Can the people who are on the other side of the argument, please at least consider the stats?
This is not about hate. Please just try to understand. It's not as straightforward as you think it is.
5
4/5 best players in GCC are not cis females
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I get it, but since men have a social advantage over females (more dudes play video games than girls and other things u get the point). Have marginalized genders compete against other men. Women are already at a disadvantage socially. Why to constrict them further? It's like both fighting for the smaller piece of the pie.
yeah there are factors outside of the players direct talents that are at play, my original comment was supposed to be mainly about physical traits, I worded it badly and understand that there is a bias against women and stereotypes that may lead women to play worse.
(this is a genuine question I'm not very informed about this) But also would these social disadvantages not also apply to trans players (such as florescent who receives a lot of hate for such a long time)
Listen, I'm honestly getting tired of seeing these arguments with disingenuous and bad faith people on both sides. Your argument is completely defeated when 4/5 of the best players in GC are trans. But that's really not the only case of this.
Look at league of legends, where solo queue can be an objective metric of skill free from discrimination, but in 10+ years, there hasn't been any women who could compete in even T3 leagues. The talent isn't there in an environment where discrimination isn't a thing.
Women's circuits have also already existed in Lol/CS for 20+ years, and it hasn't done anything to accomplish the stated goal of creating t1 ready women. Meanwhile there are infinitely less transwomen in esports, get the same or even more discrimination, yet have more success. This applies to VALORANT as well.
So people in these threads can lie to me, call me the scary words all they want, it's not going to change a non-hateful, rational person's mind. These conversations should be banned altogether.
Both reaction time and reflexes can be trained and become better no matter the gender, yes males have a slighter faster reaction time but its so minuscule that it doesn't affect game-play that much compared to other factors (such as social advantages as states by Harapan845 in #3) , esp considering that the trans players are taking estrogen.
The biggest factor in my opinion is definitely stress tolerance, logical thinking, and way of thinking, but there is true that there is some exclusions to these criteria. Male human tend to have high stress tolerance while on pressure, quick action while with questionable rationale, female human tend to have way more rationale thinking and decision making but often overthink and resulted careful while a tad bit slow and most buckle under pressure and stress, whatever riot decides what the solutions must not be half-assed. Why the fuck do we complicate ourself haizz
Do you have any study or research that points to this? I am open to reading and understanding your viewpoint. I am a big believer in the representation of all, especially marginalized communities. I believe that it should be done in open sports and not in a setting where the other competitors are already
themselves marginalized.
I worded my original comment badly, there are social advantages and other factors, but being a biological male does not give a direct physical advantage
“You play like a girl” is the research finding i used but there are plently other ones (multiple ones go by this title just choose the one you trust the most they all say similar things)
Skill and Performance Independence from Gender: Research indicates that performance in esports depends more on skill, practice, and mental acuity than on gender. For example, gender stereotypes have been shown to impact players' confidence and perception rather than their innate ability to perform competitively. Studies found that stereotype threat (negative stereotypes about women's performance) can impair female players' results, but this is a social effect rather than an innate performance limitation
Also on the other side there will be studies that "prove" that males preform better but those are sketchy and questionable. Im no pro in gender studies Im a biology major so my word isnt gospel and you should def do your own research
Thanks a lot, will look into it. Since, you are a bio major. Just asking cus you might have some relevant information. Do you think there are other factors; like adrenaline levels, or fight-or-flight responses, reflexes, reaction time, levels of concentration or things like that (I really have no clue which of them are measurable and not), playing a part here, which are not apparent on the physical level.
I'm not 100% confident but im pretty sure the advantages of these factors is negligible with coaching and the fact that its also mainly genetic, we can get a woman with inhuman reactions and concentration and a male with really slow reactions and difficulty concentrating.
coaching and fostering an environment to better the player is much more important (obv some players are more talented than others and can pick up things faster)
I mean an ideal coaching staff would make the perfect environment for their players but we don't live in an ideal world. I feel like environment is more of a social factor rather than a physical factor. Players who might grow up being abused or being put down might not be as confident as players who were brought up in a more positive upbringing. But those factors are not able to be measured as that would need the player to be honest which puts the research into question because its virtually impossible to 100% prove this.
