Neon, Fortnite Aim Assist, and History

#1

Yuh_aye

TLDR : Neon run-n-gun is just like fortnite aim-assist / L2 spam

Now's a great time to talk about Neon and why she's OP, terrible for the game, and a crutch for bad players to play above their level.

In many ways it mirrors Fortnite's controller aim assist, before it was eventually nerfed.

It encourages a braindead playstyle

In fortnite every controller player would just instantly jump in your box (most of the time without even tagging you prior) with no fear of losing that aim duel because they knew they had mini-aimbot and would 200-0 you in a second. In valorant, it's non-stop run and gun, as well as being able to jump around in the open with next to no fear of dying because they know there is no hitscan tracking.

There is no way for anybody not abusing it to counter it

In fortnite, you get instabeamed by an inhuman shot (because player input wasn't what was tracking you), or they just jump in your box and the fight is already decided at that point. In valorant, as long as you are above diamond, there is nothing you can do to stop the run-n-gun/judge-in-your-face nonsense. Cypher is not a counter at all - the best cypher map (Sunset) is also a top neon map.

It lets terrible players play way above their level

It's obvious for fortnite, random ps4 shitters were owning to pros during competitive events that they were full tryharding in (Cash Cups, etc). In valorant it is just as true and obvious. For the vast majority of players, Neon is a crutch. I personally know a silver 1 who fried in a dia-asc avg custom by running it down with a spectre/judge every single round.
That doesnt mean that the top neon players (KangKang, Aspas, Jawgemo, Zekken, Sayf, etc) aren't good. The problem is when shitters who are not good play insane because they can abuse the broken agent. It was the same in fortnite. Unkown, Reet, Deyy, and Mero being insane was not why aim assist was broken, the problem is that the shitters were when they shouldn't have been.

The last point can give us a historical view of how/when Neon might eventually get nerfed. In fortnite, Aim assist divided the community. The Keyboard players swore (correctly) that it was OP. The controller players (who had a vested interest) tried to pretend it wasn't no matter how ridiculous it obviously was. But when did aim assist get nerfed? When the good controller players started calling it out. The good controller players started getting shit on and outplaced by braindead boxjumpers whom they knew they were better than. And that's how Neon will get nerfed, when the actually good duelists start calling out the crutches for what they are, even if it means they can't abuse it themselves.

#2

ohptic

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what does this mean in overwatch terms?

#17

trikecycle

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Phara is a problem in low ranks and on console because nobody can truly punish her due to the worse level of aim. Playing phara at a low level grants an unbalanced level of value in low ranks and allows these poor players to play way above their skill level, and it isn’t fun for the opponents to deal with either. This creates a brain dead game where one team is forced into playing double hitscan as nobody is talented enough in that rank to solo counter the phara, even if she is a bad player

#3

elament

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what does this mean for C9's legacy

#5

Yuh_aye

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Idk what this post has to do with it, but c9 could actually be a really good team next year if they keep making the right moves. Rossy is a great pick up

#43

samhatts

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C9 will see this post, and due to their off season policy of make a terrible team that only wins regular season games, they will pick up a braindead controller player. They will somehow find a way to drop xeppa and oxy at the same time. Classic Clown9

#4

bees

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L take. Neon doesn't need nerfs and fortnite is a terrible comparison. Just like with every duelist, you put yourself and the team in positions to counter her utility with your own. And Raze can do the same run and gun judge shit while flying over trips and having useful destructive utility.

Your anecdote of "silver player fries in dia/asc lobbies" is not only dubious but also the type of phenomenon that can happen with any ranked gimmicks like grim walls, aggro omen TPs, Yoru tech, etc.

#6

Yuh_aye

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I'm glad you mentioned raze

Here's a relevant 5 sentence post : https://www.vlr.gg/402114/rate-my-idea

If you think a silver 1 is gonna be able to fry in a high diamond lobby on sage, omen, and FUCKING YORU, you are delusional.

