Type 1 if you fucking hate it too
6
I fucking hate franchising
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Uestimated [#5]So do we start the biggest 1 chain in vlr.gg history?
We might need a new thread for that since I ruined the chain before it even started
Mortadelo [#8]I don't, Franchising is great. Y'all just attribute every single problem the format has with Franchising, when in reality it has nothing to do with it. If your problem is Tier 2 for example, there is a thousand ways you can fix it that have nothing to do with Franchising
Yeah the whole system is just to give orgs stability and more reason to invest in the esport
EnterKey [#9]Yeah the whole system is just to give orgs stability and more reason to invest in the esport
What Franchising actually does is that we have long term rivalries and that instead of having to see your team play, idk V1 or Rise, you see them play 100T and C9. Every problem people usually cite when talking about it can be fixed in a franchising system
Mortadelo [#10]What Franchising actually does is that we have long term rivalries and that instead of having to see your team play, idk V1 or Rise, you see them play 100T and C9. Every problem people usually cite when talking about it can be fixed in a franchising system
''we have long term rivalries'' but then riot destroyed its biggest chance at a generational rivalry
Nef0r0 [#13]''we have long term rivalries'' but then riot destroyed its biggest chance at a generational rivalry
Destroyed everything pre franchising to start building again, this was the second year give it time
Nef0r0 [#13]''we have long term rivalries'' but then riot destroyed its biggest chance at a generational rivalry
by that logic
PRX - EDG is not a rivalry
TLN - TS is not a rivalry
SEN - 100T is not a rivalry
tserc [#15]by that logic
PRX - EDG is not a rivalry
TLN - TS is not a rivalry
SEN - 100T is not a rivalry
none of those were fighting for titles
Mortadelo [#10]What Franchising actually does is that we have long term rivalries and that instead of having to see your team play, idk V1 or Rise, you see them play 100T and C9. Every problem people usually cite when talking about it can be fixed in a franchising system
legit destroyed one of the greatest rivalries in val history with optic and loud.
bigboy [#22]legit destroyed one of the greatest rivalries in val history with optic and loud.
See, thank you, great way to prove my point. You’re mad at who got in, and you think that’s franchising’s fault when it has nothing to do with it. There could very much be a world where OPTC got in
xNolva [#24]Franchising sucks but it’s better financially which is a big factor for riot. Also better long term
that worked well enough for overwatch did it?
badvibrations [#20]Valorant competitive season is a joke. Imagine playing 10 series in a whole year lmao
it's always the brazilians who talk shit about franchising as if any brazilian team other than LOUD wouldnt have bombed at any open circuit tournament lmao
ka ho-horo tōʻoku kau hhhhh
Mortadelo [#23]See, thank you, great way to prove my point. You’re mad at who got in, and you think that’s franchising’s fault when it has nothing to do with it. There could very much be a world where OPTC got in
brain dead take. franchising tradeoffs competitiveness for marketability.
you think that's franchising's fault when it has nothing to do with it
? do you even understand what you're writing?
bigboy [#29]brain dead take. franchising tradeoffs competitiveness for marketability.
you think that's franchising's fault when it has nothing to do with it
? do you even understand what you're writing?
I'm very aware of what I'm writing. Care to develop 1 disandvenatge of franchising? And I'll try to explain my point
bigboy [#22]legit destroyed one of the greatest rivalries in val history with optic and loud.
