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Studies on Reaction Time

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#1
moomoomoomeadows

Hi! I keep writing this out and then I try to post and the forum gets nuked. Fair enough, shouldn't respond to baiters. Here are three studies on cis Female/Male reaction time that I found when I was told to "search on google, lots of research done" or something similar.

  • https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4456887/ - Says that yes, sedentary men and women compared shows men have a slightly faster reaction time. However, active participants had equal reaction time. No biological difference in athletes. So if say I was meL (fit as fuck), I would have an improved reaction time equal to a man.

  • https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-16045-1 - Studied reaction time in driving. Found that yes, men had a slightly higher reaction time--when they only steered. Women would have a +0.022 ms difference but would both steer and brake. I would argue in esports this is comparable to men being able to move the mouse onto the target, but women able to also click.

  • https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2044-8295.1980.tb01766.x - I didn't actually read this so roast me accordingly (science calls for it) but the abstract does support the claims of the second study, that women are able to make choices faster where men move faster, effectively making their reaction time the same when actually doing something.

I encourage those who are "concerned" about a biological difference in gaming to bring their own studies for us to discuss intellectually.

#2
Katharize
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Why do teams without trans people struggle against teams with trans people?

#4
moomoomoomeadows
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I can't find a scientific reason but I'd suspect a mix of confirmation bias on your part and the same reason teams with all men struggle against teams with all men (skill/practice diff)! Thanks for asking!

#9
zombzino
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also the fact that a lot of these transgender individuals grew up boys in their youth, where they were socially and culturally in a pro-video game environment, versus biological women who typically don't get into shooter games until much older due to societal norms. Your point of confirmation bias is also a great point as well since there are numerous of other transgender pros with less success

#22
shaggyboy1030
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In india there is quite a big societal norm on women in games (although majority young women themselves think that gaming is for boys so can't do anything about that :)) ........ but is this similar to canada or US too because as a 1st world and more progressive country is the societal norm similar??

#23
zombzino
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its more "normal" for teenage girls to be in video games... but young girls? I wouldn't say so at all

#45
shaggyboy1030
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teen like early teens or later teens

#51
zombzino
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I'd say after 14

#36
Sk00d
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societal reasons actually, but ok

#31
midzera
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Anybody can reach their mechanical ceiling - in Valorant's case, that is Radiant ranked. This requires not only being mechanically strong and have good game sense, but being consistent with it and having the stamina to grind out ranked for hours. Whilst there is no difference between men and women in these areas, there are probably social factors at play which might deter women from pushing themselves as far as possible to reach Radiant and even high Radiant (800-1000+ RR).

Gaming in general is quite male dominated and women tend to receive additional toxicity just because of their sex. This can be demotivating to play for longer periods which means less chances of hitting Radiant and pushing your mechanical potential. Now, I can't speak on behalf of trans people, but given that voice comms is audio-based, if a trans-woman who has started transition or nonbinary person (Assigned Male At Birth) were to speak over the mic, other plays around them might think they're just another guy and therefore there isn't a jump to potentially say sexist/misogynistic comments alongside general toxicity. This isn't always the case, but I feel like women have a higher chance to receive unwarranted comments regardless of if they play good or bad.

Mechanical skill isn't the be-all, end-all, but in this tournament, it has been evident that the finalists are better than other teams in this department and that just comes from grinding the game to the very top in ranked - it helps to keep this result consistent.

#33
Takzul
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So in conclusion women are too emotional? That is why they dont make T1 and T2 or push for high RR?

#34
Tomczi
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not really, fps games aren't that popular with woman, in general so that means smaller talent pool and even if certain fps game had big amount of woman, that play that game, they wouldnt reach the same highs as men, since they don't have a mentality to grind that much, but that take is just my opinion.

#3
valkin
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this is such a stupid debate lol

#5
CoCloudy
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How exactly?