#8

diswaco

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did they not just say that the entire premise of a silver 1 frying high diamond lobbies was dubious? average vlr reading comprehension

#9

Yuh_aye

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The premise is not dubious, it actually happened. I was in the lobby when it happened. I've told the story in the past:

https://www.vlr.gg/401952/neon-is-broken

#10 for the story
#14 I posted the actual tracker for the game it happened (then edited so weirdos on vlr don't harass suzy)

#16

diswaco

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basic statistics - you can't extrapolate the results of one game to the population

#22

Yuh_aye

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Good thing it was an anecdote, not a statistical argument

#32

diswaco

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you're applying the outcome of that anecdote to all neon mains lol

#34

Yuh_aye

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No I made a statement about the nature of neon (It lets terrible players play way above their level), and used an anecdote to support that statement

Although some people interpreted it as only applying in low-mid elo because of the word 'terrible', but I meant it generally across the ranked spectrum.

#35

diswaco

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that's... what i just said? if you're going to make a point and back it up with a single anecdote, you're claiming that the results of that anecdote can be generalized to the domain in which your point applies, which in this case consists of all neon mains

#36

Yuh_aye

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The point (neon letting people play at a level they shouldn't be at) I was getting at with the anecdote can stand alone. The essence of all my other points (neon being broken) directly imply it. The anecdote was the quickest and easiest way to get the first point across. Was everything I said generally about neon being broken (in conjuction with the anecdote) not enough to support the first point? Do I need to add an analysis on temet's ranked history to further convince you? Just say the word and I will

continue thread →

#18

bees

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Neon doesn't recharge slide every 4-6 seconds. What are you on about
Accuracy while flying is a completely different thing than accuracy while grounded
It's supposed to be disadvantageous to stare at a choke while out in the open. A Phoenix flash would've sat him down too, but who plays Phoenix?
It's extremely hard even from the Raze/Neon's perspective to acquire a target that quickly, and doesn't happen consistently. It's like when you hit a flick onto an angle you're not looking at. It's partly "luck," in a sense, because you're flicking toward the general proximity of someone's head position. You could find plenty of clips of a raze/neon whiffing their first accurate shot and getting killed by phantom spray.

#21

Prasinos

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Raze need more aim than Neon to be honest.
And most Neons use judge bc they spam the two dash.

But something the OP doesnt metioned, that its make Neon braindead, its the removal of
the lost of speed when sidewalking.
2 dash? Fine, but the no punishement when u bunyhope with Neon in the wrong way, its what makes this char braindead.
In the past, people trained Neon move, like traning Raze fly, but now, a straight up gold can unlock her and do the most atrossius moves ever, bc do not have punish for wrong play, has 2 dashs, and infinite estamina.

#24

Yuh_aye

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neon bar is constantly recharging when not in use, unlike both jett and raze's movement util, that was the point of that comment, not the specifics of 4-6 seconds
it's not different at all except one is higher, its actually as good a comparison as any that ever existed, since the fundamental topic we're discussing is accuracy during movement (run-n-gun)
using a well timed piece of util (such as a flash) to win a duel != this bullshit, which is not a lucky moment (like jaws kill), but intended game design
its really not that hard especially with a phantom/spectre, let alone a judge, and its definitely not harder than it is to punish it

#30

bees

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The bar recharges, but not the slide. She only has two slides. Raze only has two satchels.
It's absolutely different because you only need to adjust horizontally for a neon slide and she can't slide past util. It's way harder to hit a flying raze and if you disagree then idk what to say. There's a reason Neon doesn't get picked on Bind.
Read my comment again. It is lucky in the sense that no human hits those shots consistently. Sayf flicked in his direction, but if you run that through a simulation, he does not hit that shot every time. You're cherry-picking insane flick clips from Neons. I could do the same with Jett/Reyna players swinging out of a smoke, hitting a flick, and escaping to safety.
If Neon is sliding on you with a judge, she's giving up range. Stop staring at a choke while she's running at you. Use util to separate her from her team. It's easier to deal with than Jett updraft dash into smoke, which buys time for her whole team to come help her.