The rivalry died because the players couldn't keep up
Mortadelo [#30]I'm very aware of what I'm writing. Care to develop 1 disandvenatge of franchising? And I'll try to explain my point
ascended teams always at a disadvantage
system which encourages losing games
careers which last 2-3 years max
shitty formats
lack of events
Nef0r0 [#32]ascended teams always at a disadvantage
system which encourages losing games
careers which last 2-3 years max
shitty formats
lack of events
1 Why are ascended teams at a disadvantage
2 I don't see how that's the case
3 Nothing to do with Franchising, how does franchising affect the length of a career. Also mf the game is 4 year old xD
4 Nothing to do with Franchising, you can have open events with shitty formats and franchise events with great formats
5 Nothing to do with Franchising, Riot can add as many tournaments as they like
Again, prime example of my point. You're literally attributing every single problem you can possibly think of about competitive Valorant and assuming it's franchisings fault. When you can have a franchising system that very well doesn't have any of those problems, and an open circuit that does
Mortadelo [#33]1 Why are ascended teams at a disadvantage
2 I don't see how that's the case
3 Nothing to do with Franchising, how does franchising affect the length of a career. Also mf the game is 4 year old xD
4 Nothing to do with Franchising, you can have open events with shitty formats and franchise events with great formats
5 Nothing to do with Franchising, Riot can add as many tournaments as they likeAgain, prime example of my point. You're literally attributing every single problem you can possibly think of about competitive Valorant and assuming it's franchisings fault. When you can have a franchising system that very well doesn't have any of those problems, and an open circuit that does
1.) a team ascends, has to fight tooth and nail to get to champs because then they drop into the ascension tournament. If they are eliminated due to being unlucky then they might have their players stolen because talented players don't want to waste one year in tier 2 instead of a year in tier 1, therefore making them weaker and forcing them to find weaker alternatives
2.) poor phrasing, it doesn't encourage you losing games, it doesn't punish you enough, e.g. mibr
3.) franchising does affect the length of the career cause the number of slots is limited, NA can only field 6-7 duelists MAX, anyone else is surplus, forcing anyone in the duelist slot to be in the hot seat and there is nowhere to fall back on
4.) I give this one to you
5.) it has to do with franchising because having more than 3 events + stages will force riot to increase their spending and they do not find it profitable
Mortadelo [#30]I'm very aware of what I'm writing. Care to develop 1 disandvenatge of franchising? And I'll try to explain my point
- Franchising allows mediocrity in "Tier 1" to fester due to the lack of relegation. This leads to dogshit lineups such as mibr, furia, dfm, etc existing in the supposed "tier 1" scene of val. Less competitive teams = less competition = less exciting games for the fans.
Without a sense of relegation or an urgency to fix your team before you get booted to t2, it allows stagnation.
-
Franchising leads to less new talent. with orgs being less willing to invest in t2 and t3, potential players are much less willing to go pro full time without the guarantee of a fixed salary/exposure from orgs. ofc there will still be new talent but much less. This lack of talent leads to the recycling of older, more experienced players leading to less spots for upcoming players.
-
precedent. look at how dead OWL's T2 scene is.
Nef0r0 [#35]1.) a team ascends, has to fight tooth and nail to get to champs because then they drop into the ascension tournament. If they are eliminated due to being unlucky then they might have their players stolen because talented players don't want to waste one year in tier 2 instead of a year in tier 1, therefore making them weaker and forcing them to find weaker alternatives
2.) poor phrasing, it doesn't encourage you losing games, it doesn't punish you enough, e.g. mibr
3.) franchising does affect the length of the career cause the number of slots is limited, NA can only field 6-7 duelists MAX, anyone else is surplus, forcing anyone in the duelist slot to be in the hot seat and there is nowhere to fall back on
4.) I give this one to you
5.) it has to do with franchising because having more than 3 events + stages will force riot to increase their spending and they do not find it profitable
1 I see, but that is quite literally what happens in Open circuits aswell, established teams get invited while upcoming teams have the disadvantage of having to of though the whole qualifier. Also again, you can have a franchising system that doesn't have that problem, before the changes tier 2 teams didn't have that pressure, they had 2 years guaranteed. So your problem is not intrinsically with franchising
2 Sure fair enough. But if MIBR doesn't improve next year or the one after they're gonna be kicked form franchising and that is punishment. Also not being punished for 1 singular bad season is part of why franchising is good and why we get stories like TH this year. But yes I agree
3 There is a place to fall back on, tier 2, the fact that tier 2 is not stable in Valorant has nothing to do with franchising. For example LOL, they have successful tier 2 and legendary 10 year careers of players. So no, length of career is not intrinsically a problem of franchising, maybe of the current format (I don't agree)
5 Gonna use the same argument, LOL has franchising and does not have a lack of events.
Let me approach this differently so you understand my point better. Imagine Riot hires you tomorrow, they tell you you cannot change franchising itself, but you can make any change you want to the format/schedule/tier2. Do you feel like you could find a way of fixing all of those issues without breaking franchising?
tserc [#15]by that logic
PRX - EDG is not a rivalry
TLN - TS is not a rivalry
SEN - 100T is not a rivalry
PRX has clobbered EDG 95% of their matchups until recently.
