Neon, Fortnite Aim Assist, and History

TLDR : Neon run-n-gun is just like fortnite aim-assist / L2 spam

Now's a great time to talk about Neon and why she's OP, terrible for the game, and a crutch for bad players to play above their level.

In many ways it mirrors Fortnite's controller aim assist, before it was eventually nerfed.

1. It encourages a braindead playstyle

In fortnite every controller player would just instantly jump in your box (most of the time without even tagging you prior) with no fear of losing that aim duel because they knew they had mini-aimbot and would 200-0 you in a second. In valorant, it's non-stop run and gun, as well as being able to jump around in the open with next to no fear of dying because they know there is no hitscan tracking.

2. There is no way for anybody not abusing it to counter it

In fortnite, you get instabeamed by an inhuman shot (because player input wasn't what was tracking you), or they just jump in your box and the fight is already decided at that point. In valorant, as long as you are above diamond, there is nothing you can do to stop the run-n-gun/judge-in-your-face nonsense. Cypher is not a counter at all - the best cypher map (Sunset) is also a top neon map.

3. It lets terrible players play way above their level

It's obvious for fortnite, random ps4 shitters were owning to pros during competitive events that they were full tryharding in (Cash Cups, etc). In valorant it is just as true and obvious. For the vast majority of players, Neon is a crutch. I personally know a silver 1 who fried in a dia-asc avg custom by running it down with a spectre/judge every single round.
That doesnt mean that the top neon players (KangKang, Aspas, Jawgemo, Zekken, Sayf, etc) aren't good. The problem is when shitters who are not good play insane because they can abuse the broken agent. It was the same in fortnite. Unkown, Reet, Deyy, and Mero being insane was not why aim assist was broken, the problem is that the shitters were when they shouldn't have been.

The last point can give us a historical view of how/when Neon might eventually get nerfed. In fortnite, Aim assist divided the community. The Keyboard players swore (correctly) that it was OP. The controller players (who had a vested interest) tried to pretend it wasn't no matter how ridiculous it obviously was. But when did aim assist get nerfed? When the good controller players started calling it out. The good controller players started getting shit on and outplaced by braindead boxjumpers whom they knew they were better than. And that's how Neon will get nerfed, when the actually good duelists start calling out the crutches for what they are, even if it means they can't abuse it themselves.

what does this mean in overwatch terms?

what does this mean for C9's legacy

L take. Neon doesn't need nerfs and fortnite is a terrible comparison. Just like with every duelist, you put yourself and the team in positions to counter her utility with your own. And Raze can do the same run and gun judge shit while flying over trips and having useful destructive utility.

Your anecdote of "silver player fries in dia/asc lobbies" is not only dubious but also the type of phenomenon that can happen with any ranked gimmicks like grim walls, aggro omen TPs, Yoru tech, etc.

elament [#3]

what does this mean for C9's legacy

Idk what this post has to do with it, but c9 could actually be a really good team next year if they keep making the right moves. Rossy is a great pick up

bees [#4]

L take. Neon doesn't need nerfs and fortnite is a terrible comparison. Just like with every duelist, you put yourself and the team in positions to counter her utility with your own. And Raze can do the same run and gun judge shit while flying over trips and having useful destructive utility.

Your anecdote of "silver player fries in dia/asc lobbies" is not only dubious but also the type of phenomenon that can happen with any ranked gimmicks like grim walls, aggro omen TPs, Yoru tech, etc.

I'm glad you mentioned raze

Here's a relevant 5 sentence post : https://www.vlr.gg/402114/rate-my-idea

If you think a silver 1 is gonna be able to fry in a high diamond lobby on sage, omen, and FUCKING YORU, you are delusional.

Congrats! or, sorry to hear that?

Yuh_aye [#6]

I'm glad you mentioned raze

Here's a relevant 5 sentence post : https://www.vlr.gg/402114/rate-my-idea

If you think a silver 1 is gonna be able to fry in a high diamond lobby on sage, omen, and FUCKING YORU, you are delusional.

did they not just say that the entire premise of a silver 1 frying high diamond lobbies was dubious? average vlr reading comprehension

diswaco [#8]

did they not just say that the entire premise of a silver 1 frying high diamond lobbies was dubious? average vlr reading comprehension

The premise is not dubious, it actually happened. I was in the lobby when it happened. I've told the story in the past:

https://www.vlr.gg/401952/neon-is-broken

#10 for the story
#14 I posted the actual tracker for the game it happened (then edited so weirdos on vlr don't harass suzy)

read the first line, all im hearing is whining. just shoot the neon lol

I’ll give u an A+ on this, great thesis statement man

justo [#10]

read the first line, all im hearing is whining. just shoot the neon lol

drop your tracker

catNmouse [#11]

I’ll give u an A+ on this, great thesis statement man

ty

bro aint no way u comparing neon movement to legal aimbot

its very clear epic games have VERY DIFFERENT philosophies on what competitive gaming / esports is ,
they have the "all should have equal chance regardless of skill" mentality

also epic games notoriously known for not caring about what pros want and actively making the game random to give worse players a chance

Bro hates Neon that much

The games u lost are living rent free in ur head then. That's not a great mentality yuh-aye. I expected better from you.

