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Gc is misunderstood

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#1
Cheasle2

I wanted to make this post regarding gamechangers, and all the controversy surrounding women in esports, and particularly trans players in GC. If you have a strong opinion on this, I suggest you read and listen.

biologically, there is 0 difference in skill between men and women.
the difference comes socially; 10-20 years ago, boys could freely play video games as kids, but girls would often be shunned, pushed away from it, dissuaded by parents etc. It wasn't socially acceptable for girls to play, but for boys it was fine.
This of course has the knock-on effect, that nowadays, 20 years later (2024) the boys who grew up playing video games are much much better, especially at the pro level, since they have grown up playing video games their whole lives. considering being an esports player was a dream for many young boys, but was completely denied for many young girls.

Game Changers is Riot's way of telling young girls it's ok to play video games. I'm sure there are plenty of young girls who are inspired by gamechangers to strive for pro, and in a few years times the top talents will be emerging; girls who also grew up playing video games their whole lives, and with a dream of going pro. The talent pool will be much wider.
The reason why trans players are 'better' in GC is obvious; they were boys during their childhood!

Many people come to the question then; why allow trans/non-binary players into game changers? They didn't face the societal struggles that women did when they were younger and wanted to play video games. This is true! trans players often didn't face societal backlash as kids, but through their teenage years, and now into late teens/early 20s where a majority of trans players in esports fit - they are facing significant societal backlash, bullying and hatred for simply existing. GC allows trans players to compete, because trans players, like women, are also looking for a space where they can compete free of judgement and bullying AND is Riot's way of communicating to younger trans fans that it's ok to be who you are, and that esports is a space for them as well - because face the facts, there aren't any trans players in the main circuit either.

So, if you actually read through this, thank you. And if you are one of the people who is critical of GC's eligibility rules, I hope that you can appreciate that GC is more than a "women's league" and serves a much bigger purpose for the future of women and trans players in Valorant, esports and in society.

#2
kanyefan4238173
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There is a difference biologically I’d say but I don’t make much of it

Social difference is definitely why they made gc

#3
Dreoxx
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I agree with you but I also agree with OPs post other than that singular point. its very much critical to expand the horizon of the non-male FPS, and moreso gaming community.

#77
rumbledink
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Ok professor

#4
hontonikireidesu
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I would like to think of it the other way, 10-20 years ago there isn't a widespread use of they/them pronouns. By the same token, shouldn't biological males compete in VCT instead since they had prior exposure to computer games and thus should be categorized together with males He/his?

#22
kingop3n
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language changes over time. thats never a solid proof of something.

#82
Lito
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What you're saying is somewhat sound but exposure to video games is only one aspect of it i'd say. Another aspect is the environment of joining pro teams and practicing with them. You can imagine just like how it could happen with women, if a trans person tried scrimming and trialing 10-20 years ago, they could have a hard time finding that space, and might not be taken seriously

The path to going pro that GC is trying to provide is not just exposing girls to computer games, its also the team eco systems they offer, the scrims that come from it and the lan experience stuff

#85
jawn
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they/them pronouns have always been used to refer to gender ambiguity

#5
LeGOATE
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Sorry OP but "biologically, there is 0 difference in skill between men and women." is not true, men have faster response time than women. And if you know when it comes to FPS game response time is one of the advantage. You can look it up on Google you will see a lot of researches about this.

#11
moomoomoomeadows
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Hi! I found some studies on google, I think this is the first that comes up (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4456887/) It found a small increase for men when they identified as sedentary but between women and men that were active they had a negligible difference explained away with the small sample size. So women that work out can have the same reaction time as men that work out. It's a tie.

This is the second (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-16045-1) it shows that a minority of men have a faster reaction time, they only do one task (steer) while women have a slightly slower time (0.018 ms) but can do two tasks (steer and brake). This implies that the reason for a woman's slower reaction is that they react smarter. I would say in esports you have to do more than just move your mouse, you have to click, which actually gives women a point here biologically.

Third (https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2044-8295.1980.tb01766.x) I can't access it because I'm not a British student but the abstract says women actually won out on reaction time.

If you'd like I can keep investigating this, but I think I've proven my point.

#51
YourLocalSkibidiSigma
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TLDR;

"Hey I found some studies that back my viewpoint but disregard all the other studies that disagree with them, which doesnt prove anything"

#59
jakecid
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TLDR;

"i''m a bigot and think that any fact and evidence that doesn't align with my views is fake"

One of them is a government article by the National Library of Medicine. Your opinion is wrong and you're too stupid and ignorant to admit it.

