I'm gonna try to balance every controller.

Warning: this is a very long thread.

If you've been following the series (I've done duelists and initiators so far), then you know how this works. I'm gonna present my take on changes for every single controller, regardless of whether they're in a good state or not (they're not), and I'm gonna give insight as to why I'm making the decisions I'm making. As I've done previously, I'm formatting this kind of like patch notes, just because it's a bit easier for me to organize and for you to read.

With that out of the way, enjoy the atrocities I'm committing and let me know what you think about these changes.

Omen has slowly and silently clawed his way to the top of the meta. There's not a single map in VALORANT where you can't justify playing Omen, because there's so much he offers that other controllers just simply don't—oneways alone are enough for him to see play, let alone his Paranoia, which is arguably the best ability in the entire game. Plus there's so much beyond that that just makes Omen so much better than every other controller. He's seeing something like a 75% pickrate globally for a very good reason. And the most difficult part of it is... how do you nerf him? His tps are very punishable, his ultimate is super situational, and his blind only lasts 2 seconds. I've thought for a long time on how to nerf him, so here's the best I was all able to come up with. These changes aim to keep his uniqueness while giving some of his niches a bit more cost.

• Dark Cover (E) duration decreased from 15 seconds >> 9 seconds when not in contact with the ground below
• Dark Cover (E) maximum deploy distance decreased from 80 >> 68 meters
• Paranoia (Q) radius decreased from 4.3 >> 3.6 meters
• Paranoia (Q) travel length decreased from 32.5 >> 27 meters
• Paranoia (Q) nearsight vision radius increased from 7.5 >> 9 meters
• Paranoia (Q) cost increased from 250 >> 350 credits

Astra, up until the end of 2023, was viewed as a direct competitor to Omen. Her main perks were global smokes, initiator-esque utility, and an ult you can exec or retake with. However, with the dramatic rise in popularity for Omen, Astra is seeing almost zero play as a result. The nerfs to her Gravity Well a bit under a year ago also play into this—it was her strongest ability, and although this was the case the nerf felt unwarranted. She did receive a few nerfs this year, but quality of life changes alone aren't going to help her see play over Omen. She needs some love, and these changes attempt to do just that, giving her more freedom in allowing her to use her abilities while still having enough stars to smoke for the team.

• Astral Stars charges from 4 >> 5
• Astral Stars cooldown decreased from 25 >> 15 seconds
• Astral Stars activation windup time decreased from 1.5 >> 1 second
• Nebula (E) cooldown increased from 25 >> 30 seconds
• Dissipate (F) duration increased from 1 >> 2 seconds
• Gravity Well (C) windup time decreased from 1.25 to 0.8 seconds
• Cosmic Divide (X) effective duration increased from 21 >> 30 seconds
• Cosmic Divide (X) cost increased from 7 >> 8 ultimate points

Brimstone is another dome smoker—a very simple and traditional one at that. He also tends to suffer from Omen's success, but not in as cut and dry a way as Astra is. Brimstone is a weird case where he's irreplaceable on Bind and Fracture... and yet never sees any play on any other map, despite everything. I did a bit of research and it turns out he saw play on maps such Split and Ascent in the earlier days of the game, but as Omen and Astra grew in popularity he eventually became obsolete. Brimstone has clear advantages and yet much clearer disadvantages when it comes to other controllers. These changes aim to repair some of his weaknesses and highlight some of his strengths, in order to keep him in contention with other dome smokers.

• Sky Smoke (E) charges increased from 3 >> 4
• Sky Smoke (E) maximum cast range increased from 55 >> 60 meters
• Stim Beacon (C) charges increased from 1 >> 2
• Stim Beacon (C) cost reduced from 200 >> 100 credits
• Stim Beacon (C) buff duration increased from 4 >> 5
• Incendiary (Q) cost decreased from 250 >> 200 credits
• Orbital Strike (X) damage per tick increased from 20 >> 25

Clove is the newest controller in VALORANT, and although she's seeing enormous success in the competitive queue, her performance in VCT thus far has been lackluster. This is because of how situational her kit can be... her decay never finds value, her heal is gone in 6 seconds, and her ultimate can be countered pretty easily in coordinated play. In order to be a viable pick, Clove needs some big changes. These changes are the ones I propose, attempting to give Clove a fresh perspective whilst keeping their core identity as a duelist-controller hybrid.