#10
moomoomoomeadows
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I think valkin (can correct me) is referring to the fact that

  1. reaction time might not even matter as mentioned by #6 and #7
  2. even my 15 minutes of research found the claim is false meaning that this argument over biological differences is just people sharing hate!
    Thanks for engaging!
#6
Uncleben
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Also don’t fns and boaster have the fastest reaction times on their teams? Reaction time isn’t that big of an advantage especially in a more smooth and burst/tap heavy game like valo

#8
nobody___100
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fns is the best aimer in vct, so there is a direct correlation

#11
moomoomoomeadows
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I can't leave this be no the fuck FNS isn't the best aimer in VCT lmao let me find some stats to prove this
FNS has a lifetime KDA of 0.97 and hs% of 40% w/ vandal
Just his teammate Mada has a lifetime KDA of 1.45 and a hs% of 45.7% w/ vandal

#12
Gre4t
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pretty sure that was a joke

#14
Uncleben
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You should delete this comment this might be one of the more embarrassing posts I’ve seen

#17
moomoomoomeadows
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no I stand by it I can't just leave blantant misinformation on my science post

#16
unilarity
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we all know that lmfao

#20
nobody___100
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fns has a lifetime of yours and mada's combined

#21
Waking_W
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😭

#7
StutterSt3p
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It just needs to be said that the reaction time differences really do not matter that much. This point just makes no sense.

#13
aexbigb0t
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I think men just have that natural gamesense lowkey

#18
moomoomoomeadows
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Okay! Do you have a source or a measure?

#15
crocodilemaniac
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and what exactly are you proving?

#19
moomoomoomeadows
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I am trying to prove that there is no biological difference between men and women in esports! Do you have any other questions?

#24
peetherium
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Do you think any of the retards spewing hate are legitimately going to bother to attempt actually disproving you? They instigate this shit because they're ppl with nothing else better to do than spam rage bait 24/7 and get ppl who actually have a brain like you to engage

#25
Yuh_aye
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Firstly, I should start by saying I don't think think there is a meaningful biological advantage, and further still, I don't even think GC should exist at all

But as someone who does this stuff for a living, i felt the need to chime in because you're not drawing your conclusion from ultra-sound reasoning

Study 1

You did get the basic ideas right but your conclusion is kinda off. The study itself has a section on gender which sums it all up neatly:

A review of the literature on the influence of gender on RT shows that in almost every age group, males have faster RTs as compared to females, and female disadvantage is not reduced by practice.[13,14,15] Researches done by Misra et al.[16] also showed that males responded faster than females. Study done by Shelton and Kumar,[11] Nikam and Gadkari[17] also reported similar findings to support females have longer RTs than males. The results of our study [Table 2a] agree with these studies and indicate that male medical students have faster RTs when compared to female medical students for both auditory, as well as visual stimuli. In our study when sedentary male and female medical students [Table 2b] were compared removing any confounding factors, RTs of male students were faster; thereby further supporting the evidence that males have faster RTs than females.
The male-female difference is due to the lag between the presentation of the stimulus and the beginning of muscle contraction. It is documented in the literature that the muscle contraction time is the same for males and females[18] and motor responses in males are comparatively stronger than females,[19] this explains why males have faster simple RTs for both auditory as well as visual stimuli. Nowadays the male advantage is getting smaller, possibly because more women are participating in driving and fast-action sports.[19] This is evident from Table 2c in which nonsignificant differences were obtained when regularly exercising male and female medical students were compared.

So yes, they did in fact find a non-significant difference between regularly exercising men and women. But notice that in the discussion of gender, the conclusion was not that there is no difference, but that the male advantage is 'getting smaller', purportedly because of driving or fast action sports (a hypothesis for another time). You shouldn't draw the conclusion that the authors think they proved that there is no difference at all between 'fit' men vs women, but that their results are in line with the existing literature that established a shrinking (to what extent?) difference under certain conditions. They conclude in pretty clear terms:

Male medical students have faster RTs as compared to female medical students for both auditory, as well as visual stimuli.

