thoughts on relegation + number of teams

#1

Should there be a relegation system in 'franchising'?
imo there should be, the bottom teams in every region are so ass its unbelievable, and having more than 1 ascension slot per year actually might make t2 a good investment for orgs. In my perfect world there would be 6 teams who stay in t1, and 2 teams who get relegated/promoted. Creating at total of 8 teams per region

That also brings me on to the number of teams. Next year we will have 12 teams per region, which is wayyyyyyyyy to much, we already have like no matches compared to CS, and the local demand isn't even there yet (the crowd is basically empty when 2 shitty relegation worthy teams play)
It will always be possible to expand the league if there's more money coming in. Also with 8 teams per region we probably wouldn't have to deal with this half split BS in between masters events

#2

doomvor

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Yes, absolutely

#3

fun_at_the_waterslide

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For example I think these are the teams that are actually on fraudwatch for being worse than tier 2 consistently

MIBR
FURIA
EG
C9

BBL
~~GM8~~
KOI
GIANTS

~~RRQ~~
DFM
GE
~~TLN~~

#4

ersagaswdgsadghagtdsg

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free mwzera
free potter and jawgemo
free oxy

#26

Selfim

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C9
BBL
GM8
RRQ
TLN
Other than these, yeah you're right

#30

fun_at_the_waterslide

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yeah, I was just trying to stretch it to 4 teams per region so it would fit with my point nicely.
But you still can't argue that a top 3 T2 team from their respective regions doesn't have an at least 50% of beating these guys

#44

sentinelmain377

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add GIANTS to that list rn

#29

Siigma777

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talon literally went 4-1 and made it to playoffs...

#39

number_1_Ego_fan

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RRQ have Monyet now, and TLN just went 4-1 and made it to playoffs tf are u yapping about

It should be:
GE
BLD
DFM
TS/ZETA

#40

number_1_Ego_fan

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I would love to see TS relegated so that they can finally get both yamyam and JessieVash out keke

#42

Zeah

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imagine being the next PH fps prodigy only to see some old washed dude stole your position due to nepotism

#43

number_1_Ego_fan

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TS in a nutshell:

#45

ihatewestjett

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Imagine dropping NDG but not the washed boomer

#46

number_1_Ego_fan

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blame yamyam #YAMYAMOUT

#47

7whanzussjwbsysbbejskaoao

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this is aging well so far

#55

nobody___100

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as far as franchising go, EG, C9, M8, Giants, and TLN being here is ridiculous
EG won champs
C9 had a strong showing in 2023 Americas regular season, even if they fell off after
M8 joined the league just this year
Giants made champs last year
Talon just came to champs this year

#59

fun_at_the_waterslide

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relegation in this imagination would be year by year, so EG and GIA would automatically be out

C9 they are just oxy and friends, their year amounted to nothing, not a single international qualification. Did you know they didn't even make franchising initially? The only reason they're there are because G2 got kicked out.

GM8 are an ascension team so they will be relegated if they play like shit anyway

TLN is the only valid point

#60

nobody___100

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its ridiculous to relegate after just a year in esports, teams rise and fall all the time. by your logic, sen will be in tier 2 rn, probably bankrupt, and out of the game; instead, we have an org that came back from being utterly ass to winning a masters

#63

fun_at_the_waterslide

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you say this but I don't see you complaining about the ascension changes? that's practically the exact same thing, except it's applied to teams that put in the hard work to fight through, whilst paycheck stealers stay rampant

#57

GambleNats

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horrid takes, c9 and eg are fine and competitive at times. bbl was making absolute upsets, gm8 is already gonna get relegated, koi was really good in stage 2, giants wasnt even that bad a gave top teams a run for their money. rrq almost qualified for champs, talon are literally in champs.

how tf are you gonna say rrq but not a team like bleed or zeta.

also relegation scares org investment and will 100% kill the val scene

#61

fun_at_the_waterslide

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riot need to not be heavy handed with it. If a team does good content, good bundle sales and good t2/gc investment those should be factors that should be considered. BBL shouldn't be making 'upsets' when they have the best tier 2 talent pool. KOI have achieved nothing, and they were better, but not even close. You are right about RRQ and TLN.