• Ruse (E) cooldown decreased from 30 >> 25 seconds
• Pick Me Up (C) overheal reduced from 100 >> 60 HP
• Pick Me Up (C) duration increased from 8 >> 20 seconds
• Meddle (Q) charges increased from 1 >> 2
• Meddle (Q) cost decreased from 200 >> 100 credits
• Meddle (Q) windup decreased from 1.3 >> 0.9 seconds
• Meddle (Q) no longer detonates until it lands (i.e. lineups are now possible)
• Not Dead Yet (X) rework: Clove is granted a 20 second window of life once they exit their dismiss. They will die once those 20 seconds expire. If Clove does not die before the ultimate expires, it does not count as a death. This change is aimed to encourage team play and punish solo aggression.

Viper has been a thorn in the side of the VALORANT meta for a very long time. Her unique abilities make her a broken agent by nature. With the changes introduced in episode 8, Viper is still oppressive and yet now feels terrible to play—the worst of both worlds. These changes aim to correct that, to try to keep her unique identity while making her a more balanced agent and bringing her closer to the other controllers all at the same time.

• Poison Cloud (Q) cost decreased from 200 >> 150 credits
• Poison Cloud (Q) charges increased from 1 >> 2
• Poison Cloud (Q) rework: similarly to Harbor's Cove, the smoke forms as soon as the orb lands and stays up for 13.5 seconds before dissipating. The orb is not tied to Viper's fuel. This change aims to give Viper back some of her lurk potential while not having it be a constant threat throughout the round.
• Snake Bite (C) cost decreased from 300 >> 200 credits

Harbor is a controller that doesn't receive very much love. He is arguably the most creative controller in the game, and his smokes can do things others simply can't, and yet he doesn't seem to be seeing any play, and his strengths aren't very commonly communicated. He's difficult to learn, hard to find personal value from, and only plays to his fullest as-is in very coordinated settings. He needs a lot more incentive and quality of life changes before people are willing to pick him up. These changes aim to bring about a real reason to play Harbor, in a sense.

• High Tide (E) travel distance increased from 50 >> 60 meters
• High Tide (E) cooldown decreased from 40 >> 30 seconds
• High Tide (E) line drawn on the ground when casting is now hidden to the enemy team (i.e. they can't tell where you're walling from)
• High Tide (E) and Cascade (C) increased from 30% >> 50%
• High Tide (E) and Cascade (C) no longer slow allies
• Cascade (C) duration when stopped increased from 7 >> 10 seconds
• Cove (Q) HP increased from 500 >> 650
• Cove (Q) cost decreased from 350 >> 300
• Reckoning (X) stun windup decreased from 1.3 >> 0.95 seconds

Well, that's all for me. This took me way longer than it should've. I'm gonna go sleep now. I hope you like my ideas, and let me know if there's anything you'd change.

This was a single digit number of characters below the limit, btw

astra 5 stars i fw it but omen 9 seconds is BRUTAL

ew
no one reading that

harbour buffs need to be added

four smokes for brim is insane

It's crazy to think now that jett used to have 7 seconds cloudbrust duration

All Of That

4 brim smokes is crazy work

i love some of the ideas, especially the omen one way time nerf, but i think u did too much

Nah u doin too much fam

this is very long?

Po0o [#4]

ew
no one reading that

typical SEN fan 2 second Zellsissy attention span

Ok so the plan is to perform omen into the ground and buff astra to an astronomically high degree. Cool sounds good to me. Excuse me while I become an astra main again.

I knew Clove was cooked when they announced she'd be an orb smoker, Astra, Brim and Omen are hard to compete with. I think changing Omen is unnecessary but I like buffing Astra and Brim together. Viper doesn't need two orbs at all or for her orb to not use fuel, maybe just a little bit more fuel overall. Harbour changes are solid.

Thank god you don't work for riot. Bro straight up killed omen and made astra invincible. And clove is still ass. Harbor ult way too strong.