TLN-TS irrelevant because they never make it to global events
SEN - 100t same story as PRX-100t. also one of the most manufactured "rivalries" ever. they get "placed" in the same matchups/bracket(excluding seeded brackets) every time.
Real rivalries form at the top, good example is Optic and Loud, where they meet only a couple times a year at masters/champs events.
DaBozo [#28]it's always the brazilians who talk shit about franchising as if any brazilian team other than LOUD wouldnt have bombed at any open circuit tournament lmao
ka ho-horo tōʻoku kau hhhhh
not too sure why bronzil even has 3 slots in Americas
they can't even produce enough talent to make two solid teams
Anzaldinho [#25]that worked well enough for overwatch did it?
Well that is blizzard tbf. League's franchising has existed for quite a bit and its ok at best
Mortadelo [#37]1 I see, but that is quite literally what happens in Open circuits aswell, established teams get invited while upcoming teams have the disadvantage of having to of though the whole qualifier. Also again, you can have a franchising system that doesn't have that problem, before the changes tier 2 teams didn't have that pressure, they had 2 years guaranteed. So your problem is not intrinsically with franchising
2 Sure fair enough. But if MIBR doesn't improve next year or the one after they're gonna be kicked form franchising and that is punishment. Also not being punished for 1 singular bad season is part of why franchising is good and why we get stories like TH this year. But yes I agree
3 There is a place to fall back on, tier 2, the fact that tier 2 is not stable in Valorant has nothing to do with franchising. For example LOL, they have successful tier 2 and legendary 10 year careers of players. So no, length of career is not intrinsically a problem of franchising, maybe of the current format (I don't agree)
5 Gonna use the same argument, LOL has franchising and does not have a lack of events.
Let me approach this differently so you understand my point better. Imagine Riot hires you tomorrow, they tell you you cannot change franchising itself, but you can make any change you want to the format/schedule/tier2. Do you feel like you could find a way of fixing all of those issues without breaking franchising?
1.) I am still talking about franchising in the current set of rules though. The team's position in an open circuit depends on how good the team is. If an established org starts going to shit (e.g. Fnatic, NiP, astralis in cs) nothing will save them because there is no system preventing this. They can get back by getting good. The hierarchy built by strength is always better than the one built on money sportswise
2.) The fact that franchising houses and allows this mediocrity for 4 years now is concerning
3.) Tier 2 has lower salaries, and only 1 chance to improve for 1 year
5.) because lol is more profitable
if riot were to hire me, or even Jesus Christ, no one is solving that franchising problem. I will however post a counter question. why was everyone in europe so against the Super League despite all of the big teams being in debt, because it would ''kill the competition and turn football into a show'' but then everyone just said ''franchising? fair enough.'' Why? what was different about it?
dort [#39]not too sure why bronzil even has 3 slots in Americas
they can't even produce enough talent to make two solid teams
Sad, but I agree.
Nef0r0 [#41]1.) I am still talking about franchising in the current set of rules though. The team's position in an open circuit depends on how good the team is. If an established org starts going to shit (e.g. Fnatic, NiP, astralis in cs) nothing will save them because there is no system preventing this. They can get back by getting good. The hierarchy built by strength is always better than the one built on money sportswise
2.) The fact that franchising houses and allows this mediocrity for 4 years now is concerning
3.) Tier 2 has lower salaries, and only 1 chance to improve for 1 year
5.) because lol is more profitable
if riot were to hire me, or even Jesus Christ, no one is solving that franchising problem. I will however post a counter question. why was everyone in europe so against the Super League despite all of the big teams being in debt, because it would ''kill the competition and turn football into a show'' but then everyone just said ''franchising? fair enough.'' Why? what was different about it?
