that said:
CS>>>>> Gooners game Valorant.

#42

KClaw

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Prasinos [#39]

With all that said:
CS>>>>> Gooners game Valorant.

Why are u here then??? 😭😭😭

#43

Prasinos

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KClaw [#42]

Why are u here then??? 😭😭😭

🙏

#44

Scoutzknivez

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CS is better gameplay. Val is better at emptying your wallet

#45

oomieZ

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Scoutzknivez [#44]

CS is better gameplay. Val is better at emptying your wallet

thats your opinion

#46

Prasinos

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Scoutzknivez [#44]

CS is better gameplay. Val is better at emptying your wallet

cs skin marked already broke more teenagers lifes than the American dream.

#48

OCARINA

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Scoutzknivez [#44]

CS is better gameplay. Val is better at emptying your wallet

Valo skins still worthy

#47

OCARINA

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Cs majors aren't funny anymore same teams compete every tournament VIT G2 NAVI TL FAZE SPIRIT and there's no wow roster changes or massive tactics and meta changes
I played cs since cs 1.6 but i was so dry toward it till i discovred valorant

Ps: i might be wrong about the cs information but trust whenever i go to ESL or blast twitch lives i see this teams compete every time xD

#54

Nef0r0

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OCARINA [#47]

Cs majors aren't funny anymore same teams compete every tournament VIT G2 NAVI TL FAZE SPIRIT and there's no wow roster changes or massive tactics and meta changes
I played cs since cs 1.6 but i was so dry toward it till i discovred valorant

Ps: i might be wrong about the cs information but trust whenever i go to ESL or blast twitch lives i see this teams compete every time xD

So ropz to vitality isn't a wow move? Or elige to faze? Or heroic changing all 5 players after a top 8 at the major? New teams will appear as the season progresses, top teams will dodge some events and open up the spots for those below

#49

Langacune

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Cs is boring, same maps for 10 years, same teams, same utility. Only fun thing is watching donk, zywoo, m0nesy dominate. Playing wise I hate having to learn lineups, I don't like that even if you miss your shot you can reliably spray and get the kill anyway. I also dont like having to play with m4, just give me ak. There are also just too many smokes and flashes everywhere cause everyone can buy them. Lastly the movement feels like im ice skating also you cant change direction when you jump which makes it feel clunky. Also the awp is op af you dont even have to scope with that shit. Also pistols are almost full accuracy while running and you can crab walk and hit headshots with aks, I see that a lot in pro play and people argue valorant has more running and shooting. It also is a one region sport which is boring. Skins are also boring no unique audio and animations. The ot system is weird I constantly see people saving in ot which is boring. I wont even talk about cheaters its just ridicilous. The gambling shit is disgusting, cant even watch a SINGLE cs video without 2 minutes of skinsmonkey scam ad. People like to glaze cs because its a classic/nostalgic game with dark corridors. The game is just a skeleton of a great idea that needs meat and skin but all the skin valve adds is dragon lore and fire serpent.

#50

Aayan

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Langacune [#49]

Cs is boring, same maps for 10 years, same teams, same utility. Only fun thing is watching donk, zywoo, m0nesy dominate. Playing wise I hate having to learn lineups, I don't like that even if you miss your shot you can reliably spray and get the kill anyway. I also dont like having to play with m4, just give me ak. There are also just too many smokes and flashes everywhere cause everyone can buy them. Lastly the movement feels like im ice skating also you cant change direction when you jump which makes it feel clunky. Also the awp is op af you dont even have to scope with that shit. Also pistols are almost full accuracy while running and you can crab walk and hit headshots with aks, I see that a lot in pro play and people argue valorant has more running and shooting. It also is a one region sport which is boring. Skins are also boring no unique audio and animations. The ot system is weird I constantly see people saving in ot which is boring. I wont even talk about cheaters its just ridicilous. The gambling shit is disgusting, cant even watch a SINGLE cs video without 2 minutes of skinsmonkey scam ad. People like to glaze cs because its a classic/nostalgic game with dark corridors. The game is just a skeleton of a great idea that needs meat and skin but all the skin valve adds is dragon lore and fire serpent.

I also dont like having to play with m4

damn you have to play with him??
I feel bad yeah no wonder you don't like the game

#51

Langacune

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Aayan [#50]

I also dont like having to play with m4

damn you have to play with him??
I feel bad yeah no wonder you don't like the game

Dust 2 appears to be set in the Middle East, similar to its predecessor Dust. An earlier version of the map lack many identifying features, with the only identifying features being what looks like sandstone textures for walls and sand for floor.

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In the revamped version, the map is set in Morocco, which is not in the geographic region of Middle East, but featured similar architectural styles.[1]

The map can be loosely divided into three interconnected lanes: Tunnels connecting T Spawn to bombsite B, mid connecting T Spawn to CT Spawn and catwalk, and Long connecting T Spawn to bombsite A. Pathways branch out from these lanes and form an interconnected map allowing for tactical player movements.

#52

Danny

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if you have a shit pc —> valo better

If you have a good pc —> cs2 better

If you like watching NA —> valo esports better

If you don’t care about regions —> cs2 esports better

#53

tungsten_cube_

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cs players are lowkey annoying no one who plays valorant cares about cs but it feels like every cs player makes hating valorant half their personality

imo valo is more fun to watch but cs is more fun to play

#59

aaaa420

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tungsten_cube_ [#53]

cs players are lowkey annoying no one who plays valorant cares about cs but it feels like every cs player makes hating valorant half their personality

imo valo is more fun to watch but cs is more fun to play

well that is the dynamic when valorant wants to be a competitor to cs,valorant fans were also talking about this game killing/surpassing cs years ago as a real topic but now u obviously u dont see it almost at all anymore since it still hasnt happened and probably isnt in the near future

#55

elendooo1

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Mostly edgy wannabe kids are talking about how cs is so much better for no reason. Ill be watching a val video and in the comments its a kid saying "cs is so much better stop playing val 🤓"

#57

PLRoox

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elendooo1 [#55]

Mostly edgy wannabe kids are talking about how cs is so much better for no reason. Ill be watching a val video and in the comments its a kid saying "cs is so much better stop playing val 🤓"

never saw any comment like this but i can imagine that

#56

PLRoox

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Kinda agree
The opinions saying cs 2> valo or valo > cs2 is so provocating imo
Really stupid

#58

Alpac4

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val > cs2 in optimized as of now
val = cs2 in esport
csgo > cs2 in everything

#61

zetydy

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val fans care a little bit. There is definitely a bit of insecurity from all the shit they get from CS fans claiming they have the objectively better game. People shouldn't give a fuck, but they do unfortunately.

#86

Hakujitsu

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I'm val fans say Minecraft is better

#92

Talker

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I just gave you factual information as to what the most watched VCT events are, sorry but there is certainly a trend and more so when NA events are clearly extremely bad for APAC fans, I would appreciate it if you would bring some sort of concrete argument rather than just saying things for the sake of saying it

(How did this reply get here when I was replying to someone?)

#129

revzi

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only time I watch CS is when MOUZ play or when MOUZ don't play I leave it on my second monitor and watch here and there. same with Val only watch when MOUZ or G2 play