Should franchising have relegation?

#1

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I feel like alot of the franchised orgs have betrayed the trust riot has given them.

If for example we increase the amount of teams ascended from 1 -> 2.
The bottom team in each league respectively could be placed into the ascension tournament, which would allow them to keep their place if they won.

This could actual provoke some action from the orgs that are lazily navigating franchising.
It could also add additional incentives right now for orgs to invest in t2, since there is a higher possibility of making it onto the global stage.

is this a good idea?
or should we have faith in the current model?

#2

ufc

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Perfect! this ensures competition standards are maintained

#3

alyve

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yeah i think the way riot is doing it with the 2 year promotion is a little wacko

#7

capital_d_colon

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I dont know how the 2-year promotion thing works.
but there could be problems if an ascended teams becomes one of the top teams in the world.
would they get relegated? some top tier players could be stuck playing t2 for a bit
is the idea that they will just get picked up by another org? judging by some of the current rosters, i would not have faith in those orgs.
would they play in a relegation tournament? - wouldnt they just walk over the t2 teams in that tournament?

#11

jackb2016

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I hope they change their minds and do a system similar to Dota where teams get relegated or play in promotion playoffs, that way we don’t have these uncompetitive teams/orgs staying in the league

#4

gamr

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Yes

#5

WACC

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I think it will happen regardless

People think all 30 franchise teams will survive until the end of their contracts but a lot of them will go bankrupt or fall out of favor with rito

#6

Chow1E

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By time there should be adjustment and change from rito.

#8

blazennn

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Common W

#9

Asuna_Yuuki

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Which orgs have betrayed riot’s trust?

#18

Schneefeuer

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RRQ

#21

zardinez

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RRQ, C9, to name a few. Orgs that are unable or unwilling to pay for players to ensure competitivity shouldn’t have no punishment.

#29

hekzy

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Heretics (they just got FA rejects), Turkish teams (so much better talent in ascension), RRQ, C9

#30

Mortadelo

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TH payed 250k in different buyouts, and no they’re not rejects all of them but maybe Boo and keloqz had other offers. They missed with the project, but someone has to, it’s not because they’re not trying, you can’t expect to have 10 FNC’s, there not enough talent for that. Also if they had signed a top tier 2 duelist and IGL you would be asking for Zeek and Boo on tier 1 for example

Turkish teams I don’t feel knowledgeable enough to talk, but for what I’ve heard and what it looks, you’re right

#36

TheGanhervall

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Well, that’s sure but also, they can’t afford this year a super team because is the unique org that has to invest to enter to the LEC, lec project, valorant project, offices in Berlin and increase people who work for them in the new positions

#41

Mortadelo

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I do not think it’s a money issue at all, they just didn’t build the roster as well as others did

#39

hekzy

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250k for that? i want a reputable source.

#40

Mortadelo

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It’s an approximate given by Lembo, Spanish leaker

Around 200k for Mixwell, and less than 100k for Avova (50k or sum). Don’t have the clip rn it’s a couple months old, but I’m sure as a FNC fan you know how G2 works, they don’t just give away players

Hoody and Nukkye both had high buyouts too

#42

hekzy

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200k for mixwell.......... bruh.

#43

Mortadelo

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Paying 200j for Mixwell is way better for TH than 50k for Avova, paying the clout not the player, but would still get the player so it doesn’t really matter.

Nukkye was around that money too, but that’s because he is the better player

#10

Warlordwibz

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I'd keep current model for now.

If teams relegated, org will 100% contract jail them to prevent players from moving back to franchise if they get offer so they can be promoted again.
Newly promoted team will most likely be relegated again, only lasting them 1 year in franchise, in which I don't mind the 2 year promotion plan RIOT doing.

#17

capital_d_colon

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What im proposing is the ascension tournament (the top teams in the region) includes the lowest performing franchise team.
whos to say the org will contract jail the roster (who will be on inflated franchise wages) when they cant beat other t2 teams to qualify for franchising?

contract jail is an almost impossible issue to resolve, there is alot of players in t2 right now for example that are in that position. Because regardless of how many spots there are teams will always try to secure the best roster for as long as possible.

We dont know what the relegation will look like for ascended teams (yet).
if its an instant relegation = contract jail for players.
relegation playoff (sorta like what im suggesting), if the ascended team is very good then it will actively prevent t2 teams from ascending.

ascended teams will always try to lock players down for long enough contracts. because maintaining their t1 status is the most important thing for them

#12

bonkashi

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if anything it'll be based on riot's rulings of orgs they no longer want to be partnered with, rather than team performance. it's much easier for a team to field a better roster than for the org itself to become better through management etc, so im guessing riot may terminate certain team's contracts if they continually show themselves to be lazy and poorly managed.

#13

Zeah

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agree and rrq should get relegated, thanks.