I actually love the Superliga tho lol. And now that you mention it the new format did have promotion and demotion very similarly to VCT. People hated it because they didn't bother to see the format had changed from the original one and had a bad impression
I don't know if you're not understanding my point or just don't want to. I agree with every single problem you mentioned, it's not about that. Imo you're simply blaming those problems on the wrong cause, franchising is just one more part of a system that is wrong, but the part is not necessarily wrong. Idk how else to explain it, a franchising system without all of those problems is definitely possible in my eyes. But let's just agree to disagree I suppose
Mortadelo [#43]I actually love the Superliga tho lol. And now that you mention it the new format did have promotion and demotion very similarly to VCT. People hated it because they didn't bother to see the format had changed from the original one and had a bad impression
I don't know if you're not understanding my point or just don't want to. I agree with every single problem you mentioned, it's not about that. Imo you're simply blaming those problems on the wrong cause, franchising is just one more part of a system that is wrong, but the part is not necessarily wrong. Idk how else to explain it, a franchising system without all of those problems is definitely possible in my eyes. But let's just agree to disagree I suppose
so what is your fix then? promotion/demotion makes it a league, not franchising.
It has it's issues 100% I agree but outside of taking gambling money which riot refuses to do I don't think there's another way to make it sustainable. I like how it's not a complete franchising system and more of a 'partner' system, this also has cons but I like how it means the orgs don't get too much power
Nef0r0 [#44]so what is your fix then? promotion/demotion makes it a league, not franchising.
It's never been franchising in the first place, teams don't really own the spots. Just a way of calling it I suppose. And let me read the original problems and try to solve them
ascended teams always at a disadvantage
They will always have more pressure but I think they should guarantee them 2 years like before and only have the second year teams do the Playoff -> Ascension Champs -> retain spot thing
system which encourages losing games
Have the contract revision be every 2/3 years instead of 4
careers which last 2-3 years max
Make tier 2 more stable to give the players a place to fall back on. I would probably heavily reduce the amount of VCL's in EMEA to 3 or 4, condense the viewers and the quality orgs. create rivalries between countries and make each other play against one another more than fucking once a year. And most importantly extend their season
shitty formats
I would make none shitty formats xD
lack of events
I would add more events xD
Mortadelo [#46]It's never been franchising in the first place, teams don't really own the spots. Just a way of calling it I suppose. And let me read the original problems and try to solve them
ascended teams always at a disadvantage
They will always have more pressure but I think they should guarantee them 2 years like before and only have the second year teams do the Playoff -> Ascension Champs -> retain spot thing
system which encourages losing games
Have the contract revision be every 2/3 years instead of 4
careers which last 2-3 years max
Make tier 2 more stable to give the players a place to fall back on. I would probably heavily reduce the amount of VCL's in EMEA to 3 or 4, condense the viewers and the quality orgs. create rivalries between countries and make each other play against one another more than fucking once a year. And most importantly extend their season
shitty formats
I would make none shitty formats xD
lack of events
I would add more events xD
Based, great solutions, getting new orgs in t2 might be tough but manageable
bigboy [#36]
- Franchising allows mediocrity in "Tier 1" to fester due to the lack of relegation. This leads to dogshit lineups such as mibr, furia, dfm, etc existing in the supposed "tier 1" scene of val. Less competitive teams = less competition = less exciting games for the fans.
Without a sense of relegation or an urgency to fix your team before you get booted to t2, it allows stagnation.
Franchising leads to less new talent. with orgs being less willing to invest in t2 and t3, potential players are much less willing to go pro full time without the guarantee of a fixed salary/exposure from orgs. ofc there will still be new talent but much less. This lack of talent leads to the recycling of older, more experienced players leading to less spots for upcoming players.
precedent. look at how dead OWL's T2 scene is.
- The 1 thing I do agree with. And it has its benefits, you have orgs that use that situation to improve like TH and orgs that don't like MIBR. But again, you can very much mitigate that without removing franchising by maybe having the contract revision every 2/3 years instead of 4 making orgs having to react faster, which benefits orgs like TH not MIBR. It wouldn't eliminate it but very much help, which is why as I said I do agree with this one
- Out of all 58 players that competed in EMEA last year 23 were rookies, I believe that is a solid rate of young blood (could have miscounted slightly did it fast kekw)
- OWL killing their tier 2 doesn't mean Valorant has. LOL has a function tier 2 while having franchises, which proves it is possible with the right format. Riot just isn't paying enough attention to it. But that is kinda my point it's really unfair to say they're not paying attention to it because of franchising
dort [#39]not too sure why bronzil even has 3 slots in Americas
they can't even produce enough talent to make two solid teams
https://www.vlr.gg/183786/nrg-esports-vs-mibr-champions-tour-2023-americas-league-w3
Nef0r0 [#47]Based, great solutions, getting new orgs in t2 might be tough but manageable
There's orgs interested in valorant, it's a big esport. But Riot needs to fix A LOT of things
I've heard Heroic NIP and Quadrant are joining Polaris next year for example
Mortadelo [#50]There's orgs interested in valorant, it's a big esport. But Riot needs to fix A LOT of things
I've heard Heroic NIP and Quadrant are joining Polaris next year for example
The main problem I see that they are in one region and only one can go fight for ascension no?