#60
YourLocalSkibidiSigma
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What? Bro theres like a million studies that conclude that men have faster reaction time and this cringelord picked out the one outlier to prove their point. And you call me a bigot? You are clearly very ignorant. You are the very thing you described me as. Ironic

#62
jakecid
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Are those studies done by Government agencies? Not sure if you remember learning about reliable sources in school but .gov sources and evidence are the most reliable. You are a bigot. Anyone named YourLocalSkibidiSigma has no place in discussing the validity of sources. You are a bigot, stick to things you can comprehend like making burgers at McDonalds.

#69
TheHardStuckImmortal
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and find me a study where the difference is so staggering that you can be conclusive that it would have an effect in esports. I have debunked this retarded argument multiple times on this dogshit website.

#73
moomoomoomeadows
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Okay, show me the other studies then

#91
Sanax
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You can critique a study for questionable methods, but simply denying the value of a study simply because it contrasts from your viewpint just shows your childishness and foolishness.

#6
JackRipperTHEGREAT
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If there's biologically no difference in skill between men and women why has none of the gamechangers teams ever manage to qualify for the challengers leagues even the top GC teams failed(G2 Gozen, SR) while the VCT China teams which came into existence at the same time or even later are beating top NA and EMEA teams and even winning the VCT Champs? Explain me this phenomenon then?

#7
TM06Nick
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By this metric then SR should go through every time since flor is trans

#8
JackRipperTHEGREAT
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the other members are cis and last time I checked 5>1 right?

#10
moomoomoomeadows
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if theres no biological difference in indian players and american players how come american players are more often in vct than indian players? its because of social differences duh

#14
shaggyboy1030
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in respect to india it's less of social & more of financial i would say

#15
ohnyfans
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it is financial, mainly due to social issues, wouldn't you agree?

#21
shaggyboy1030
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Actually no, as our country is a 3rd world country computers are a luxury item for Indian families that's why mobile games are so much more famous in our countries and also we have the most price hike in computer parts in the whole world that is 92% so it is a luxury item even for middle class people forget the poor ones.
That's why i really feel blessed that my father has gifted me a pc when i am 5 yrs old and introduced me to Counter strike and other games

#41
ohnyfans
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ykw, that's fair. I was talking more so from the pov of those who can afford gear but don't go into esports, mainly cus it's looked down upon as a career.

#55
shaggyboy1030
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those who can afford high end gear either goes full content creation or just play single players and boast about their FPS not boasting but i can fuck them up with 120 fps and 40 ms

#24
charleser
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For India it's mainly the fact that PC gaming just isn't big over there, Indian gamers can't own a PC that runs at 100 fps and wifi issues on top of that

#31
shaggyboy1030
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PC gaming in India became mainstream a lot later than other countries so ig it will grow within a decade .... and our country has said they will start manufacturing computer parts in India which will help in reduction of cost sooo let's hope my kid's generation would be filled with PC gamers

#83
Xnep
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why dont they do an Indian league then?

#78
blandarius
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mhm i am sure those chinese teams didnt play fps games before :) what a stupid take.

#81
Liwus
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God some of you are really dumb

#87
jawn
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china is literally the biggest gaming market in the world

#9
MassterBaiter
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People are saying there's no biological difference between men and women in eSports..... Bruh every female GC team got shitted on during T2-T3 qualification rounds by T4 men's team......... Idk why people are just denying the simple evolution theory....... No offense to female player's but even if there are as much as female players online like there are male players there still will be skill gap due to the quick adaptability of men in general....... Some people will still cry about it that it's not possible but actually it is.......... NB are actually biologically men but they think they don't belong to any gender so that doesn't change the fact that their reaction time and adaptability is as same as a women team..... It'll be closer to male skills...........

Lamborghini won't be a Toyota if you put Toyota's Logo on Lambo........

#17
Cheasle2
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you clearly didn't read my post

#12
Bonkbonk201
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"biologically, there is 0 difference in skill between men and women." this is an ignorant take mostly made by people who don't understand or who haven't looked at basic scientific studies on the facts. https://www.acsm.org/news-detail/2023/09/29/acsm-releases-expert-consensus-statement-the-biological-basis-of-sex-differences-in-athletic-performance this is from the American college of sports medicine and it says in the first few statements of KEY FINDINGS "Biological sex is a determinant of athletic performance" if u want to read further into it I highly advise it because it doesn't just shit on women and say "men better" with the final key determination which says "The rate of improvement in athletic performance of women has exceeded that of men in the last 100 years across a multitude of sports as women have gained access to training, equipment, facilities, and opportunities."