#14

Kinkz

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I think instead of automatic relegation of the team that places last, riot reviews every orgs progress over the years and how they are contributing to the scene. If an org is out of line in any aspect they receive a warning to fix their system if they continue to lack, they're terminated from franchising. Franchising is a long term vision of riot and i dont think they should take harsh decisions after just one event.

#15

Yessirskiiii

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Maybe the best tier 2 team plays the worst franchised team in a best of 5 in every region? Loser gets relegated winner gets franchised

#16

symbols07

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for example guard was in this league, they could've easily won ascension and qualify for partner league, but if they got bankrupt once getting into the league, it would be bad to give them a permanent slot and relegate the "worst performing team" even though they might be financiallyy a very stable org. but here if we take sentinels for example, they might be shit for the next 5 years competitively, but every year they'll still be able to field a competitive roster and not go bankrupt. an unreliable org like guard at max deserves 2 years, according to riot which is fair. also to any c9 critics, riot didnt want to include them in first place, if carlos didnt fuck up, g2 would've been there instead.

#19

capital_d_colon

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ok but what is there to say about unreliable orgs that are already in franchising? do we just re-franchise a new team in if the team goes bust?

#24

symbols07

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probably, but i dont know what riot wants. and also these 10 teams have permanent slots for only like 5-6 years, then there'll be a reset with new permanent orgs(most likely 80% of the current ones will stay and they'll add orgs like g2 or tsm, if they are more reliable in future than any of the older orgs ).

#20

AntiWest

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I always prefer having a relegation system because the current format doesn't punish orgs who doesn't take the standard of the competition seriously since you can have orgs like RRQ or DFM who could field a shit roster that aren't competitive for the next couple of years and still left unpunished.

#25

symbols07

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i think its more on rrq, dfm atleast try to field a good roster, its just that they cant do with the talent pool there is in japan, they try adding koreans, and i think thats the max they can do , until the players on the team gain experience and all.

#22

H0llyw00d

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Starting in 2026 riot has said they will have two teams from ascension go into the international league. They have this all planned out so starting in 2027 there will be 14 teams in each international league. With them having everything planned out years and years in advance I doubt we get any change to the current system other than adding a 4th international league being China.

#23

Scar98

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U don't know the purpose of this franchising format don't you?
Riot and orgs want stability. Where's the stability if u do that?

#26

Trykan

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Riot used to do this with League of Legends before their current franchised system. The only down side with relegating a team from the franchised league is that orgs might be more hesitant to invest/join the league if their org has the risk of relegating within 1 year.

I for one agree that they should be relegated though

#27

R1ddleR

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how can it be a franchise model if it has relegation?? bro doesn't know how a franchise model works in sports😭😭. Watch NBA, IPL etc.

#28

Mortadelo

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Nah what you’re proposing here does not make sense at least no on a context of Franchising. If there is relegation then it’s just an invitational league, which is possible but it’s completely incompatible with what Riot has already proposed. And in my opinion what they’re doing is a lot better

Look first of all 2 teams ascending every year is already confirmed if you check how the system works but basically the proposal is:

2023: 1 team ascends (11 team league)
2024: 1 team ascends (12 team league)
2025: 2 team ascend, 2023 team is relegated (13 team league)
2026: 2 team ascend, 2024 team is relegated (14 team league)
2027 and on: 2 teams ascend and the 2 teams that ascended 2 years ago (2025) are relegated (14 team league forever)

There is something else tho, which is what gives the pressure to actually perform well to every single org and avoid Astralis LOL kind of things. Every 4 years (2027) Riot gets to change as many franchised teams as they want, so if they decided any of the ascended orgs does a better job than one of the partnered ones then you’re out. I think this is great, because it gives orgs times to build long term projects but also gives them the pressure to perform, so if an org does bad it’s not because they don’t care it’s just because they missed. Plus doesn’t limit you to just 1 descended, it can be as many as Riot wants

#32

capital_d_colon

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Yeah what I'm suggesting goes against the fundamentals of franchising.

Alot of what I'm saying is just due to the lack of information right now surrounding ascended teams and riots punishments on orgs.

I'm just not a fan of the franchised model.(if it wasn't obvious (
It assumes the best out of each org which is rarely the case in esports

#33

Mortadelo

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Well, we can have that debate if you want then, because I’m a big defender of the system Riot is trying to implement which is not really franchising either (call it like that anyway)

#35

yungbasel

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Someone with an understanding

#31

LyCan52

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They can make a new league for each region with 8 permanent teams and teams from ascension will qualify for that league

#34

deathlyclaws

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Not a bad idea

#37

RA621H

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You know, if a team could just simply be replace like that that team isn't "franchised", though non of the teams have fulfilled any obligations of a traditional sports franchise model so its more like atm we don't actually have a franchised team in vct in the first place.

#38

saka

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wait isnt there yearly one new team in each league? or whats ritos plan