#62

dishwashertree

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braindead more than half the league

#64

fun_at_the_waterslide

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when was 12 'more than half' of 33?? USA education KEKW

#69

dishwashertree

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Mozambique education is when you guys haven't gotten to the hyperbole unit yet

#5

Mortadelo

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Next year we will have 12 teams per region, which is wayyyyyyyyy to much

I'm afraid to tell you it grows up to 14 teams per league

#7

Psion

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I don’t think 12 or even 14 is too much at all, I wouldn’t go above 16 though.

#9

Mortadelo

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I think 14 is good enough, but not too much, a lot of talent out there that deserves the chance

#15

Anguibok

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To me 16 is the perfect number, 2 group of 8, and a kickoff format so easier to do, plus, we are sure that no T2 region will take all of the ascention spot, since we will have 3 a year.

#17

Psion

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I think that only having 4 large regions is worse than say 8 smaller ones, so I don’t really care

#20

Anguibok

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I have doubt on that, I hate the fact they are weak and strong region, it's good when every region are competititve. The noweadays boundary are amazing, they are the same population in the 4 regions, but I can understand the need of having smaller regions, especially the "scrim argument" in Amricas and Pacific. If that would happen I would hate turn back to the S1/S2 situation. I would do something kinda in between :

Japan and Korea
Asean and Oceania
European Union and Maghreb (Lets be honest Morocco player can't play on Bahrain in server,
Middle East (including Turkey)
NA-LAN (Same scrim ecosystem)
SA (BR-LAS) (Same scrim ecosystem)
China (But i'm afraid they become too strong in middle term, cause they would be so mush populated)
And still keeping 3 slots for everyone in champ
(Not sure where to place India, CIS, and Africa, maybe put CIS with middle east, not really sure about that)

#22

fun_at_the_waterslide

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combine CN and JP/KR and I agree.
Combining that with what I said earlier you get the perfect format imo.
6 leagues with 8 teams (2 of which are promo/relegation)

small thing, morocco and turkey are probably fine as hybrid subregions

#25

Anguibok

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Wait you want to combine JP, CN and KR ? Well no, that would make it really unbalanced. Maybe in 30 years when population fo thoose 3 country would have drop massively, but now it's too early :/

hybrid suggestion ?

#27

fun_at_the_waterslide

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excluding G2, Americas is half US teams. Also if you have promotion/relegation it literally wont matter over a few years because teams will be in the league based on merit.

Hybrid as in players for Turkey will play in both VCT EU and VCT ME, and it will be up to the org to see which one they would like to compete in

#28

Anguibok

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I keep at least 5 franchised in all of them, franchise is nice.

I would dislike hybrid, Middle East wouldn't enough strong if TR player could play in EU x)

#31

fun_at_the_waterslide

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The thing is there is no such thing as franchising in valorant, we have 'partnered' teams. The main difference is that they get paid to be part of the league. Because there is no relegation, there is literally no reason to try and have good teams.

And yeah, maybe ME being weak could be a concern. But it depends on what turkish teams and players want, which has so far been to be closer to europe (in the context of VCT)

#10

Farambe

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How does it go up to 14? Next year we will have 12, but then in 2026 G2 will be demoted back down and we will down to 11 but another is promoted making it 12?

#11

Psion

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It starts having 2 teams go up and down every year

#12

Mortadelo

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2024 1 team ascends, 12 team league
2025 2 teams ascend, 2023 team descends, 13 team league
2026 2 teams ascend, 2024 team descends, 14 team league
2027 2 teams ascend, both 2025 teams descend, 14 team league forever

#13

Farambe

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oh shit LOL, why didnt we just start with 2 ascensions anyways lmao, would have prevented so much trouble with the format and shit lmao, same with the 13 team league

ALSO having 2 teams ascend would make the grand finals goofy af - 0 stakes basically pointless game no?