I like that these changes are aimed to make all the controllers so viable that it's literally only a preference when making comps

But I think you overcooked a bit too much with Viper, I think that a single bubble it's just fine

very cool changes, but I think you completely ruined Omen ngl. Love the brim buffs tho

BrimDaddy

Allat warning where

K4ziuHa [#20]

Allat warning where

also I ain't reading Allat

munestar [#3]

astra 5 stars i fw it but omen 9 seconds is BRUTAL

I don't think it'll be too bad once people were to get used to it (theoretically, of course). A smoke lasting 9 seconds is stupid, but a oneway lasting 9 seconds feels more fair to me. Of course we can't be sure unless we can actually try these things in-game, so take that with a grain of salt

Po0o [#4]

ew
no one reading that

Literally read the first sentence

Zephyros [#5]

harbour buffs need to be added

I'd absolutely love any Harbor buffs Riot are willing to give us. My guy needs some love and he needs it now

Bro should be picked up by the balancing team

shrike- [#6]

four smokes for brim is insane

I think so, too. When I was thinking of the changes I wanted to make for Brim, what went through my head is: what can't Brim do with three smokes? The biggest thing that came to mind was the ability to use smokes sparingly. For example, if you're playing a slow round on the attack, if you were to smoke top mid and then smoke for your teammate to get them out of danger, you now only have one smoke for the site hit, and even if you manage to pull that through you have no smokes for the postplant. Running out of smokes like that is something that doesn't really happen on Omen, and I feel an extra smoke for Brim is the best way to repair that shortcoming without straight up adding a recharge or doing something too crazy. I guess people would be able to use 4 smokes on their site exec now, but that's an unintended consequence.

GE_JERRYCHAPULIN [#8]

All Of That

Literally read the first sentence of the thread

pugboy [#9]

4 brim smokes is crazy work

#26

kanyefan4238173 [#10]

i love some of the ideas, especially the omen one way time nerf, but i think u did too much

I definitely overcooked a little, especially with Brimstone and Viper, but I'm honestly pretty happy with what I ended up with :)

uwukitten [#12]

this is very long?

I mean... I don't think so personally, but you know how VLR users are. Gotta give a disclaimer, no matter how accurate.

unknown_trash [#14]

Ok so the plan is to perform omen into the ground and buff astra to an astronomically high degree. Cool sounds good to me. Excuse me while I become an astra main again.

The Astra buffs are kind of huge (though I did nerf her smokes duration and made her ult an 8 cost), but knowing the pro scene I think people will still opt into Omen at least half the time. As for Omen, I didn't really do much at the end of the day. I made his oneways last less time, his smoke range is now shorter, and his Paranoia is now slightly less oppressive and has a price tag to match its expected value.

K4ziuHa [#21]

also I ain't reading Allat

Bro failed school
It says it’s long at the top🤦‍♂️

Changing way too much and making agents too powerful, gonna be like Astra viper meta with this much util

ArrowVal [#33]

Changing way too much and making agents too powerful, gonna be like Astra viper meta with this much util

All of these 1-5% changes amount to A TON at the end

guest1305 [#15]

I knew Clove was cooked when they announced she'd be an orb smoker, Astra, Brim and Omen are hard to compete with. I think changing Omen is unnecessary but I like buffing Astra and Brim together. Viper doesn't need two orbs at all or for her orb to not use fuel, maybe just a little bit more fuel overall. Harbour changes are solid.

I don't mind having another dome smoker as long as they have a fresh take on it. Omen has his shadow realm to place smokes, letting him place very creative smokes but giving him a pretty high skill ceiling (purely taking smokes into account) because of how you can mess up his smokes if you put them down too quickly. Astra has global smokes but you need to learn to place them in advance. Brimstone can place very quick and accurate smokes, but that results in a lack of range. Every controller has their own unique upsides and downsides and I wish Clove had that instead of just copying Brimstone.

As for Viper... yeah, I overcooked with the two orbs. In my head I thought "hmm... maybe Viper can use her wall to lurk while having lineups for both smokes to be able to smoke for the site hit." But that's just way too broken... 😅

NexusNomad [#16]

Thank god you don't work for riot. Bro straight up killed omen and made astra invincible. And clove is still ass. Harbor ult way too strong.