#33

Yuh_aye

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The bar recharges, but not the slide. She only has two slides. Raze only has two satchels.

She can still jump around for most of the round in anticipation for opportunity for a slide. You're also comparing two different things, Neon's bar is the movement, the slide is an ability. Raze's movement is the satchels.

Wanna know why it makes such a big difference? Imagine you're on bind attack and wanna make a movement play to barrel stuff the player in U-haul with a judge - a pretty common play. With raze you'll probably have to invest both satchels (1 is gonna be too slow) to fly in and make that play. Nobody's there? Too bad, your opportunity to make a movement based play in the round is now over.

If you're on neon, you jump around (using ur bar) through short until you get to the entrance of U-haul. The extra beauty is that you don't even really need to invest a slide when you're there! It's already hard to hit you, so it's an acceptable risk to not even invest one until you're inside and see somebody! You can even jumpspot the inside of it -while at full speed - to make sure someone is there before you use your slide!

But let's say you don't do all that (which isn't even that hard or tedious), and just blind invest the slide anyways. Nobody's there? No worries! You have a bar that's recharging and still another slide! You'll have plenty of other opportunities to put it to use

It's absolutely different because you only need to adjust horizontally for a neon slide and she can't slide past util. It's way harder to hit a flying raze and if you disagree then idk what to say. There's a reason Neon doesn't get picked on Bind.

She can definitely slide past util. It's definitely harder to hit a flying raze, but it's not like its some different world to hitting a temet wannabe who's just shaking his mouse as hard as possible. Neon doesn't get picked on bind because that's literally by far the best raze map in the game, and there's good reason you can only afford to have 1 duelist in a bind comp at a high level.

but if you run that through a simulation, he does not hit that shot every time. You're cherry-picking insane flick clips from Neons. I could do the same with Jett/Reyna players swinging out of a smoke, hitting a flick, and escaping to safety.

The problem is that, unlike jawgemo's mid-air shot, him hitting that shot is intended game design. It's not about him hitting a nice flick/shot. Yes, reyna's can swing out a smoke and hit a nice flick. Is that the same as jumping across mid in less than a second and hit a nice flick thats accurate while moving at full speed? I mean they're really just both nice shots at the end of the day right?

If Neon is sliding on you with a judge, she's giving up range. Stop staring at a choke while she's running at you. Use util to separate her from her team. It's easier to deal with than Jett updraft dash into smoke, which buys time for her whole team to come help her.

Good thing I know exactly where the neon is all times, and exactly what weapon she has every round, and am always in a spot to use my util to separate her from her team. It's really that easy.

#7

DuD5K1S

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Congrats! or, sorry to hear that?

#10

justo

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read the first line, all im hearing is whining. just shoot the neon lol

#12

Yuh_aye

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drop your tracker

#68

bullz1t0

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drop yours

#69

Yuh_aye

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https://tracker.gg/valorant/profile/riot/nytrizu%23court/overview

Proof : https://www.vlr.gg/391577/tracker-4-tracker #35

#11

catNmouse

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I’ll give u an A+ on this, great thesis statement man

#13

Yuh_aye

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ty

#14

sad_gambit_fan

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bro aint no way u comparing neon movement to legal aimbot

its very clear epic games have VERY DIFFERENT philosophies on what competitive gaming / esports is ,
they have the "all should have equal chance regardless of skill" mentality

also epic games notoriously known for not caring about what pros want and actively making the game random to give worse players a chance

#25

Yuh_aye

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fortnite is dogshit as an esport for many reasons, and I agree with basically everything you said.

But there is a huge parallel between the aim-assist debacle in fortnite and what Neon is today

#29

sad_gambit_fan

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u hyperfocusing on neon movement in low elo when so many other agents are also strong in low elo

what parallels , we have had broken agents like release astra / release chamber / viper harbor pre nerfs and even recently broken ISO which completely changed the way game was played

but ur problem is with the neon otps in low elo?
just seems like ur used to the classic tac fps so when u see a new running mechanics u instantly resist it

#31

Yuh_aye

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when did i saw it was a problem just in low elo? The problem is that people can play at a level they clearly are not at because of the broken and braindead mechanics, I only used the silver 1 in high diamond as an anecdote, its just as valid in high elo.

