1 Champs win + 1 Non-Champs win > 3 Non-champs wins
Champs is the most important major of the year by far surely it has way more of an impact on someone's legacy no?
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Is Sacy better than Chronicle?
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trembolonaRage [#2]no
why? Are you telling me Madrid has equal importance to Champs? When I ask who won in 2023, your first thought is EG no? Champs is THE major of the year.
AltonBu02 [#3]why? Are you telling me Madrid has equal importance to Champs? When I ask who won in 2023, your first thought is EG no? Champs is THE major of the year.
EG themselves think that FNC 2023 > EG 2023
if you look at it through the scope of trophies and nothing else, then maybe
however, Sacy has a 1 year gap in his resume on a mediocre SEN team
Chronicle staying relevant for so long + always being near the top of the competition (even if only regionally) is more impressive
both players are insane but right now I'll take Chronicle over Sacy
Gutwi [#7]EG themselves think that FNC 2023 > EG 2023
that quite literally adds nothing to this conversation. Doesn't change the fact that Champs is by far the most important tournament.
MissesHisShots [#10]if you look at it through the scope of trophies and nothing else, then maybe
however, Sacy has a 1 year gap in his resume on a mediocre SEN team
Chronicle staying relevant for so long + always being near the top of the competition (even if only regionally) is more impressive
both players are insane but right now I'll take Chronicle over Sacy
I would too, but this is mostly a post to show that Sacy is in talks as one of the greats, especially with how many people don't even bring him up when they talk about who has achieved the most in valorant.
AltonBu02 [#11]that quite literally adds nothing to this conversation. Doesn't change the fact that Champs is by far the most important tournament.
Didnt u ask if 2x non champs tour>champs tour?
laeDLaer [#9]Sacy is not even top 10 oat let’s be realistic
greatest of all time ≠ best of all time
sacy has a champs and a masters
Gutwi [#14]Didnt u ask if 2x non champs tour>champs tour?
Yeah, but what you said is quite literally irrelevant to the argument you are trying to make.
Dybala21 [#15]Nope, legacy wise and mechanically wise Chron is better, sorry Sacy
mechanically I agree, but how is Sacy lacking when it comes to achievements?
AltonBu02 [#18]mechanically I agree, but how is Sacy lacking when it comes to achievements?
Both are close but Chronicle just edges him. If Sacy had a good 2023, then I would say they’re the same
AltonBu02 [#17]Yeah, but what you said is quite literally irrelevant to the argument you are trying to make.
Do you not get that the champ winners themselves think that winning 2x international events in a row is more impressive, so Chronicle > Sacy?
Skoepdoep2 [#21]Lol Chron is simply a better player both util and aim wise
util is debatable imo. Aim wise Chronicle clears. Most people place a heavy emphasis on trophies when it comes to what makes a player great. I'm just saying that if people do truly think that, then Sacy should be up there as well right next to Chronicle.
Gutwi [#20]Do you not get that the champ winners themselves think that winning 2x international events in a row is more impressive, so Chronicle > Sacy?
can you link the exact clip so i can see what they said? By the way a humble opinion doesn't change the fact that Masters are just stepping stones for the big event of the year, Champs.
jixk [#22]i mean any champs before 2023 is a masters with different color scheme there was zero difference if i am remembering correctly
chorn clears regradless better agent pool better mechs better consistency
Champs has always had a different design so thats plain wrong.
flanador [#26]Champs has always had a different design so thats plain wrong.
i was talking about the format and win value why did you get stuck on the color scheme part yeah it had diff design too thats about it
Gutwi [#20]Do you not get that the champ winners themselves think that winning 2x international events in a row is more impressive, so Chronicle > Sacy?
bro nobody said that
shrike- [#16]greatest of all time ≠ best of all time
sacy has a champs and a masters
Sacy looked like Thanos in Ascent, 32 kills on a map in the Champions final is insane
jixk [#27]i was talking about the format and win value why did you get stuck on the color scheme part yeah it had diff design too thats about it
because it was wrong and diminishes the actual value of champs?!?