Omen got nerfs to oneways, smoke range, and the paranoia. Astra got some overall buffs but all it really does is bring her on par with Omen when it comes to expected value. Clove was a tough agent to come up with changes for but I did the best I could with what I had. And Harbor ult is just slightly harder to dodge. I don't understand why you're so pressed; I might just not be seeing what you're seeing.

Hobbit [#17]

I like that these changes are aimed to make all the controllers so viable that it's literally only a preference when making comps

But I think you overcooked a bit too much with Viper, I think that a single bubble it's just fine

Thank you! Yeah, in hindsight, that's a pretty extreme change to make, probably even more so than the rework. I'd go back and edit out that change but so many people have replied already as to where I feel there's no point.

munestar [#3]

astra 5 stars i fw it but omen 9 seconds is BRUTAL

bruh thats how long jett smokes used to last before her nerf

9 seconds is shambolic for omen

M7mdA13 [#18]

very cool changes, but I think you completely ruined Omen ngl. Love the brim buffs tho

Thank you! Do you think Omen's unusable now? I feel all I really did is reduce the range, make oneways less oppressive, and give the paranoia a fair cost vs. expected value.

K4ziuHa [#20]

Allat warning where

Right at the top of the thread

Boltsnationriseup [#25]

Bro should be picked up by the balancing team

😨

ArrowVal [#33]

Changing way too much and making agents too powerful, gonna be like Astra viper meta with this much util

I'm gonna be honest, I probably am. But I feel making every controller good is better than making every controller bad. I definitely went too far with that philosphy, though, I think

cloudberry [#40]

Right at the top of the thread

That reads "very long thread"
Next time just write ALLAT WARNING

K4ziuHa [#43]

That reads "very long thread"
Next time just write ALLAT WARNING

I expected better of you, K4ziuHa

cloudberry [#44]

I expected better of you, K4ziuHa

I was just giving advice 😔

cloudberry [#2]

This was a single digit number of characters below the limit, btw

u can put it in code form to fit more text

smthlikeyou11 [#46]

u can put it in code form to fit more text

Good to know, thank you

cloudberry [#39]

Thank you! Do you think Omen's unusable now? I feel all I really did is reduce the range, make oneways less oppressive, and give the paranoia a fair cost vs. expected value.

Cost change should be good but not with the nerfs you gave to the Paranoia. Dark Cover changes also not really needed.

I think for Omen the reduced one-way duration is too convoluted and unintuitive to be implemented by riot. Just globally nerfing the duration of smokes would be enough along with the paranoia nerfs.

The Astra changes are practically turning her into pre-nerf which is way too much lol just return the 5th star and reduce the windup or cooldowns a bit, if that

Brim changes are good but idk if he needs a 4th smoke. I like the idea of him turning the whole team into Neon-lites

Harbor changes are good too. Idk why riot thought it'd be a good idea to give away his position with high tide. Admittedly this version of Harbor would be a pain to push if combo'd with a sentinel but I suppose that's already true for Viper

smthlikeyou11 [#46]

u can put it in code form to fit more text

Why did you have to remind him

Spectral_ [#49]

Cost change should be good but not with the nerfs you gave to the Paranoia. Dark Cover changes also not really needed.

Noted, thanks

cloudberry [#42]

I'm gonna be honest, I probably am. But I feel making every controller good is better than making every controller bad. I definitely went too far with that philosphy, though, I think

I mean it's impossible to make all the right decisions in one fell swoop like this. It's why Riot prefers to make small tweaks one a time so they can get more clear feedback for each little thing as they go

bees [#50]

I think for Omen the reduced one-way duration is too convoluted and unintuitive to be implemented by riot. Just globally nerfing the duration of smokes would be enough along with the paranoia nerfs.