#14

Mortadelo

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yeah, ig they just wanted to do it progressively for some reason

#18

Anguibok

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I think they where afraid they couldn't make so many team in one year tournament.

That was really a mistake, 11 and 13 format will be absolutely horrible, and people complaining about not having enough game.

My hope is that next year, they extend G2, DRG, M8, BLD to 3 year, so we wont have 13 teams, (In Americas, I think G2 will take EG spot, so the solution would be to promote 2 team instead of one to have 12 teams)

#49

_Esdeath_

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so even if the 2024 wins champs do they still descend in 2026? in this case g2

#51

Mortadelo

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No anymore, this is 2 month old and Riot has updated it for the next years. Now you do get to keep your spot if you make champs, as long as the other ascension teams don’t place better than you

#52

_Esdeath_

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So this only affects teams that come from ascension?
For an example, a team like sentinels will never go to t2 regardless of their performance?

#67

Mortadelo

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Yes

#23

nooomy

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no it doesnt? ascension teams get relegated after two years which means it isnt going bigger than 12 lmao

#24

Mortadelo

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bother to do the research before laughing buddy, #12

#34

nooomy

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when did they say that 2 teams are ascending

#35

DuD5K1S

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In the original anouncement video back in 2022
https://nerdstreet.com/news/2022/8/valorant-vct-2023-challengers-leagues-challengers-ascension

#36

fun_at_the_waterslide

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bro edited out 'you moron'
here is where they said it... 'moron'
https://imgur.com/a/6VIwHht

#37

nooomy

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ya cause i came across like a dick for no reason

#38

DuD5K1S

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Accountability +respect

#41

NecroticLife

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.

#58

coconutMALLED

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this isnt accurate as of a month ago, they chose to change the ascension format, capping it at 12 teams

https://www.vlr.gg/363225/riot-reveals-challengers-and-ascension-changes-for-2025

#68

Mortadelo

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Ik, this threads are 2 months old

#6

Cosmic_

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crazy how G2 is just a guest team and might win masters

#8

Mortadelo

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Maybe, but 100% not as you just described. This is not a traditional sport, teams get better from one day to another.

I've been giving the same example all year, what would have happened if we had relegation last year? We wouldn't have this year teams like KC, TH or KRU who are all extremely popular orgs with extremely high chances of making champs. Instead we would have random mid ass roster with -3 fans like Apeks

A guy was proposing the other day a relegation just for ascension teams, so that instead of going down every 2 years, only the 2 worse teams of the eventually 4 ascension teams descend. That way good ascension teams get to stay indefinitely. I like the idea more than any other relegation idea but I think it still has problems like teams ascending for just 1 season which sucks

#16

fun_at_the_waterslide

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Relegation for ascension teams only might be an idea, but actually good ascension team(s) will just gatekeep tier 1, whilst other low feeders will stay in. It's not a bad if you're given the presumption that we will absolutely not have partnered relegation.

But I think your argument is flawed in the sense that you're not taking into account that perhaps teams such as Heretics would've probably invested more if there was an actual RISK of being relegated. Sure maybe they wouldn't have been as good as they are now, but the quality across the whole league would still be higher

#21

Mortadelo

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I disagree tho, KOI invested a lot last year and had on paper an amazing roster but look at how it ended. This year they had circumstances during the offseason but they'll be back investing a lot of money this year, definitely more than any current tier 2 org can

When TH and KRU made those rosters they thought they were gonna be good, I don't think that pressure would have made them perform any better

But yeah the partnered relegation is never gonna happen realistically

#33

fun_at_the_waterslide

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Investment ∝̸ Results (directly), you can't bish bash players together and expect it to work 100% of the time, you need a system in place to incorporate new players, the best example of this is G2, they only just got Icy but they're already at least top 3 in Shanghai, compare this to a team like NRG who built what was hyped up to be the 2nd NA superteam. Every team is subject to their own 'circumstances'.