MissesHisShots [#10]if you look at it through the scope of trophies and nothing else, then maybe
however, Sacy has a 1 year gap in his resume on a mediocre SEN team
Chronicle staying relevant for so long + always being near the top of the competition (even if only regionally) is more impressive
both players are insane but right now I'll take Chronicle over Sacy
yea true but also getting 2 tourneys is no easy feat ,especially champs. So when a player has that there is definitely something to them that is not average. We may or may not see what they bring, but there is def something there.
MissesHisShots [#10]if you look at it through the scope of trophies and nothing else, then maybe
however, Sacy has a 1 year gap in his resume on a mediocre SEN team
Chronicle staying relevant for so long + always being near the top of the competition (even if only regionally) is more impressive
both players are insane but right now I'll take Chronicle over Sacy
Would Chronicle's time in m3c not be considered a gap in his resume too? He didn't qualify for any international events in 2022, similar to Sacy in 2023.
flanador [#31]because it was wrong and diminishes the actual value of champs?!?
can you genuinely give me proof that champs before 2023 was any different from masters
AltonBu02 [#23]util is debatable imo. Aim wise Chronicle clears. Most people place a heavy emphasis on trophies when it comes to what makes a player great. I'm just saying that if people do truly think that, then Sacy should be up there as well right next to Chronicle.
that's just dumb if you're a dogshit player who went negative during champs and your team still won then you still aren't good
Skoepdoep2 [#37]that's just dumb if you're a dogshit player who went negative during champs and your team still won then you still aren't good
I'm not saying I agree if anything I think most people place too much of an emphasis on trophies but I digress + that doesn't apply to Sacy who played insane when Loud won and good when Sen won
jixk [#35]can you genuinely give me proof that champs before 2023 was any different from masters
https://x.com/ValorantEsports/status/1469879716270256130 if you're referring to the trophy then yes, it has always looked different from masters
Rishoo [#33]Would Chronicle's time in m3c not be considered a gap in his resume too? He didn't qualify for any international events in 2022, similar to Sacy in 2023.
that's a fair point, however I'm willing to chuck this one up to circumstances outside of his control (GMB the org collapse, Russia attack on Ukraine), and even still M3C still had some level of dominance regionally and just missed out in LCQ GF, and I can't say the same for SEN.
again, both players are among some of the best in their regions (and itw) but in my opinion Chronicle is better (also I'm a little biased)
IMO you have to look at how they performed during their wins-and the level of play at the tourney
Chronicle
Berlin: Was a big part of why they won-but it was 2021 farmers leauge so competition level on the floor
Lock//IN: Didnt play a big part into why they won at all-Beat mid ass SEN Furia 100T and Navi and played like shit vs the only good team Loud
Tokyo: Was the third best player on his team-Competition was not high beat NRG w/Sage ardiis, PRX/Cgrs, but beat Good team EG twice
Sacy
Istanbul: Second/Third best player on the team-Level of Competiton Very High Beating Optic twice, DRX, Zeta, and Lev
Madrid: Played a part but was the fourth best player at Madrid-Level of competition was low only good team was GenG
They both have similar performances during their wins, but I think Sacy takes it purely on level of play
Hades_Loves_Rb [#43]IMO you have to look at how they performed during their wins-and the level of play at the tourney
Chronicle
Berlin: Was a big part of why they won-but it was 2021 farmers leauge so competition level on the floor
Lock//IN: Didnt play a big part into why they won at all-Beat mid ass SEN Furia 100T and Navi and played like shit vs the only good team Loud
Tokyo: Was the third best player on his team-Competition was not high beat NRG w/Sage ardiis, PRX/Cgrs, but beat Good team EG twiceSacy
Istanbul: Second/Third best player on the team-Level of Competiton Very High Beating Optic twice, DRX, Zeta, and Lev
Madrid: Played a part but was the fourth best player at Madrid-Level of competition was low only good team was GenGThey both have similar performances during their wins, but I think Sacy takes it purely on level of play
Yeah I do agree that he played the biggest role as the second best player in the 2021 run (behind nats), but as you said, the competition back then was super low
Gutwi [#20]Do you not get that the champ winners themselves think that winning 2x international events in a row is more impressive, so Chronicle > Sacy?
who in eg said that?