What parallels? Good thing the post explains exactly that:

It encourages a braindead playstyle
There is no way for anybody not abusing it to counter it
It lets terrible players play way above their level

And what does pre-nerf chamber viper iso or whatever have to do with my points about neon?

#15

tserc

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Bro hates Neon that much

The games u lost are living rent free in ur head then. That's not a great mentality yuh-aye. I expected better from you.

I'm not calling u out or anything, it's just that Neon CAN be countered, not every Neon I was up against dropped 20+ kills

#19

trikecycle

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The only thing that needs a hit is how fast you run sideways during the ult cause that’s kind of absurd but honestly I’m happy with neon as the best dive duelist after years of raze and jett

#23

Prasinos

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Its the fast sidewalk in generall, Riot removed the speed lost when u turn with Neon.
2 dash is fine, accuracy sliding i can accept (Its hard).
But no punishment for wrong movement its unacceptable

Even Raze lose speed if she flies wrong, why Neon doesnt?

#26

tipthetim

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What do you mean by wrong movement for neon?

#27

Prasinos

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You know when u buny hope, you need to learn how to properly turn, bc if you do not do the right movement, you lose speed, and this is a wrong movement.

Wrong move lose speed, but pressing D after spamming A, makes you lose ALL the speed.
But isnt like this for Neon anymore, she can bunyhope or crouch hope or whatever shit she wants, she will not lose speed like in the past.

#28

tipthetim

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I don't think this is completely true, I have played neon and you have to be very conscious of how you move in the air. I do agree that grounded straifing is a little to strong right now.

#20

novato1

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Dude, using Neon doesn't mean you'll automatically shoot the enemy in the head... there's a whole mechanic, I don't think it was a good comparison, but I get what you mean. Neon breaks the FPS pattern because Valorant is a slow game in terms of movement, so when Neon starts sliding with an ult on someone, the game turns into Quake.

#39

Yuh_aye

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Dude, using Neon doesn't mean you'll automatically shoot the enemy in the head

Its not like I said playing Neon was an auto-win or that it's impossible to kill her

so when Neon starts sliding with an ult on someone, the game turns into Quake

I don't have as big as a problem with the ult as other people do, ults are supposed to be strong.

The problem is that val guns aren't like quake, so you can't effectively punish/counter neon normally even without the ult (on top of run-n-gun being stupid asf + letting bad players be good)

#37

babysasuke

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Not reading allat, more Fnatic slander please

#38

Yuh_aye

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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slander

Slander implies what I said was false or a misrepresentation. The only thing I ever got wrong in those 2 posts was a minor point about Cauanzin being a rookie. People have also stopped trying to contest it, because basically every avenue of cope was covered.

So that topic is over, it's much more important to set the record straight on Neon, which will be looked back like people look back on FN aim assist - bullshit that should've ended earlier than it did.

#40

smthlikeyou11

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at this point idk if this is an another neon bait post or do u just genuinely hate neon
how r u so committed into convincing ppl neon needs a nerf u dont even give up with a 500 second cooldown lmfao
theres so many things wrong with ur argument

u are comparing a first person tac fps to a third person battle royale
i know u did not just compare an agent in a game to literal aim assist and crossplay
u used the comparsion of random shitting a pros because of controller aim assist, so if i take some random diamonds and ascendants and have them run neon into pros ur saying that pros wont stand a chance?
bro saw one silver 1 using judge and spectre in customs against plats and diamonds and decided yea lets nerf neon, common confirmation bias u search and cherry pick information that agrees with ur hypothesis
neon did NOT divide the val community
theres a reason why pros dont call it out or complain about it, it just seems like people dont know how to play against neon

now onto ur points- It encourages a braindead playstyle
??? if by braindead u mean but just jumping around and sliding on people (which is subjective) i guarantee u i could say the same for every agent in valorant. jumping around in the open with no fear of dying- this is simply just not true if they can use util (sliding and jumping) you can too

-no way to counter it
there is literally so many ways to counter it, let me just take a few seconds and list some off the top of my mind not including ultimates
breach stun
all blinds
prefiring
double peek
vyse wall
cypher trips
kj turret
simply bait the slide out then peek lol
remember that nothing is stopping YOU from also buying a judge
-lets terrible players play WAY above their skill level
.......what? literally the same can be said for literally every agent?