I'm not calling u out or anything, it's just that Neon CAN be countered, not every Neon I was up against dropped 20+ kills

Yuh_aye [#9]

The premise is not dubious, it actually happened. I was in the lobby when it happened. I've told the story in the past:

https://www.vlr.gg/401952/neon-is-broken

#10 for the story
#14 I posted the actual tracker for the game it happened (then edited so weirdos on vlr don't harass suzy)

basic statistics - you can't extrapolate the results of one game to the population

ohptic [#2]

what does this mean in overwatch terms?

Phara is a problem in low ranks and on console because nobody can truly punish her due to the worse level of aim. Playing phara at a low level grants an unbalanced level of value in low ranks and allows these poor players to play way above their skill level, and it isn’t fun for the opponents to deal with either. This creates a brain dead game where one team is forced into playing double hitscan as nobody is talented enough in that rank to solo counter the phara, even if she is a bad player

Yuh_aye [#6]

I'm glad you mentioned raze

Here's a relevant 5 sentence post : https://www.vlr.gg/402114/rate-my-idea

If you think a silver 1 is gonna be able to fry in a high diamond lobby on sage, omen, and FUCKING YORU, you are delusional.

• Neon doesn't recharge slide every 4-6 seconds. What are you on about
• Accuracy while flying is a completely different thing than accuracy while grounded
• It's supposed to be disadvantageous to stare at a choke while out in the open. A Phoenix flash would've sat him down too, but who plays Phoenix?
• It's extremely hard even from the Raze/Neon's perspective to acquire a target that quickly, and doesn't happen consistently. It's like when you hit a flick onto an angle you're not looking at. It's partly "luck," in a sense, because you're flicking toward the general proximity of someone's head position. You could find plenty of clips of a raze/neon whiffing their first accurate shot and getting killed by phantom spray.

The only thing that needs a hit is how fast you run sideways during the ult cause that’s kind of absurd but honestly I’m happy with neon as the best dive duelist after years of raze and jett

Dude, using Neon doesn't mean you'll automatically shoot the enemy in the head... there's a whole mechanic, I don't think it was a good comparison, but I get what you mean. Neon breaks the FPS pattern because Valorant is a slow game in terms of movement, so when Neon starts sliding with an ult on someone, the game turns into Quake.

bees [#18]

• Neon doesn't recharge slide every 4-6 seconds. What are you on about
• Accuracy while flying is a completely different thing than accuracy while grounded
• It's supposed to be disadvantageous to stare at a choke while out in the open. A Phoenix flash would've sat him down too, but who plays Phoenix?
• It's extremely hard even from the Raze/Neon's perspective to acquire a target that quickly, and doesn't happen consistently. It's like when you hit a flick onto an angle you're not looking at. It's partly "luck," in a sense, because you're flicking toward the general proximity of someone's head position. You could find plenty of clips of a raze/neon whiffing their first accurate shot and getting killed by phantom spray.

Raze need more aim than Neon to be honest.
And most Neons use judge bc they spam the two dash.

But something the OP doesnt metioned, that its make Neon braindead, its the removal of
the lost of speed when sidewalking.
2 dash? Fine, but the no punishement when u bunyhope with Neon in the wrong way, its what makes this char braindead.
In the past, people trained Neon move, like traning Raze fly, but now, a straight up gold can unlock her and do the most atrossius moves ever, bc do not have punish for wrong play, has 2 dashs, and infinite estamina.

diswaco [#16]

basic statistics - you can't extrapolate the results of one game to the population

Good thing it was an anecdote, not a statistical argument

trikecycle [#19]

The only thing that needs a hit is how fast you run sideways during the ult cause that’s kind of absurd but honestly I’m happy with neon as the best dive duelist after years of raze and jett

Its the fast sidewalk in generall, Riot removed the speed lost when u turn with Neon.
2 dash is fine, accuracy sliding i can accept (Its hard).
But no punishment for wrong movement its unacceptable

Even Raze lose speed if she flies wrong, why Neon doesnt?

bees [#18]

• Neon doesn't recharge slide every 4-6 seconds. What are you on about
• Accuracy while flying is a completely different thing than accuracy while grounded
• It's supposed to be disadvantageous to stare at a choke while out in the open. A Phoenix flash would've sat him down too, but who plays Phoenix?
• It's extremely hard even from the Raze/Neon's perspective to acquire a target that quickly, and doesn't happen consistently. It's like when you hit a flick onto an angle you're not looking at. It's partly "luck," in a sense, because you're flicking toward the general proximity of someone's head position. You could find plenty of clips of a raze/neon whiffing their first accurate shot and getting killed by phantom spray.