kskm [#4]i feel they are equally good support players who won with some insanely good players on their team
chronicle has more longevity tho, might seem odd to say considering sacy won a masters this year and chronicle didn’t but i feel it’s long gone the day where sacy can take over maps consistently with both fragging and utility, while i believe chroncle has been doing that since 2021
AltonBu02 [#18]mechanically I agree, but how is Sacy lacking when it comes to achievements?
he’s isn’t “lacking” they are close in a achievements but chronicle didn’t really have a bad year. You could say 2022 was a bad year but his team had a few non-valorant issues. Also chronicle has a tournament MVP which sacy lacks. His stats are also miles better
Gutwi [#7]EG themselves think that FNC 2023 > EG 2023
Source: I made it up 😭
The biggest praise I remember listening from EG was that fnatic were playing very good before champs
AltonBu02 [#24]can you link the exact clip so i can see what they said? By the way a humble opinion doesn't change the fact that Masters are just stepping stones for the big event of the year, Champs.
so you're saying the best team in 2021 was acend LMAO?
Hades_Loves_Rb [#43]IMO you have to look at how they performed during their wins-and the level of play at the tourney
Chronicle
Berlin: Was a big part of why they won-but it was 2021 farmers leauge so competition level on the floor
Lock//IN: Didnt play a big part into why they won at all-Beat mid ass SEN Furia 100T and Navi and played like shit vs the only good team Loud
Tokyo: Was the third best player on his team-Competition was not high beat NRG w/Sage ardiis, PRX/Cgrs, but beat Good team EG twiceSacy
Istanbul: Second/Third best player on the team-Level of Competiton Very High Beating Optic twice, DRX, Zeta, and Lev
Madrid: Played a part but was the fourth best player at Madrid-Level of competition was low only good team was GenGThey both have similar performances during their wins, but I think Sacy takes it purely on level of play
Lock/in Chronicle was important to his team. 1.12 rating with 203 acs is elite despite you judgement of the conpetition.
Also, an important thing to consider was how easily sacy was replaced. You can def argue that individuallly Cauanzin was better by far in 2023 and played like their 3rd best player. Not saying that tuyz was bad, but had LOUD kept Pancada, 2023 would probably look a lot different
merciless-pity8989-89 [#55]Lock/in Chronicle was important to his team. 1.12 rating with 203 acs is elite despite you judgement of the conpetition.
Also, an important thing to consider was how easily sacy was replaced. You can def argue that individuallly Cauanzin was better by far in 2023 and played like their 3rd best player. Not saying that tuyz was bad, but had LOUD kept Pancada, 2023 would probably look a lot different
ok but cauanzin is also an insane player. Thats like saying if chronicle was replaced by woot then the team would function much better
skill wise, chronicle> and it's not even close
legacy wise we can have more of a conversation
I agree that single champs win adds more to ones legacy than single masters/lockin win, but to be honest, being the first player to win back to back internationals and also first to have 3 while rest of the world (outside of rest of fnc) had at most 1 is a legacy of it self + chronicle has mvp title on top of it
Mortadelo [#64]There is one factor people seem to forget
Chronicle has made the finals in 4 of of the 6 events he has attendedThe other 2 are a top 4 and a 7/8
Imo there are no other team achievements besides winning the tournament. Or at least the impact of those placements should be very low. That's just the way it is in every sport. Just as an example, no one congratulates Lebron for making so many finals in a row (in fact, they use his final losses to show he's not great which I don't agree with either). I guess it can show consistency, but yeah, second place is almost never talked about as team success due to how big of a gap there is between first and second place. Chronicle a hundred percent clears Sacy individually, however, legacy wise I think you can argue either way. Personally, I lean towards sacy because of the importance of Champs. Regardless, Chronicle is still the better player overall and this thread was just trying to show that Sacy should be talked about more as a great player.
AltonBu02 [#65]Imo there are no other team achievements besides winning the tournament. Or at least the impact of those placements should be very low. That's just the way it is in every sport. Just as an example, no one congratulates Lebron for making so many finals in a row (in fact, they use his final losses to show he's not great which I don't agree with either). I guess it can show consistency, but yeah, second place is almost never talked about as team success due to how big of a gap there is between first and second place. Chronicle a hundred percent clears Sacy individually, however, legacy wise I think you can argue either way. Personally, I lean towards sacy because of the importance of Champs. Regardless, Chronicle is still the better player overall and this thread was just trying to show that Sacy should be talked about more as a great player.