The Astra changes are practically turning her into pre-nerf which is way too much lol just return the 5th star and reduce the windup or cooldowns a bit, if that

Brim changes are good but idk if he needs a 4th smoke. I like the idea of him turning the whole team into Neon-lites

Harbor changes are good too. Idk why riot thought it'd be a good idea to give away his position with high tide. Admittedly this version of Harbor would be a pain to push if combo'd with a sentinel but I suppose that's already true for Viper

I agree mostly with this criticism, specifically about Astra, Brim, and the Omen one-way. That being said, I'd like to add some comments:

1. Omen's smoke duration is already prohibitively low. I think you'd need to nerf smokes for all agents, but I also believe this would make gameplay far less enjoyable. I think that if players are using Omen a lot, it doesn't mean he is OP, it just means he is an agent they find useful.
2. The opposite is also true - just because players don't play a lot of Harbor doesn't mean he isn't OP. Any character that can cast a wall instantly changes the pace of the game. I would keep the "giving away his position" aspect and just introduce that with viper - have her "charge up" the wall for 3 seconds instead of just firing it and then running away.

bees [#50]

I think for Omen the reduced one-way duration is too convoluted and unintuitive to be implemented by riot. Just globally nerfing the duration of smokes would be enough along with the paranoia nerfs.

The Astra changes are practically turning her into pre-nerf which is way too much lol just return the 5th star and reduce the windup or cooldowns a bit, if that

Brim changes are good but idk if he needs a 4th smoke. I like the idea of him turning the whole team into Neon-lites

Harbor changes are good too. Idk why riot thought it'd be a good idea to give away his position with high tide. Admittedly this version of Harbor would be a pain to push if combo'd with a sentinel but I suppose that's already true for Viper

• The thing about Omen's Dark Cover is you can't really find a good baseline number where his smokes still have good value as smokes, but aren't too oppressive as oneways. You could argue 11 or 12, but if there's one thing I've learned from playing with Clove, it's that 12 seconds isn't really long enough for a smoke to find full value, especially to stall or exec (Clove can stay the exception; I'm giving her a reduced cooldown to accommodate anyway). Besides, when I draft these threads, I'm not exactly considering the code side of things, and I think you can understand that.

• The Astra changes might be a little much, I'll admit, but the question I had in mind when buffing her was: how far do I need to take it before Astra becomes a 50/50 competitor to Omen? The way I see it, I'm highlighting Astra's strengths as a primary dome smoker in order to incentivize people to consider playing her, whether that be with or in spite of Omen.

• I explained the Brimstone change to 4 smokes in #26, so feel free to check that out.

• The Harbor changes only seem fair, in my honest opinion. He's been the weakest controller for quite a long time, which is quite insane considering how flexible and creative he can be. He has very clear disadvantages as-is and the changes I tried to implement seek to not only fix those gaps in his kit, but also help him find a better balance between baseline value and expected value, as well as to push him to see play on maps where he may not be as considered as he currently is.

bees [#53]

I mean it's impossible to make all the right decisions in one fell swoop like this. It's why Riot prefers to make small tweaks one a time so they can get more clear feedback for each little thing as they go

That's very true, but at the same time, little tweaks and changes don't always help an agent see more play. Chamber, for example, hasn't exactly been used much in the current meta, even though he's been incrementally buffed over the past year or so, and some of those buffs are actually good. I think a better way to go about things is the approach they took with Neon—a quick load of changes, shaking up the meta but not too heavily. I feel Neon's reimplementation as a viable duelist was the smoothest meta change to date, because it helped Neon find her place so quickly while not negatively impacting the pick rate of the other duelists—not even Raze, who has been meta on most of the maps Neon's finding value on now. That's the kind of implementation I like, and that's the kind I'd go for it I was Riot.

ascention [#51]

Why did you have to remind him

LMAO

ascention [#54]

I agree mostly with this criticism, specifically about Astra, Brim, and the Omen one-way. That being said, I'd like to add some comments:

1. Omen's smoke duration is already prohibitively low. I think you'd need to nerf smokes for all agents, but I also believe this would make gameplay far less enjoyable. I think that if players are using Omen a lot, it doesn't mean he is OP, it just means he is an agent they find useful.
2. The opposite is also true - just because players don't play a lot of Harbor doesn't mean he isn't OP. Any character that can cast a wall instantly changes the pace of the game. I would keep the "giving away his position" aspect and just introduce that with viper - have her "charge up" the wall for 3 seconds instead of just firing it and then running away.

1. It's higher than every other smoke in the game except for Brim's though. The problem with Omen is that he shouldn't be the controller who can best contest space and the controller with the most smoke uptime throughout the round. It's like the Skye problem, where she was a mix of roles but still kinda comparable in all of them to the more specialized initiators.

