are rules bending or is this not a problem
https://x.com/ns_observing/status/1914653061701886224
https://x.com/Francisvlrt/status/1914654180800913560
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ns situation
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4-1 Map differential. RRQ and TLN exits 4-way tie due to having the highest and lowest map differential.
4-(a) Reduced to 2 teams. T1 NS are tie. Utilize H2H data.
- RRQ 2. T1 3. NS 4. TLN
this should be the case if riot reduces the teams to 2, not sure why they chose 3
2 infact makes more sense since only two teams have different map diff (tln/rrq) and two teams have same map diff (ns/t1)
they didnt give us a reason so we can definitely appeal on why this was done on a whim, LIKE REDUCING THEM TO TWO TEAMS FOR SURE MAKES MORE SENSE ACCORDING TO THE RULES
https://www.vlr.gg/476826/pacific-playoffs/#2
I had the same doubt yesterday, not sure why they had to seperate rrq as 1st and use different method to rank the rest three teams
It's very, very simple.
There are four teams (RRQ, TLN, T1, NS), so we use the four-way tie breaker (map differential) to put RRQ in 1st.
Then there are three teams (TLN, T1, NS), so we use the three-way tie breaker (head-to-head) to put TLN in 2nd.
Then there are two teams (T1, NS), so we use the two-way tie breaker (head-to-head match score) to put T1 in 3rd and NS in 4th.
That's how these tie breakers work.
You're not looking at how many teams there are in the tie and then going down the respective list. You're trying to narrow down the number of teams in the tie by removing teams from it. We had 4 teams, so we narrowed it down to 3, and then to 2.
If ties reduce to 2-3 teams, utilize appropriate tie breakers above, If there is no head-to-head data, then the rest of these tie breakers apply.
To support in verbatim, under 4+ Way Tie-Breaker Process: (a) Note. Regardless if there is any mis implementation regarding the rule note above, it is the correct procedure. Now, while the matchups are already drawn, it is up to Riot Pacific League OPS whether or not they want to recount.
The question that gets brought up here is:
If we're removing RRQ from the tiebreaker due to a positive map differential, why are we not applying the rule of map differential to Talon as well, because they have a 0 map differential?
Reducing it to a 2-way tiebreaker.
Thus making it a H2H between T1 and NS only
The note mentions that it is technically possible to reduce the 4-way tiebreaker to a 2-way tiebreaker.
When going through a tie breaker, what we're trying to do isn't sort the teams, but rather decide a winner. So when we find a winner in RRQ between the four teams, there are now three teams who remain tied. That's when we move to a three-team tie breaker.
To clarify on the note, it's possible for a four-way tie breaker to break into two individual two-way tie breakers. For example, if TLN had the same map differential as RRQ, then they'd go into a tie breaker for 1st and 2nd, whilst T1 and NS would go into a separate tie breaker for 3rd and 4th.
Yeah, this whole thing is definitely a huge misunderstanding, and the rules need to not only be rewritten for clarification, but also disclosed to teams in a way that's comprehensive.
Also, note: when it says "determines who advances," they mean which team advances past the tie breaker. Again, an instance of lack of clarity in wording
Why TLN Got 2nd Place:
Head-to-Head was a key factor once RRQ was separated as 1st, and TLN’s H2H victories over NS and T1 secured their 2nd place.
Even in a 4-way tie, after RRQ’s placement, the tie among TLN, T1, and NS was resolved by H2H, with TLN having the best record.
NS fell to 4th due to the worst H2H results (losing to both TLN and T1).
i think the problem is that why riot use 4-way tie to get the 1st seed only and not using the rules to rank 4 of the tied team. my argument is they should use 4-way tie map diff to rank the team (rrq 1st, t1-ns tied, talon 4th) and then use the 2-way tie h2h between tied teams (t1 2nd, ns 3rd). its because they don't mention that you can only reduce 1 team from 4-way tie, so it can be 2 team reduced at once.
That's exactly how it should be. Map differential should be applied to all teams eligible for a tie breaker even after a clear 1st is determined. Since they used map diff as the metric to determine that rrq is 1st then that should mean that it must be applied to the rest first before moving onto the next step.
Yup, they are nothing in the rulebook that say we take out the 1st team out of the tiebreaker, before the last, since the same rule sort out in the same time they are out in the same time.
They could have make a rule where the 1st team is out of the tiebreaker before the last, but since it wasn't specified in the rulebook then we shouldn't do that
1.The VCT tiebreaker rules (Rule 1: Map Differential) clearly state that RRQ was separated as 1st place before TLN due to having the best Map Differential.
2.TLN was not eliminated alongside RRQ because the tiebreaker process is about ranking teams, not eliminating them simultaneously.
3.After RRQ secured 1st place, the tie among TLN, T1, and NS was resolved using Head-to-Head (H2H) as per Rule 5, with TLN earning 2nd place.