Well I will disagree on a few things that I've done from my own research. Reaction time is a pretty big success factor in a lot of games, particularly FPS games. Men’s reaction times are simply better than women’s, better by enough of a margin to ensure that the high end female outliers are still going to get outcompeted by the men, it’s just genetics.
From PubMed, A review of the literature on the influence of gender on RT shows that in almost every age group, males have faster RTs as compared to females, and female disadvantage is not reduced by practice.
I don't think saying men are better than women in gaming has ever been a controversial thing to say until recently, it's been regarded as fact regarding FPS games.
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full
https://blog.mindcrowd.org/reaction-time-as-a-measure-of-brain-health-mindcrowd-study-findings/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20300032/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16350603/
Here's a few, I know there like a dozen different studies that I read through a few years ago, don't have time to look them all up right now
I dont mean to be that guy but study 3 is about reaction time during a sprinting contest at the beijing olympics and states "that sex difference in reaction time is likely an artifact caused by using the same force threshold in women as men"
study 1 states that the difference in spatial ability (which can be improved through coaching and training, which wasn't tested) is "[...]possible reasons for the current gender differences in individual spatial ability is social factors. For both children and adults, female individuals and male individuals are given different social expectations in social development [...]"
Studies 2&4 are good but they also don't emulate esports settings and use average poeple, which pro players simply aren't.
Do you know where I can read the 5th study? all i can find online are pay walled and id really like to know the methods and materials as its an interesting study.
can you link your study? from what I've read women tend to have better reaction times (negligible still though) when doing fine motor skills
Also i dont get the point of your last sentence? something being controversial or not has never made it ok or correct. It used to be ok to have slaves, it used to be controversial to think women deserved the right to vote. Being controversial or ok in the eyes of society never make something correct objectively
Well having slaves and women voting wasn't based in science/biology. Men having faster reaction times was a scientific study that was accepted for decades, but I've noticed it being controversial to say that now. If I say men are better at Counter Strike than women, I'll be considered sexist by some people. I know women are better than men at certain things, but I don't ever remember reaction time being one of them.
I linked a few related studies on the comment above yours.
stop crying you guys are whinning about that 24 hours
this is a marginalized gender championship since teams don't have the guts to tryout trans or cis women to their roster
florescent smurfs on that but teams don't tryout her, 95% teams wouldn't even tryout trans women because their players wouldn't like
and many people here only defends women when is to put trans women/nb down
It was so sad to see to G2 get demolished. People are arguing that there is no difference between cis gender and others but there is. The difference is in reaction time and movement speed. There are many research papers regarding this, if anyone wanna talk about proofs. Anyways, Riot said it's for marginalizaed group of people so fairplay a/c to rules, So congrats MIBR.
Jelly had the second worst rating on her team, you're incredibly misinformed. "movement speed" brother thinks you get a neon buff when you're a dude KEK. There are also a lot of research papers saying the exact opposite. Fact is, any of the physical advantages you are talking about are negligible when compared to the social advantage men have in videogames and esports specifically. This however is undone when you're a transwoman that doesnt even get the chance to tryout for any teams, because half of the pro's are still stuck in 1922. ALSO stop advocating for a group that very vocally is against anything you stand for. None of these cis-women want your help or opinion, as they do not agree with you. You're not saving anybody, you're just a hateful bigot weirdo.
I think you are the one who is misinformed, or you're stuck inside of an echo chamber. When you go on certain spaces on Twitter or Reddit, you might be led to believe differences in gender is a contentious topic, but in reality it isn't. Men and women are fundamentally different. Their brains are different, their bones are different, their bodies are different. Putting aside anything physical, there have been dozens of studies over the last couple of decades that prove men and women do not have the same brain.
Now I'm not sure what disadvantage you think trans people have, when trans people typically dominate female gaming spaces. Many of valorants top players in the female scene are trans. Are there societal factors as well to blame for women being behind? I won't doubt that. But to act like everyone is equal is an insane modern take. People are born taller, people are born stronger, people are born dumber. So to say anyone that thinks this is a insert scary word here (bigot, sexist, weirdo, hate filled NAZI!!!) is pure bad faith from you. Yeah there's hateful people that say a bunch of dumb shit, but some people have different beliefs based off of lived experiences and basic biology.