2. Harbor is not OP by any stretch of the imagination. He can cast a wall on demand, yeah, but he sacrifices the stopping power that all other controllers have in order to do so. And even then he still has less smoke uptime unless he throws his literal entire kit into one choke. He can change the pace on attack, sure, but he's one of the worst agents in the game at defending space, so it's valid to buff the already undervalued niche he exists in.

bees [#58]

1. It's higher than every other smoke in the game except for Brim's though. The problem with Omen is that he shouldn't be the controller who can best contest space and the controller with the most smoke uptime throughout the round. It's like the Skye problem, where she was a mix of roles but still kinda comparable in all of them to the more specialized initiators.

2. Harbor is not OP by any stretch of the imagination. He can cast a wall on demand, yeah, but he sacrifices the stopping power that all other controllers have in order to do so. And even then he still has less smoke uptime unless he throws his literal entire kit into one choke. He can change the pace on attack, sure, but he's one of the worst agents in the game at defending space, so it's valid to buff the already undervalued niche he exists in.

100% agree with this

cloudberry [#55]

• The thing about Omen's Dark Cover is you can't really find a good baseline number where his smokes still have good value as smokes, but aren't too oppressive as oneways. You could argue 11 or 12, but if there's one thing I've learned from playing with Clove, it's that 12 seconds isn't really long enough for a smoke to find full value, especially to stall or exec (Clove can stay the exception; I'm giving her a reduced cooldown to accommodate anyway). Besides, when I draft these threads, I'm not exactly considering the code side of things, and I think you can understand that.

• The Astra changes might be a little much, I'll admit, but the question I had in mind when buffing her was: how far do I need to take it before Astra becomes a 50/50 competitor to Omen? The way I see it, I'm highlighting Astra's strengths as a primary dome smoker in order to incentivize people to consider playing her, whether that be with or in spite of Omen.

• I explained the Brimstone change to 4 smokes in #26, so feel free to check that out.

• The Harbor changes only seem fair, in my honest opinion. He's been the weakest controller for quite a long time, which is quite insane considering how flexible and creative he can be. He has very clear disadvantages as-is and the changes I tried to implement seek to not only fix those gaps in his kit, but also help him find a better balance between baseline value and expected value, as well as to push him to see play on maps where he may not be as considered as he currently is.

I didn't mean coding-wise. I just meant that Riot wants to keep the way utility works intuitive to players, and reducing the duration of a smoke depending on where its placed is kinda awkward.

I feel like the main reason Astra is picked so much less than Omen is because her theoretically stronger execute power is kinda moot when paranoia can come out faster, covers more ground, and doesn't compete for resources with smokes. Nerfing paranoia, giving Astra 5 stars, and reducing windup time balances that while also making Astra's ability to provide support from anywhere more relevant.

Harbor's creativity is limited so much by the actual ground that high tide and cascade can cover in any practical situation. He'd be so much better if he could cast them from a minimap display wherever he wants like the other controllers, but unfortunately we have to make this work. It's tough.

bees [#60]

I didn't mean coding-wise. I just meant that Riot wants to keep the way utility works intuitive to players, and reducing the duration of a smoke depending on where its placed is kinda awkward.

I feel like the main reason Astra is picked so much less than Omen is because her theoretically stronger execute power is kinda moot when paranoia can come out faster, covers more ground, and doesn't compete for resources with smokes. Nerfing paranoia, giving Astra 5 stars, and reducing windup time balances that while also making Astra's ability to provide support from anywhere more relevant.

Harbor's creativity is limited so much by the actual ground that high tide and cascade can cover in any practical situation. He'd be so much better if he could cast them from a minimap display wherever he wants like the other controllers, but unfortunately we have to make this work. It's tough.