4.Thus, there is no scenario where RRQ and TLN should be eliminated together, as the rules are designed to separate the best-performing team (RRQ) first based on Map Differential.
rule 5: If ties reduce to 2-3 teams, utilize appropriate tie breakers above which mean (2 and 3-way tie)
1/ Wrong, it's not stated "Best map differential", but "map differential" https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpI305Ma4AAXyKv?format=jpg&name=medium, they are no reason to consider best is before last if we take the rulebook as it is.
2/ Not specified in the rulebook, and I challenge you again to find something that state it
5/ I take in account that rule
(1) mapdiff : RRQ > NS/T1 > TLN
(a) return to head to head : Tie is reduced to 2 teams, so we use the above tiebreaker of the 3 way tie, wish is head to head where T1 > NS
- ok, Its not Best Map Differential but Map Differential is used to separate the team with the highest differential (RRQ) first. Ranking from highest to lowest is a standard method.
- https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/1dwg8cx/vct_2024_tiebreaker_clarification/
and https://liquipedia.net/valorant/VCT/2023/Americas_League - you misunderstood that the tie was reduced to 2 teams (T1 and NS). In reality, it was a 3-way tie (TLN, T1, NS), and H2H was used to resolve the ranking for all three teams, resulting in TLN in 2nd, T1 in 3rd, and NS in 4th.
Rule 1 (Map Differential) and Rule 5 (ties reduce to 2-3 teams) support separating RRQ as 1st due to the highest Map Differential. There is no scenario where RRQ and TLN are eliminated together, as the tiebreaker is a ranking process, not a simultaneous elimination.
1/ "Ranking from highest to lowest is a standard method."
In some rulebook it is, and in some rulebook it's not, if it's the case in the rulebook, it needs to be written, you cant say "I saw other tournament where it's working like that, so it has to work like that too". I think the problem isnt that Riot can't read their rulebook, I think Riot didn't manage to do a rulebook that match with the idea they add :/
3/ Your point 3 is true, only with your interpretation of the rulebook, that is based on not what the rulebook says, but on what other rulebook you have read in the past says (Your argument "It's a standard method"), if we take exactly what the rulebook says and not try to use another rulebook to justify riot decision, RRQ and TLN are out of the rulebook in the exact same time.
The inclusion of Rule 5 (If ties reduce to 2-3 teams) indicates that the process expects some portion of the tie to be resolved (RRQ securing 1st place) before the remaining teams proceed with the next tiebreaker.
I agreed with Riot may not have written the rules clearly enough.
But the reason I used the example from 2023 is to serve as a benchmark for the decision-making this year. And the rules used in 2023 and 2025 aren’t much different.
Both years use head-to-head as a key criterion when a decision can be made, especially when the tie narrows down to just 2 or 3 teams.
They are nothing in the rulebook that says RRQ secure the first place before TLN secure the 4th place, with how it's worded, RRQ secure the 1st place in the same time than TLN secure the 4th place.
But I agree making RRQ 1st before TLN 4th is probably what Riot want to do since day 1, but thats not what is written in the rulebook x)
NS said riot mistake their own tiebreaker rule and should be 2ndinstead of 4th https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpI305Ma4AAXyKv?format=jpg&name=medium
Both are wrong and they should be 3rd
(1) mapdiff : RRQ > NS/T1 > TLN
(a) return to head to head : Tie is reduced to 2 teams, so we use the above tiebreaker of the 3 way tie, wish is head to head where T1 > NS
Once a team wins a tiebreaker, the rules are reset for every other team. This is how tiebreakers have worked for basically every sport ever. The tiebreakers are to determine a winner, not a loser. The winner of the 4 way tie (RRQ) advances, so now we have three teams in a tie who need to have their order determined. Since one team (talon) beat the other two, they get second.
"Once a team wins a tiebreaker, the rules are reset for every other team." "The tiebreakers are to determine a winner, not a loser"
Not specified in the rulebook, if it's not written in the rulebook then they are no reason to remove the 1st team in the tiebreaker before the last, and both should be out in the same time. They are some rulebook, that take out the 2 team in the same time, and how it's framed it's how it should have been. You cant just say "it's not written in the rulebook, but it's the usual thing" (Especially when it's not)
Why are you acting has if Riot have never failed to apply their own rulebook ?
Also, you can have a clear idea on how the tiebreaker are done, but being unable to write it on a rulebook.
It's really possible Riot always wanted the rule to be as you say, but that they where unable to write it correctly.
H2H
RRQ beat T1 and Talon, and lose to ns ( Record 2-1)
Talon beat T1 and Ns, and lose to RRQ ( Record 2-1)
T1 only beat Ns (Record 1-2)
NS only beat RRQ (Record 1-2)
So now we got 2 different record, which is 2-1 for seed 1 nd 2, and 1-2 for seed 3 and 4
So, after H2H, now we use Map diff rulee
So RRQ had +map diff and talon is -1,, so RRQ is #1 and Talon is #2
Then, T1 had more map diff than NS, so T1 is #3 and Talon is #4
Thats not the rule https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpI305Ma4AAXyKv?format=jpg&name=medium
But it would have been better than what we have
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