Only 1 of those finals he placed second, and ik what you mean nobody remembers second places. My point is more towards consistency, every time he makes it there you know he's gonna perform
Mortadelo [#67]Only 1 of those finals he placed second, and ik what you mean nobody remembers second places. My point is more towards consistency, every time he makes it there you know he's gonna perform
Your point about consistency makes complete sense. Even without proof of consistency, I already believe that Chronicle clears Sacy as an overall player just from how good he is every time I've seen him play ever since he was on Gambit. Compared to Sacy who performed amazing in 2023 Champions, but didn't perform as well in other tournaments. This thread was more to bring more attention towards Sacy's achievements as they are not talked about nearly enough as Chronicle's.
melodymur [#68]one can easily carry his team and the other can't
? Chronicle has never been regarded as the carry/best player of his team. He can have ocasionally pop off performances and top the leader board, but sacy has done that in his stint at loud as well. I guess Chronicle is most consistent with those performances overall though.
michaelisupset [#71]mechanically? no
consistency? no
angel pool diversity? no
util? maybe
comms/calling? maybe
experience? yea
in terms of achievements, who do you think wins?
AltonBu02 [#38]I'm not saying I agree if anything I think most people place too much of an emphasis on trophies but I digress + that doesn't apply to Sacy who played insane when Loud won and good when Sen won
bro just put chron in Sacys situation and Sen would be fire, hes doing a decent job but gets teamcarried most of the time, as when you would put Chronicle in the same situtation a lot of matches would be more decisive wins by far and some losses more closer, Loud 2023 had the best 3 players at the time in their Roster (Less, Aspas and Pancada) and Sen Madrid had a fresh JohnQT, Zekken hard entries and insane Tenz performances on smokes (and Zellsis), whereas Chron had insane performances in an alr super stacked team and is seen as one of the if not the best Flex player in the world
AltonBu02 [#72]in terms of achievements, who do you think wins?
oh my bad, then I think they’re pretty even but chronicle edges it out due to him being consistently at the top except in 2022
sklein [#63]skill wise, chronicle> and it's not even close
legacy wise we can have more of a conversation
I agree that single champs win adds more to ones legacy than single masters/lockin win, but to be honest, being the first player to win back to back internationals and also first to have 3 while rest of the world (outside of rest of fnc) had at most 1 is a legacy of it self + chronicle has mvp title on top of it
Also, call me crazy but hasn’t every champs tourney been the same format as the other masters besides this year? I’ve never really considered champs being higher than masters
AltonBu02 [#69]Your point about consistency makes complete sense. Even without proof of consistency, I already believe that Chronicle clears Sacy as an overall player just from how good he is every time I've seen him play ever since he was on Gambit. Compared to Sacy who performed amazing in 2023 Champions, but didn't perform as well in other tournaments. This thread was more to bring more attention towards Sacy's achievements as they are not talked about nearly enough as Chronicle's.
Fair enough
Huitzilopochtli [#73]bro just put chron in Sacys situation and Sen would be fire, hes doing a decent job but gets teamcarried most of the time, as when you would put Chronicle in the same situtation a lot of matches would be more decisive wins by far and some losses more closer, Loud 2023 had the best 3 players at the time in their Roster (Less, Aspas and Pancada) and Sen Madrid had a fresh JohnQT, Zekken hard entries and insane Tenz performances on smokes (and Zellsis), whereas Chron had insane performances in an alr super stacked team and is seen as one of the if not the best Flex player in the world
In Madrid, Sacy did his role and while he wasn't the 1st or 2nd option there have been majors that Chronicle has won where the same applies for him as well. I think you mean Loud 2022 by the way cause that was when they won Champs. And in that run, Sacy was putting up performances as insane as everyone else on the team. Just like Chronicle, he had insane performances in an already stacked team. Literally anyone on that team could have won the MVP. Around that time he was also seen as one of the best initiators in the world. I think you might need a refresher about Loud 2022 run, cause you are clearly underrating how much of an impact Sacy had in those games.