It should also be noted that the samples for the 'fit' men vs women test was much lower (literally n=4 for the women) compared to every other test.
And yes, I am well aware that statistically speaking there isn't anything necessarily invalid about this (if you look at the history of the T-test it actually was developed for small samples), but it is something to keep in mind.

The bigger problem though is that your application of this to Valorant, which sort of relies on the assumption that professional gamers are a category of people who live an active lifestyle. Even if there a couple here and there.. I don't think it's a reach to say that it's actually the opposite in the vast majority of cases (very sedentary).

Study 2

The study itself notes that their result isn't in line with a previous study, and suggests that it's because of the way they measured reaction time:

A possible explanation is that, in the present study the reaction time is defined as the time between the moment that the L3 AV system issues the takeover request and the moment that drivers have completely switched to the manual driving position, which is the position where the drivers have put their hands on the steering wheel, feet on the pedals and eyes on the road. Before the moment that the L3 AV detects the stationary red vehicle and initiates a takeover request to the drivers, it was performing automated driving and the drivers were performing the non-driving related task (reading) and were completely disengaged from driving. Therefore, at the moment that they were suddenly asked by the L3 AV to take over control of the vehicle, they had little information about the current driving situation. Croson and Gneezy42 suggested that, when dealing with uncertain situations, females are more cautious and less confident compared to males, which may have resulted in a slightly faster movement to switch back to the manual driving position among female participants in this study, thus leading to a faster reaction time. Moreover, another possible reason could be that, as females are found to be more concerned about automated vehicles than males33,36, their higher level of concern may have led to a more eager desire to regain manual control of the vehicle, thus they exhibited faster reactions as soon as they perceived the takeover request issued by the L3 AV. Apart from their faster reaction times, female drivers were found to have significantly smaller steering wheel angles compared to male drivers, with a significant difference of 1.41° (95% CI 0.04° to 2.78°), which reflects a slightly more stable operation of the steering wheel during the takeover process and thus indicating better takeover performance. This is in accordance with the findings of previous studies about gender difference in terms of driving behaviour. Compared to males, female drivers exhibited more cautious and less risk-taking driving behaviour, and were more patient in urgent situations29,30,42.

tldr : there's reason to believe that their results with regards to reaction time had to do with women being more cautious drivers, because their
measure of reaction time had to do with retaking control of a (simulated) vehicle and/or making subsequent decisions (i.e being quicker to turn on your indicator to change lanes - literally one of the tasks).

I also don't know where '0.022 ms' came from. I literally cntrl searched the page for it and nothing came up.
And btw, the whole 'steer + brake' thing (figure 4) isn't even about reaction time.

Study 3

I'm ngl im not about to pay money to read this. I'm just gonna be lazy and point out that it's from 1980 and Study 1 is more recent and included a literature review which ran contra the abstract presented here.

#26
peetherium
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Off topic but I'm curious. what's your opinion on how standardized data is interpreted in society? i see ppl saying all kinds of different shit with the same paper/source so i'm wondering how you see it as someone who's area of interest coincides with it

#27
Yuh_aye
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Hard to make a broad statement on all of society. I'll say even by vlr standards op's arguments are bad (confusing figure 4 from study 2 to be related to reaction time is a pretty unforgivable mistake if you want to be taken seriously)

I'd say overall it's not too bad except for two areas:

News/Politics: If you see a news article that is trying to push a political agenda of any type (very common), be very careful with whatever stat they throw at you, because 1. Journalists aren't very good at stats. and 2. It's famously easy to twist data to fit a narrative.
As an example, there's a notorious stat/study that suggested that having a gun in your household made you much more likely to get die to one. Purely Statistically it's true, but it turns out that one of the reasons people get guns in the first place is because they live in sketchy areas where they are dealing with gun violence.

Social Studies Research: In particular, the paradigm of Null-Hypothesis-Significance-Testing (NHST) got so butchered over the years in the social sciences (psychology in particular), that one journal banned it and the American Statistical Society had to make a statement on its proper use.