You're implying that tier 2 teams can't afford t1 salaries, and this is true. But just because its true doesn't mean its good, in fact this is an issue; an issue which a relegation system would help solve, the goal is to have tier 2 full of actually decent orgs who can afford it. To actually incentivise those decent orgs to play in t2, a solution is frequent relegation, as there's an actual chance for any well managed team to make it into tier 1

Yeah they thought they were gonna be 'good', but thats in context of the budget. Also relegation is quite literally designed to create pressure, so them not being able to perform under pressure would be just one reason for them to be in contention for relegation.

#19

Anguibok

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One of my wet dream would have a tournament with 16 teams, 8 franchised team and 8 ascended team, the group could be made based on that, and you could even have relegation between stage 1 and 2 (It's kinda a mess for the whole "Doing a full round robin" when a team get just promoted, but it's kinda doable to be fair, just give half of possible point to the team that just get promoted)

But sound kinda irrealistic so i'll stick to the "I want group being based on geography"

#32

sexocum

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Riot wouldn't do it cause sustainability or sum lol

#48

Serath

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Riot wouldn't do it. Also there has to be some consistency in franchising otherwise we could all just go back to open qualifiers.

#50

KClaw

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I think tbh they shouldnt have changed and it should have been 14 teams in total , and yes top two make it to t1 is awesome making the orgs investment worthwhile

#53

Aayan

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8 partnered 4 spots up for grabs is what I would like. If a partnered team really really shits the bed for years on end, they should be able to partner one of the ascended teams and give the former t1 team the 'guest slot' for that year

#54

m1ssocio

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Asides from the spectacle, which would make the competition even more interesting, there arent a lot more benefits from it. imagine TL, who invested a lot of money on their actual roster, or any other org, in some scenario where they get relegated because of a bad season (possible, any org can have a bad season) the economic state of the team would just implode and collapse the whole scene, making big teams scale more and more far from the little orgs (if thats happenin on franchising rn imagine this scenario), and the big ones who get relegated would just retire from the game because of the big waste of money and the lack of results.
The tiny orgs wont be able to compete against teams like fnatic, prx, etc. because they wont have the money, continuity or interest on doing it, which is pretty important on the esport scene because of the little amount of money these orgs make per season (its not like some big company or firm would just save them, this aint football. Companies like valve and riot are the principal fountain of money from these esport teams, which is kinda sad when you just take a look at the actual scene of the teams without suitable bussiness plans like again fnatic, prx or c9, who just dissapear after some years/months).

#56

Nachtel

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I think relegation for all teams should be put in place like 5 years down the line if money from team skins and champs skins and subsidies from riot goes significantly up,

Once a spot in VCT genuinely becomes a financially lucrative venture, teams will fight tooth and nail to keep their spot, and orgs like C9 and EG will stop it with the budget rosters. But if you keep them permanently they'll just leech off of riot paychecks like they have so far

Supposedly the increased funds from being in partnership should make up for the ramped up costs of needing and not just wanting to maintain a competitive roster

#65

Idoski

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I think there should be a relegation system for all bad teams if they really want to keep it,

All horribly performing teams (Looking at you MIBR) get relegated/have to fight for their spot

A nicer option might be an Ascension team stays for however long but if they place high enough in tourneys they get a perma spot. It's kinda messed up that teams that weren't chosen for franchising are just stuck without a permanent spot in franchising forever

#66

fun_at_the_waterslide

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Yes hard agree. Stability is important I get that, but if 8/12 teams are boring to watch because they'll realise it's more profitable to just make content and sell bundles, instead of competing internationally, people who care about the quality of gameplay will stop watching the esport