Great points. Maybe you should be making these threads 😅

cloudberry [#61]

Great points. Maybe you should be making these threads 😅

Thanks but I get too invested in these kinds of things lol. Great post too and I agree with most of it fr it's just fun to discuss

Are you doing one for sentinels too?

cloudberry [#26]

I think so, too. When I was thinking of the changes I wanted to make for Brim, what went through my head is: what can't Brim do with three smokes? The biggest thing that came to mind was the ability to use smokes sparingly. For example, if you're playing a slow round on the attack, if you were to smoke top mid and then smoke for your teammate to get them out of danger, you now only have one smoke for the site hit, and even if you manage to pull that through you have no smokes for the postplant. Running out of smokes like that is something that doesn't really happen on Omen, and I feel an extra smoke for Brim is the best way to repair that shortcoming without straight up adding a recharge or doing something too crazy. I guess people would be able to use 4 smokes on their site exec now, but that's an unintended consequence.

maybe 3 smokes + only 1 recharge?

bees [#62]

Thanks but I get too invested in these kinds of things lol. Great post too and I agree with most of it fr it's just fun to discuss

Are you doing one for sentinels too?

It's super fun to discuss this kind of stuff! Also yeah, I should be posting the sentinels thread soon.

Refrainings [#63]

maybe 3 smokes + only 1 recharge?

That's a pretty good idea, honestly. How long would you make the recharge, though? 60 seconds?

cloudberry [#29]

I definitely overcooked a little, especially with Brimstone and Viper, but I'm honestly pretty happy with what I ended up with :)

I feel like viper's insane stopping power is almost untouched w your propositions, if not even enhanced in some ways. Limiting how any HP she is able to decay would be a great thing in my opinion, kinda like clove's decay works, so that, execpt in her ult, you can't put your ennemies so down in hp that they're all one shot

MrBlooBloom [#66]

I feel like viper's insane stopping power is almost untouched w your propositions, if not even enhanced in some ways. Limiting how any HP she is able to decay would be a great thing in my opinion, kinda like clove's decay works, so that, execpt in her ult, you can't put your ennemies so down in hp that they're all one shot

I like the thought process for the ult, but I don't feel it's too good for a 9 cost ult. If you compare it to Killjoy's Lockdown, you can see they're very similar in that they demand a massive ton of respect and are great to stall or guarantee space, but both have good counters—in Killjoy's case, it's molly/nade lineups and certain ultimates such as Sova and Killjoy, while in Viper's case, it's recon/angle clearning abilities and certain ultimates such as Killjoy, Harbor, and Gekko.

That being said, Viper doesn't really have much stopping power now that she has one molly. And if we're making her orb throwable then she's not gonna have it on the choke all the time, so you could even timing it.

cloudberry [#67]

I like the thought process for the ult, but I don't feel it's too good for a 9 cost ult. If you compare it to Killjoy's Lockdown, you can see they're very similar in that they demand a massive ton of respect and are great to stall or guarantee space, but both have good counters—in Killjoy's case, it's molly/nade lineups and certain ultimates such as Sova and Killjoy, while in Viper's case, it's recon/angle clearning abilities and certain ultimates such as Killjoy, Harbor, and Gekko.

That being said, Viper doesn't really have much stopping power now that she has one molly. And if we're making her orb throwable then she's not gonna have it on the choke all the time, so you could even timing it.

Nah I think you've been misunderstanding me, i ain't proposing any change about the ult.

For Exemple I was thinking of Hookah, where the wall+molly can basically destroy a 4 man exec, which means that if you were to add a temporary orb that costs no fuel it'd be absolutely cracked. That being said that throwable orb-thing is a good nerf on attack

Very interesting changes! I like it overall, though I think you might've gutted Omen a little too much and gave Astra too much power, but overall I wouldn't mind seeing how this meta would shape out.
One thing I'm surprised you didn't change has to do with Harbor, as it's something that I've thought could be changed for a while:

• Cove (Q) Remains as a smoke after the shield is broken

MrBlooBloom [#68]

Nah I think you've been misunderstanding me, i ain't proposing any change about the ult.

For Exemple I was thinking of Hookah, where the wall+molly can basically destroy a 4 man exec, which means that if you were to add a temporary orb that costs no fuel it'd be absolutely cracked. That being said that throwable orb-thing is a good nerf on attack

Oh I get what you mean. Makes her a lot better on defense, a lot worse on attack. Honestly yeah, I can see that. Is that a welcome change, though? I'm not sure. I'd have to rethink. Thanks

Convoy [#13]

typical SEN fan 2 second Zellsissy attention span

We don't claim him

bees [#58]

1. It's higher than every other smoke in the game except for Brim's though. The problem with Omen is that he shouldn't be the controller who can best contest space and the controller with the most smoke uptime throughout the round. It's like the Skye problem, where she was a mix of roles but still kinda comparable in all of them to the more specialized initiators.