"the difference comes socially; 10-20 years ago, boys could freely play video games as kids, but girls would often be shunned, pushed away from it, dissuaded by parents etc. It wasn't socially acceptable for girls to play, but for boys it was fine." I don't get the point of this because while yes, people were shunned for it and not given the same opportunities, if u really wanted to do something u could've still done it, just because people u know disagree with u does not = u needing to listen to their bullshit and therefore, in my opinion u should go after what u wanted to do despite the fact, I feel if u really cared about it you would've done such and I will accept that with some things such as football it was physically impossible to do so I understand there are barriers there, but on the contrary of that "if u really wanted to do something u could've still done it" comes into effect here, women wanted their ability to compete in these sports back so eventually they gained the momentum and the support to make it happen and it's turned out to be severely positive for I feel everyone involved. everything I've said here I feel also fits into "This of course has the knock-on effect, that nowadays, 20 years later (2024) the boys who grew up playing video games are much much better, especially at the pro level, since they have grown up playing video games their whole lives. considering being an esports player was a dream for many young boys, but was completely denied for many young girls."

"The reason why trans players are 'better' in GC is obvious; they were boys during their childhood!"
from https://www.brown.edu/news/2017-02-27/gameskill
"the research showed that people who played the most matches per week (more than 64) had the largest increase in skill over time. But playing lots of games wasn’t the most efficient way to improve skill. Looking at the data another way — in terms of which groups showed the most improvement per match rather an over time — showed markedly different results. That analysis showed that, over their first 200 matches, those who played four to eight matches week gained the most skill per match, followed by those who played eight to 16 matches." essentially it's like working out in a lot of ways, if u do lots of reps of heavy weight you'd assume you'd become stronger, but rather your just more injury prone and if u space it out and lift slightly less weight you'll consistently improve more over time, so while yes men have had more time to compete, everyone had the same amount of time to practice and I know stories of male footballers who were playing football for fun way before they became part of a club, so on one hand, yes you're right but women can still fairly easily catch up, and if they just enjoyed playing they'd already have been practicing, I would also like to make clear that esports does not have a long shelf life like football or other sports, people often retire around 25/30 apart from rare cases considering that fact it should be a lot easier for women to "catch up" especially if, like in Valorant they know they have a scene to work around, obviously there's opposing factors there like "oh we can't practice effectively due to toxic people or weird men being creeps" my advice for that would be, find a 5 stack and start to go hard to strats and improve your aim/movement and other repetitive things in dms or tdms.

basically, tl:dr

some things your so off base, some your right on and some ur completely denying facts, but some just lack a severe amount of context on or plain out ignorance on and some your just completely right on, if I didn't reply I didn't feel the need to explain further, the point is that u need a much bigger discussion about this if u want anything to actually change, like leo faria does when he comes on and explains formats or rulings etc, it would be nice to have someone like him for specifically gc and explaining why everything works like it does and whatnot. i hope anyone who reads learns something from it

#13
deadpark
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thanks for the effort and for the sources :)

#16
Cheasle2
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I'm talking about video games not physical sports

#23
grisx23
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What do you think controls motor functions and how do you think motor functions gets transcribed in your brain and it reacts to it?

#63
Bonkbonk201
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I advise you to find evidence supporting your claims. I looked into this, and it is quite challenging because there isn't much evidence available, and to my knowledge, studies on this topic haven’t been created. Please avoid making statements like, "biologically, there is 0 difference in skill between men and women," without clarification on whether you're referring to physical sports or video games. It's unclear, and it represents a misinterpretation of my argument. I was discussing both physical sports and video games, as evidenced by both of my sources, This indicates that you may not have a thorough response to my actual points. Regardless of whether we are discussing video games or physical sports, your statement is still factually incorrect.

It’s disappointing because, as someone who claims to care about the significant issue of game changers being misinterpreted, you should be more open to considering the intricate and challenging details surrounding this topic.

What's especially disappointing in your response is that it suggests you didn’t even examine the sources. If you had, you would have recognized that one of them pertained to video games, not just physical sports.