akami [#30]winning champions is different, much more teams, the teams are more developed than in the start of the year, A LOT more money involved as well, and the status
not to mention a good ol theme song that they make specifically for Champs every year
Enquiemmm [#57]One always carries his team
One always getting carried
It's not even close
Sacy did his role well and saved Sen with his clutches in Madrid and was insane in Champs 2022. Where did this narrative come from that Sacy always gets carried to tournament wins? And Chronicle was never the second option or above in any tournament he won besides the one he won with Gambit (where he was the second option behind nats). He does his role extremely well, but he is not carrying Fnatic.
skulduggery [#54]so you're saying the best team in 2021 was acend LMAO?
The real question to ask is if acend was the most accomplished team in 2021. And I would say yes they were. Results are the only thing that matter when it comes to success at the end of the day.
AltonBu02 [#70]? Chronicle has never been regarded as the carry/best player of his team. He can have ocasionally pop off performances and top the leader board, but sacy has done that in his stint at loud as well. I guess Chronicle is most consistent with those performances overall though.
funny how you already know who I am talking about without me having to say it
melodymur [#81]funny how you already know who I am talking about without me having to say it
yeah cause that's the overall narrative and what like half these people are saying in this thread. Chronicle carries his team to victories while Sacy gets carried. It's honestly wrong, but there's nothing I can do about it.
AltonBu02 [#82]yeah cause that's the overall narrative and what like half these people are saying in this thread. Chronicle carries his team to victories while Sacy gets carried. It's honestly wrong, but there's nothing I can do about it.
Well like you said before, Chronicle is most consistent during his performances, that's why people consider him better than Sacy, why do you think people praise aspas so much?
melodymur [#83]Well like you said before, Chronicle is most consistent during his performances, that's why people consider him better than Sacy, why do you think people praise aspas so much?
I think he's better than sacy as well, especially individually. But not enough people talk about Sacy especially with how much he's achieved. They think the gap between him and Chronicle is infinitely large when they are both stellar supports with a similar level of achievements. Chronicle is better and more consistent, but more love needs to be given to Sacy as he is one of the greats.
AltonBu02 [#84]I think he's better than sacy as well, especially individually. But not enough people talk about Sacy especially with how much he's achieved. They think the gap between him and Chronicle is infinitely large when they are both stellar supports with a similar level of achievements. Chronicle is better and more consistent, but more love needs to be given to Sacy as he is one of the greats.
I agree, even though he gets carried, he has brought a lot of impact in decisive rounds for Sentinels, he is pretty smart. Either way I am just answering the title
AltonBu02 [#77]In Madrid, Sacy did his role and while he wasn't the 1st or 2nd option there have been majors that Chronicle has won where the same applies for him as well. I think you mean Loud 2022 by the way cause that was when they won Champs. And in that run, Sacy was putting up performances as insane as everyone else on the team. Just like Chronicle, he had insane performances in an already stacked team. Literally anyone on that team could have won the MVP. Around that time he was also seen as one of the best initiators in the world. I think you might need a refresher about Loud 2022 run, cause you are clearly underrating how much of an impact Sacy had in those games.
i meant 2022 my mistake, i think he was good dont get me wrong but i think Chronicle had more moments and carried more games for fnatic/Gambit as Sacy did in all respect
Huitzilopochtli [#87]i meant 2022 my mistake, i think he was good dont get me wrong but i think Chronicle had more moments and carried more games for fnatic/Gambit as Sacy did in all respect
yeah i can agree with that. Chronicle had more consistent and overall better performance. Sacy mostly peaked in 2022 Champs and while he still was a pretty good player after, he wasn't as good.
michaelisupset [#71]mechanically? no
consistency? no
angel pool diversity? no
util? maybe
comms/calling? maybe
experience? yea
Stop with the util myth for once. FFS. Sacy isn't better at anything, they have the same level of experience and despite that sacy makes rookie level mistakes. This comparison is kinda shameless considering how much of an NPC sacy was in both his masters and champs win. Those two teams would have won regardless
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