I don't have a problem with trans people because I have trans friends myself. But I have a big opinion of people like SRN, who have ex-girlfriends and speak disrespectfully about women. It's hard not to suspect that SRN didn't receive any estrogen injections, and just verbally expressed that he thought he was a woman, and I felt that riot should have increased settings for transgender people, such as how much estrogen they had to reach to play
No...its literally the correct take. If you dont like your spouse cheating on you, you probably shouldnt be in that relationship as is.
Anyways, MIBR playing well as a team boosts all of the stats of the teammates, so it is part of the argument. Also the take is even more correct as none of the gc-players agree with your opinion. So why forcefully change the ruleset against the opinion of the players just because some people who are mentally stuck in third grade want to have it that way?
None of the gc-players?
Couldn't there be females who don't agree with your view and don't express it, because I'm 100% sure if they do, their career is made for.
If you think that morals are completely individualized and have no correlation with the impact on society as a whole, then there'd be no value in to not being morally good in any sense, so it also goes against your behavior of trying to protect your side of the argument.
MIBRs success is not with the argument cus there is flor and jolinnaa too right? and the data is actually more biased toward cis women's success with Mibrs because Mibr has more cis females than trans.
Don't go for personal insults; we are not immature right?
nah i am immature when it comes to bigotry.
maybe put the second paragraph in google translate one more time.
Also yea they could exist, but that doesnt matter because there is an overwhelming VOCAL amount of support from the gc players attending, as you can see from all the tweets that have been made about it by the players. If they silently disagreed they'd be exactly that...silent.
I will simplify the argument for you:
I slap your child. Your neighbour watches. He doesn't do anything cus he's not the one getting slapped.
I keeping slapping your child. Neighbour keeps watching but doesn't like it and thus stop watching it.
Neighbour is a good person
Thats what your argument is, on a more dramatic scale.
because they have said so, multiple times.
Your argument is correct, but that doesn't matter because it's foundation is utter nonsense.
Moral evil being ignored doesn't change the outcomes that moral evil produces.
In this case:
A. there is no moral evil occurring as the players don't have an issue with non-cis people competing.
B. there is no moral evil as non-cis people simply aren't inherently better than cis-women.
C. You do care about being a hero, otherwise you wouldn't argue these points in this bigoted way.
D. no one wants you in the gc community, please leave.
This is my last message on this topic. You're weird. (also you are simply not as good at philosophy as you believe, please stop with these weird non-adjacent comparisons, thanks)
I'll do the funniest thing.
Let's assume I am a trans male, meaning I am a born female and now identify as male. Your criticism and personal attack are out of the window, right?
My foundation for argument is that there could be factors that make people born as males better at competitive sports than women, which results in females not getting the right representation; one of them definitely is social (but it is even worse for trans than females, so despite much worse social aspects, trans are overperforming).
So, what are the others?
LMAO what. entirely different situation, brother we are talking about a game. nobody is forcing you to watch it go get another hobby? Mels tweet is exactly what you should be doing. you got a problem w it dont watch it they dont care so why should you?
i based it off the stats like you said. Duelists get the higher rating due to kills makes sense but everyone else was putting insane numbers up, everyone but Jubs (senti) has a kd above 1.16, 4/5 players of MIBR are in top 10 via kd ratio. Noia and Sarahcat are in the top for most stats also, they are just the better players. so your title is wrong asf
I read her tweet just now, and that further goes to deepen my argument.
First there's bias for her own betterment and, just because she plays the game doesn't mean that her word is the gospel right? She has her own interests in her argument.
And I have my own vested interests in the betterment of women's representation in esports. If I'm a stakeholder, why would I not participate in conversation against the injustice?
The question is about what is morally good, not about specific situations.
Just because I don't interact with what's not morally good doesn't make it disappear, right?
There are definite advantages for men. Just a quick Google search will show you many research papers on how reaction time (mean fastest reaction times for men is 166 ms vs 189 ms for women. In addition, the women player base in esports is so low compared to men (less than 40 % just for Valorant, even lower if you consider the pro scene) that there is just no competition and area of growth for them. Women are already at a disadvantage socially. VLR stats prove further it that Riot is just crippling any growth left for women's esports. Last year it was just 1 trans in the top five, this year it is 4 out of the top five and next year maybe even more. If they want to make it fair why not let 'these' people compete with the gender they were assigned biologically? Ot make another tournament for these people.
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