#65
Harapan845
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I would suggest since we are on a website tat talks about esports tat it would be esports tey were talking about

#18
Sk00d
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I understand your points, still i disagree tho

I think GC should be a women's league but it is what it is, I dont make the rules

#26
kingop3n
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it was made initially like that. but it made sense to include others also as they suffer from societal norms

#19
Paraplant
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trans players, like women, are also looking for a space where they can compete free of judgement and bullying

isn’t really working out for them

#20
Cheasle2
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yeah, and it's sad.

#35
Paraplant
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but wouldn’t you think that they would get less hate if they played in the main circuit?
it’s gonna be the same transphobes shitting on them but at least noone would complain about gc

#89
Cheasle2
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you think that, but I guarantee they will be getting just as much hate, maybe more with the spotlight.

I can only imagine a trans player getting signed by a org with lots of fans, and the comments that would be made if they don't perform...

#38
stupidstupid
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I don't really understand that point tbh, it's insinuating that riot runs a separate event which is not free of judgement and bullying and knowingly does so lmao.

#25
PooFaceCe
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Clearly you have a strong opinion on it and your first statement was objectively false, there 100% is.

#27
kingop3n
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if you cant read just say that

#28
PooFaceCe
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Men have faster reaction times, more accurate accurate reflexes, more fast twitch muscle fibers, they're better under stress, better spatial awareness and visuospatial skills, debatably better eyesight, more aggressive risk taking, and a higher desire for competitivity.

I got sources for all of them... you?

#29
kingop3n
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and yet all these differences get nullified bcos women have other "physical" differences that men dont. and mentally. the societal factors equate to way more :)

#33
PooFaceCe
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Okay, give me examples of womens biological advantages that are significant enough to, "nullify" the main 5 aspects that would make you good in competitive gaming lol.

Let alone the fact that all of this shit compounds onto each other.

#43
PooFaceCe
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Right, I didn't think so... I'd hate to be so confident in being wrong.

#61
kingop3n
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LOL i didnt reply for 10 mins and u think i left.

#64
PooFaceCe
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Still no answer, I thought so.

#68
kingop3n
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im watching the game bcos i actually care ab the players :) thats why im not replying

#92
PooFaceCe
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Been 6 days, I don't think the game is still going on tbh

#30
grisx23
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No can do boss
I am getting paid to virtue signal only

#32
Spectral_
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Check moomoomeadows comment for some studies about reaction time between men and women
I believe there is a difference between men and women (see athletic sports) but the difference is negligible in esports

#58
YourLocalSkibidiSigma
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I mean how can you deny PooFaceCes statements? I could watch a single GC match compared to VCT and all of those would be really clear.

Comparing VCT to GC you can clearly see that VCT players have faster reaction times, more accurate accurate reflexes, more fast twitch muscle fibers, they're better under stress, better spatial awareness and visuospatial skills, debatably better eyesight, more aggressive risk taking, and a higher desire for competitivity.

The visual test just blantantly confirms that its true. Ive never seen a GC player be close to players like Aspas, Jinggg, Demon1 etc

#34
Harapan845
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could you link them instead of just saying it?

#36
PooFaceCe
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Once a rebuttal is presented I'll link the ones that are relevant to the argument yeah, but I'm not gonna source everything off the jump. I'm in Biomed and I've been learning this shit for 3 years, I'm pretty sure in what I'm preaching.

#37
Harapan845
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wy would i just believe you?

#39
PooFaceCe
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Well if you can't form a rebuttal and I've made like 7 points, then I think you don't even believe yourself.

#40
Harapan845
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my rebuttal is that you are telling people tings tat tey might not want to ere and expect to not ave to prove it

#42
PooFaceCe
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That's not a rebuttal, that's your opinion.

If someone is gonna come into an argument with the mindset of "I don't wanna hear his side be right", then they're wrong by default even if they were right. So I don't care about proving anything to those people.

#44
Harapan845
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i just want you to sow me te proof I just wanna see it man

#66
Bonkbonk201
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I appreciate you for trying brother, however above I think it might be better to focus less on the comments "men are better at x y z and instead focus on the fundamental fact that women and men are just different, it's much less confrontational and it might work better in the future, just some advice and I appreciate the comments.

#67
kapteN
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There IS a biological difference, but it's compounded by the social factors for sure.

If there are even VERY SMALL difference on average scores on whatever attribute, you will tend to see those differences magnified at the tail ends if the ability is statistically a normal distribution

Taking a gender-neutral example: If Gender A has an average score of 110 on something, and Gender B has an average score of 107 on something, then it is very likely that the top percentiles of this particular trait will be overwhelmingly represented by Gender A.