Nef0r0 [#51]The main problem I see that they are in one region and only one can go fight for ascension no?
Yes, but more orgs benefits them, more viewers etc. I think competition is good, if you can't beat those guys you can't beat everyone else
Mortadelo [#52]Yes, but more orgs benefits them, more viewers etc. I think competition is good, if you can't beat those guys you can't beat everyone else
True, respect for keeping up your claims and backing your ideas up
Nef0r0 [#53]True, respect for keeping up your claims and backing your ideas up
Same man you had a point and tried to explain it. I'm glad we came to closer positions
bigboy [#22]legit destroyed one of the greatest rivalries in val history with optic and loud.
How putting 2 rival in same league destroyed greatest rivalry ?
bigboy [#36]
- Franchising allows mediocrity in "Tier 1" to fester due to the lack of relegation. This leads to dogshit lineups such as mibr, furia, dfm, etc existing in the supposed "tier 1" scene of val. Less competitive teams = less competition = less exciting games for the fans.
Without a sense of relegation or an urgency to fix your team before you get booted to t2, it allows stagnation.
Franchising leads to less new talent. with orgs being less willing to invest in t2 and t3, potential players are much less willing to go pro full time without the guarantee of a fixed salary/exposure from orgs. ofc there will still be new talent but much less. This lack of talent leads to the recycling of older, more experienced players leading to less spots for upcoming players.
precedent. look at how dead OWL's T2 scene is.
- 1 Franchising allows long term thinking
- 2 Unproven point
- 3 Cherry picking, Lol didn't get less hype after franchising
Mortadelo [#48]
- The 1 thing I do agree with. And it has its benefits, you have orgs that use that situation to improve like TH and orgs that don't like MIBR. But again, you can very much mitigate that without removing franchising by maybe having the contract revision every 2/3 years instead of 4 making orgs having to react faster, which benefits orgs like TH not MIBR. It wouldn't eliminate it but very much help, which is why as I said I do agree with this one
- Out of all 58 players that competed in EMEA last year 23 were rookies, I believe that is a solid rate of young blood (could have miscounted slightly did it fast kekw)
- OWL killing their tier 2 doesn't mean Valorant has. LOL has a function tier 2 while having franchises, which proves it is possible with the right format. Riot just isn't paying enough attention to it. But that is kinda my point it's really unfair to say they're not paying attention to it because of franchising
- We saw a sudden influx of rookies due to most of T2 blowing up (thanks, franchising) leading to the influx of free agents from T2 teams, along with multiple new orgs (koi, giantx, karmine, ) getting franchised over previously established teams (acend, V1, guild, etc). This led to newly franchised teams mostly signing rookies/T2 players into tier 1 while the veteran players from the unfranchised orgs shuffled into established franchised orgs or retiring.
Let's see how many genuine rookies are being introduced to franchised teams 3 years from now (not including Asencion winners)
- You are right. LoL does have a strong t2 scene especially in emea. OWL is just one example gone bad. however, val's t2 format is utter dog compared to LoL's system. LoL's t2 system have their own mini international tournaments on LAN for cash prizes while 90% of val's t2 scene is domestic and online. lame. With orgs dropping out every year due to failure (Union, OXG, Acend), fanbases are hard to establish and rivalries are non existent, which leads to no hype and poor viewership, which only furthers the downward spiral of T2.
tserc [#7]I think Riot need to revise their original plans for franchising. Because Tier 2 is unsustainable af
the only difference is that all tiers would be unsustainable
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