#41

Yuh_aye

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its genuine
the problem with neon is very stylistically similar to the problem with aim-assist, being different game genres doesn't change that
they're very comparable, for all three reasons listed in the post
not against pros obviously, and diamonds vs radiants is overstating it, but there's plenty of players of all ranks getting to places they shouldn't because of neon. all of E6A2-E8A3 Temet is hardstuck imm3/ complete bottom of the barrel radiant (literally #499) Last few days of E8A3 neon gets buffed. The next act he ends #89. Top 100 radiant is notoriously different from bottom radiant, similar to the difference between imm1 and 3 (which is pretty big).
Yeah thats totally the only reason its not like its the lived experience of most of the val community dealing with neon bullshit almost nonstop. btw if you watched curry today he was calling neon broken for like 2 hours straight
not as much as FN aim assist, but there's definitely a divide
Curry was literally talking about it non-stop today
go and watch the M80 match from today (especially the first two), and tell me how I'm supposed to counter neon, when half the shit you listed didn't stop one of the best teams in the world from getting absolutely obliterated by one. And take special note of Dante's neon performances vs his iso and jett.
No it can't be said of every agent are you forreal? Has anybody ever been called a KAYO crutch?

#42

IZAYA_ORIHARA

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calm down bro
keep patience.

If people keeps playing her on all maps at some point riot gonna nerf her again so other duelists get picked.

riot nerfed jett, chamber, iso cause they became meta people kept insta locking them. Same will happen to neon if neon gets ultra popular like pre nerfed jett or buffed broken iso.

Then we will get phoenix buff then people complain then again nerf. Its a cycle and tactic.

#44

justforthis

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#

That's why you should never play a game for fun. If you say players play above their deserved level, you don't need to talk specifically about neon. There are so many players that play on higher levels than what they are deserving examples of boosted players, so instead of complaining about what and what, just play the game and improve. Again, a competitive game should not be played for fun; it's the game where you lose and rise, have a dream to become a pro player, or just leave the game, period.

#47

LouBag

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people really hate change

neon changes the way the game is played and, in my opinion, that's a good thing.

#48

Yuh_aye

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an earthquake destroys your home and you're now homeless

'man people just don't like change'

NO SHIT IF ITS A CHANGE FOR THE WORSE. NOBODY WAS COMPLAINING WHEN STINGER OR CHAMBER GOT NERFED BECAUSE THAT WAS CHANGE FOR THE BETTER

#49

LouBag

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just because you can't stand still and stare at a corner with good crosshair placement against a neon doesn't mean the agent is bad.

#50

jixk

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it is almost like you have to play differently against different agents and there abilites idk tho might be hard to think
on a real note neon is the easiest agent to counter play with your teammate and force her to over extend and on defense she is free idk why people struggle against her ig the slide but is so easy to bait out

#51

jixk

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double posted cause lag :D

#54

Anguibok

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My belief the that up her soloQ power was horrible either she where destroying soloQ but would have no use on proplay, or she would destroy both.

Riot need to learn how to make target up, an up that target only soloQ, only lowlvl, or only proplay, if they dont we will end with pick only on soloQ and pick only on proplay and vice versa.

S5 might have Neon, Chamber, Iso, Clove, Reyna, Phoenix, Omen only on soloQ a on every map, while en proplay it will be Jett, Raze, Breach, Kayo Viper, Astra
(Only reveal might be share on the 2 gamepool)