• neon bar is constantly recharging when not in use, unlike both jett and raze's movement util, that was the point of that comment, not the specifics of 4-6 seconds

• it's not different at all except one is higher, its actually as good a comparison as any that ever existed, since the fundamental topic we're discussing is accuracy during movement (run-n-gun)

• using a well timed piece of util (such as a flash) to win a duel != this bullshit, which is not a lucky moment (like jaws kill), but intended game design

• its really not that hard especially with a phantom/spectre, let alone a judge, and its definitely not harder than it is to punish it

sad_gambit_fan [#14]

bro aint no way u comparing neon movement to legal aimbot

its very clear epic games have VERY DIFFERENT philosophies on what competitive gaming / esports is ,
they have the "all should have equal chance regardless of skill" mentality

also epic games notoriously known for not caring about what pros want and actively making the game random to give worse players a chance

fortnite is dogshit as an esport for many reasons, and I agree with basically everything you said.

But there is a huge parallel between the aim-assist debacle in fortnite and what Neon is today

Prasinos [#23]

Its the fast sidewalk in generall, Riot removed the speed lost when u turn with Neon.
2 dash is fine, accuracy sliding i can accept (Its hard).
But no punishment for wrong movement its unacceptable

Even Raze lose speed if she flies wrong, why Neon doesnt?

What do you mean by wrong movement for neon?

tipthetim [#26]

What do you mean by wrong movement for neon?

You know when u buny hope, you need to learn how to properly turn, bc if you do not do the right movement, you lose speed, and this is a wrong movement.

Wrong move lose speed, but pressing D after spamming A, makes you lose ALL the speed.
But isnt like this for Neon anymore, she can bunyhope or crouch hope or whatever shit she wants, she will not lose speed like in the past.

Prasinos [#27]

You know when u buny hope, you need to learn how to properly turn, bc if you do not do the right movement, you lose speed, and this is a wrong movement.

Wrong move lose speed, but pressing D after spamming A, makes you lose ALL the speed.
But isnt like this for Neon anymore, she can bunyhope or crouch hope or whatever shit she wants, she will not lose speed like in the past.

I don't think this is completely true, I have played neon and you have to be very conscious of how you move in the air. I do agree that grounded straifing is a little to strong right now.

Yuh_aye [#25]

fortnite is dogshit as an esport for many reasons, and I agree with basically everything you said.

But there is a huge parallel between the aim-assist debacle in fortnite and what Neon is today

u hyperfocusing on neon movement in low elo when so many other agents are also strong in low elo

what parallels , we have had broken agents like release astra / release chamber / viper harbor pre nerfs and even recently broken ISO which completely changed the way game was played

but ur problem is with the neon otps in low elo?
just seems like ur used to the classic tac fps so when u see a new running mechanics u instantly resist it

Yuh_aye [#24]

• neon bar is constantly recharging when not in use, unlike both jett and raze's movement util, that was the point of that comment, not the specifics of 4-6 seconds

• it's not different at all except one is higher, its actually as good a comparison as any that ever existed, since the fundamental topic we're discussing is accuracy during movement (run-n-gun)

• using a well timed piece of util (such as a flash) to win a duel != this bullshit, which is not a lucky moment (like jaws kill), but intended game design

• its really not that hard especially with a phantom/spectre, let alone a judge, and its definitely not harder than it is to punish it

• The bar recharges, but not the slide. She only has two slides. Raze only has two satchels.
• It's absolutely different because you only need to adjust horizontally for a neon slide and she can't slide past util. It's way harder to hit a flying raze and if you disagree then idk what to say. There's a reason Neon doesn't get picked on Bind.
• Read my comment again. It is lucky in the sense that no human hits those shots consistently. Sayf flicked in his direction, but if you run that through a simulation, he does not hit that shot every time. You're cherry-picking insane flick clips from Neons. I could do the same with Jett/Reyna players swinging out of a smoke, hitting a flick, and escaping to safety.
• If Neon is sliding on you with a judge, she's giving up range. Stop staring at a choke while she's running at you. Use util to separate her from her team. It's easier to deal with than Jett updraft dash into smoke, which buys time for her whole team to come help her.

sad_gambit_fan [#29]

u hyperfocusing on neon movement in low elo when so many other agents are also strong in low elo

what parallels , we have had broken agents like release astra / release chamber / viper harbor pre nerfs and even recently broken ISO which completely changed the way game was played

but ur problem is with the neon otps in low elo?
just seems like ur used to the classic tac fps so when u see a new running mechanics u instantly resist it

when did i saw it was a problem just in low elo? The problem is that people can play at a level they clearly are not at because of the broken and braindead mechanics, I only used the silver 1 in high diamond as an anecdote, its just as valid in high elo.