Outside of those two areas its not too bad.

#38
ash_knuckles
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Study 3: https://sci-hub.ru/https://doi.org/10.1111/j.2044-8295.1980.tb01766.x

Argues that men and women perform evenly on choice rt tasks. owing to their significantly faster decision time which complements their slower movement time.

The paper is kinda shit, as the core of their argument is fractured between multiple equally outdated papers (locked behind paywalls I cant bypass), but men and women between the 20-30 age range have been shown to perform at around the same range , so their conclusion is true I guess.

Overall the argument is boring, even for scientists (they'd much rather research age differences and decline than sex) and the differences are marginal.

I think it can be be done if exceptional females could be incentivized to apply more effort, and gc fails at this.

#42
moomoomoomeadows
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Thank you, I agree, I didn't read through the studies very well. I don't do science for a living. Do you feel that there are enough studies on the effects of biological sex on reaction time that we could make a conclusion?

#44
ash_knuckles
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there aren't enough (good) papers that could be applied to the specific case of esports.
Tbh i think there are some differences, but for choice rt the differences are marginal enough that they can be ignored at +1 s.d

#46
Yuh_aye
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I can't say i'm the world's expert on reaction times, but it seems to me there's 2 distinct questions

  1. Is there a sex based difference in reaction times?

There is probably a small, but measurable difference.

  1. Does this constitute an insurmountable advantage that requires separation for the purposes of fairness like most traditional sports (Track, Weightlifting, Swimming, Basketball, etc)

Almost certainly not

#28
ash_knuckles
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simple rt and choice rt is different anyway. mel, sarah and noia's RT's can keep up with the +1S.D male epsorts player (I have a decent amt of stockpiled indicative video proof, but I'm afk so I cba)

I unironically think mel could've made at least t2 by now if she'd just focused on herself as a player and not become the bastion of gc, but that's just speculation.

#29
Takzul
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Theres no money in t2 compared to gc.

#30
ash_knuckles
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I'm talking pre franchising. If MAJKL mel had split off and kept trying for t2 instead of being elevated to some poster girl, she probably would've. Sarah as well.
idk about noia because gc made her come here in the first place.

#32
Wezzaa
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Istg every day there is a new one of these

#35
Tomczi
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Why do you think men are much better at fps games than women then? in ur opinion

#41
moomoomoomeadows
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Social factors! Thanks for asking!

#37
uwukitten
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now look at studies regarding motor skills and hand eye coordination

#39
my-dad-ate-my-toes
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Some of the brainlets I've seen on this site would see this and probably claim the study was fake because it disagrees with them

#40
x_knowitall39_x
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you’ve never read a study a day in your life haven’t you

#43
moomoomoomeadows
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I have but I admit I'm not well versed in scientific jargon. Do you have any specific criticisms you'd like to add to the conversation?

#47
r1ot
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Fact - The one player in GC to stand head and shoulders above the rest is transgender, end of discussion.

#48
Harapan845
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on hormone replacement

#49
r1ot
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Not going to engage in further conversation due to it turning into an emotional 'well what about x' back and forth, just stating this simple fact and people can take it as they will.

#50
bigandtasty
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Our society has come to the point where we deny the trends we see with our eyes because we want a study to prove the obvious

I don’t need a study to know black ppl r faster than everyone else after watching the Olympics

But for some reason ppl don’t want to acknowledge the trends we see in esports

Reality is a game like valorant isn’t reduced to who has the best reaction time

There are factors beyond physical which determine why a player is good

If we want to only attribute tangible physical differences to why males succeed in competitive environments

Please explain the disparity in chess to me

Whatever it is, we can see dudes are better than girls in valorant

We can choose to accept that and create a space for women to be competitive, without being politically correct

Or we can continue to pretend it’s not the case and keep letting trans women take the glory from women and pretend that’s fair

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