2. Harbor is not OP by any stretch of the imagination. He can cast a wall on demand, yeah, but he sacrifices the stopping power that all other controllers have in order to do so. And even then he still has less smoke uptime unless he throws his literal entire kit into one choke. He can change the pace on attack, sure, but he's one of the worst agents in the game at defending space, so it's valid to buff the already undervalued niche he exists in.

Could you elaborate on the stopping power you are referring to?

I disagree with your point about Harbor not being OP, because his low smoke uptime is matched with him being able to have near complete control over his util. His wall is fully customizable in the sense that you can adjust it to any shape your team needs. His cascade ability is what Iso dreams of - a flat wall that can stop at any position along its path. And cove is the single most useful ability for defusing the spike besides maybe gekko's buddy.

If I had to choose a place where to buff Harbor, I'd say to increase the impact of the "Slowed" ability.

cloudberry [#36]

Omen got nerfs to oneways, smoke range, and the paranoia. Astra got some overall buffs but all it really does is bring her on par with Omen when it comes to expected value. Clove was a tough agent to come up with changes for but I did the best I could with what I had. And Harbor ult is just slightly harder to dodge. I don't understand why you're so pressed; I might just not be seeing what you're seeing.

There will be no reason to play omen if his smoke lasts for 9 seconds. That shit is way too less and Bron having 20s 4 smokes is insane. Astra was extremely strong because of how fast her abilities would regenerate compared to her competitors, you reversing it would just undo all the nerfs. Harbor ults main function is not to stun you, that is the breach ult. Harbor ults main function is for the enemy to either take a fight or vacate the area. Reducing the windup time makes it extremely strong and hard to dodge without being stunned.

Cool ideas, but I do agree with the other sentiments of overcooking as I think there are too many changes happening, most of them buffs that push controllers in to a stronger and more spammy playstyle when I believe that most of the imbalance of pick-rate comes from one (omen) being significantly stronger than the others.
-Omen has some good ideas like the one-way adjustment and paranoia range but nearsight and smoke range changes are unnecessary.
-Brim already has a good niche in the meta and buffing molly/ult incentives toxic post plant play along with giving him 80 seconds of vision-block is extreme.
-Astra is a complete overcook and all she needs in the extra star. Clove just needs more range on the smokes both in life and death.
-Give clove more range in both life and death along with the proposed meddle changes would be enough for her imo.
-Viper is a problem character but I feel like there should be more of a lean in to the map and info control compared to defending an area. This is why I propose a change to the amount and speed that decay is dealt with a raising of the minimum health to shift the focus to the smoke instead of the damage.
-Harbor just needs the cooldown reduction to the wall you proposed and the rest is unnecessary as I think harbor is still excellent and people just aren't experimenting enough with him

althat

NexusNomad [#73]

There will be no reason to play omen if his smoke lasts for 9 seconds. That shit is way too less and Bron having 20s 4 smokes is insane. Astra was extremely strong because of how fast her abilities would regenerate compared to her competitors, you reversing it would just undo all the nerfs. Harbor ults main function is not to stun you, that is the breach ult. Harbor ults main function is for the enemy to either take a fight or vacate the area. Reducing the windup time makes it extremely strong and hard to dodge without being stunned.

• Omen's smokes only last 9 seconds if they're not in direct contact with the ground. In other words, smokes are 15 seconds and oneways are 9 seconds
• Astra might be a bit overtuned, yeah, but I don't think she necessarily has an edge over others when it comes to cooldown. Imagine this: instead of 5 stars, she has 2 smokes with one recharge, 1 stun, and 1 suck. This is essentially the same thing
• It's very easy to weave in and around of Harbor's ult stun circle as-is. The majority of the time it's not getting anyone off the site, it's just making them move around a little. It's pretty underwhelming as-is, so decreasing the amount of time it takes for you to get stunned forces opponents to either tank the stun or respect the ult