What parallels? Good thing the post explains exactly that:

1. It encourages a braindead playstyle
2. There is no way for anybody not abusing it to counter it
3. It lets terrible players play way above their level

And what does pre-nerf chamber viper iso or whatever have to do with my points about neon?

Yuh_aye [#22]

Good thing it was an anecdote, not a statistical argument

you're applying the outcome of that anecdote to all neon mains lol

bees [#30]

• The bar recharges, but not the slide. She only has two slides. Raze only has two satchels.
• It's absolutely different because you only need to adjust horizontally for a neon slide and she can't slide past util. It's way harder to hit a flying raze and if you disagree then idk what to say. There's a reason Neon doesn't get picked on Bind.
• Read my comment again. It is lucky in the sense that no human hits those shots consistently. Sayf flicked in his direction, but if you run that through a simulation, he does not hit that shot every time. You're cherry-picking insane flick clips from Neons. I could do the same with Jett/Reyna players swinging out of a smoke, hitting a flick, and escaping to safety.
• If Neon is sliding on you with a judge, she's giving up range. Stop staring at a choke while she's running at you. Use util to separate her from her team. It's easier to deal with than Jett updraft dash into smoke, which buys time for her whole team to come help her.

The bar recharges, but not the slide. She only has two slides. Raze only has two satchels.

She can still jump around for most of the round in anticipation for opportunity for a slide. You're also comparing two different things, Neon's bar is the movement, the slide is an ability. Raze's movement is the satchels.

Wanna know why it makes such a big difference? Imagine you're on bind attack and wanna make a movement play to barrel stuff the player in U-haul with a judge - a pretty common play. With raze you'll probably have to invest both satchels (1 is gonna be too slow) to fly in and make that play. Nobody's there? Too bad, your opportunity to make a movement based play in the round is now over.

If you're on neon, you jump around (using ur bar) through short until you get to the entrance of U-haul. The extra beauty is that you don't even really need to invest a slide when you're there! It's already hard to hit you, so it's an acceptable risk to not even invest one until you're inside and see somebody! You can even jumpspot the inside of it -while at full speed - to make sure someone is there before you use your slide!

But let's say you don't do all that (which isn't even that hard or tedious), and just blind invest the slide anyways. Nobody's there? No worries! You have a bar that's recharging and still another slide! You'll have plenty of other opportunities to put it to use

It's absolutely different because you only need to adjust horizontally for a neon slide and she can't slide past util. It's way harder to hit a flying raze and if you disagree then idk what to say. There's a reason Neon doesn't get picked on Bind.

She can definitely slide past util. It's definitely harder to hit a flying raze, but it's not like its some different world to hitting a temet wannabe who's just shaking his mouse as hard as possible. Neon doesn't get picked on bind because that's literally by far the best raze map in the game, and there's good reason you can only afford to have 1 duelist in a bind comp at a high level.

but if you run that through a simulation, he does not hit that shot every time. You're cherry-picking insane flick clips from Neons. I could do the same with Jett/Reyna players swinging out of a smoke, hitting a flick, and escaping to safety.

The problem is that, unlike jawgemo's mid-air shot, him hitting that shot is intended game design. It's not about him hitting a nice flick/shot. Yes, reyna's can swing out a smoke and hit a nice flick. Is that the same as jumping across mid in less than a second and hit a nice flick thats accurate while moving at full speed? I mean they're really just both nice shots at the end of the day right?

If Neon is sliding on you with a judge, she's giving up range. Stop staring at a choke while she's running at you. Use util to separate her from her team. It's easier to deal with than Jett updraft dash into smoke, which buys time for her whole team to come help her.

Good thing I know exactly where the neon is all times, and exactly what weapon she has every round, and am always in a spot to use my util to separate her from her team. It's really that easy.

diswaco [#32]

you're applying the outcome of that anecdote to all neon mains lol

No I made a statement about the nature of neon (It lets terrible players play way above their level), and used an anecdote to support that statement

Although some people interpreted it as only applying in low-mid elo because of the word 'terrible', but I meant it generally across the ranked spectrum.