Biologically, in most real normally distributed traits, men tend to have a "flatter bell curve", meaning there is more variance in whatever trait it is, and women tend to be statistically more clustered towards the mean. This means that men are typically over-represented in both extreme tails (far below average as well as far above average). See "variability hypothesis" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis

And on top of that, you need to find people who are also highly motivated and disciplined (conscientiousness, one of the biggest differences between men and women in terms of personality traits) AND are interested in things, not people (primarily men, one of the biggest differences between men and women in terms of personality traits), AND are in the top percentiles of the traits associated with being good at eSports (e.g. visual-spatial awareness, reaction time, problem solving, hand-eye coordination, micro-motoric skills and more). To find people who are high on most or all of them continues to lower the prevalence of women the more circles you add to the "venn-diagram" of necessary traits.

Let me caveat very clearly: I am not saying that women cannot be good at esports, and I'm not saying that it is impossible for women to be better than men
It is the classic "chess problem". The odds of finding women that are high in all traits necessary to be a top esports player are simply significantly lower than for men.

#74
Anti-fakenews
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Trust me no one is going to counter or argue against this; cus its backed by fundamental statistics. You are only going to get downvoted cus other side cant disapprove it and don't like your opinion or worse, mods will delete your comment.

#80
blandarius
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His argument "based on fundamental statistics" also doesn't work by the way,
because you put a way stronger venn-diagram filter on the trans-player simply because they also have to be trans. 40% women player base, 60% men player base, MAYBE 4% trans player base and then you put all the other filters on it.

#79
blandarius
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This is kinda iffy.
A. While you do have a source for the variability hypothesis (which honestly seems relatively good) you do not have any sources for any of the other claims.
B. Your entire argument is based on trans people having a strictly normal "male" brain, which they simply do not.
This means you have a nice argument, sadly your argument is built on a false premise.

I'm too tired to go through google scholar again and if you can use a wikipedia article, so can I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence#:~:text=The%20available%20research%20indicates%20that,in%20non%2Ddimorphic%20brain%20areas.

#88
kapteN
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A. (note, none of these were handpicked, literally the first credible source to come up when entering the term)
Spatial intelligence, specifically linked to (biological) brain structure
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081217124430.htm#:~:text=Men%20consistently%20outperform%20women%20on,controls%20this%20type%20of%20skill.

People vs. things interests - consistent across cultures, suggesting biological causation
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229444851_Gender_Differences_in_Personality_and_Interests_When_Where_and_Why#:~:text=Men%20and%20women%20tend%20to,pursuits%20(Lippa%2C%202010)%20.

Variability by gender on normal distributions (which affects most of the traits as well as intelligence), relinking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis

Reaction time (this is related to sprinters/athletes, but has been replicated in other fields, can link the studies easily if you like)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3198384/#:~:text=The%20mean%20fastest%20reaction%20time,ms%20and%20121%20ms%2C%20respectively.

Visuo-motoric tracking (hand-eye coordination)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-68069-0

Do I need to go on?

B. I never made any claims around trans people as I don't consider it part of my field of expertise (Master's degree in Psychology). Back when I was doing my degree (2012-2017) there was very little focus on this topic apart from the clinical psychology field on gender dysphoria, so I will refrain from talking about it or making any claims. I only reacted to the first statement of "there is 0 biological difference in skill between men and women" which is factually false.

#70
Anti-fakenews
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I would really be curious if mods delete this post too.
I made a post with an opposing view as the first comment yesterday. Was totally respectful; even when there were people cursing out to me, as a person.
Its just speech censorship if it doesn't happen at this point.

#71
Anti-fakenews
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and there were genuinely some actual good comments who cited some interesting research contradicting my point, but alas, to no avail.

#72
Harapan845
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tis one asnt devolved like yours probably did

#75
Anti-fakenews
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Not really u know. There are far worse threads still open to comment.
I'm sure I'll get banned by tomorrow just for questioning mods integrity.

#76
Harapan845
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i mean canada man did by doing basically the opposite of you are doing but questioning the mods integrity so prob yea

#90
Cheasle2
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I hope not. The point of this post wasn't to start any arguments, but to give people a different perspective.

#84
911dot
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Not reading allat.

#86
kskm
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you took the social factor from an earlier post of mine which got deleted lol.. nice work

#93
dual000
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Just search in scopus with these keywords
"cognitive" AND "gender" AND "adult"

Stop yapping and argue with data

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