And it’s all because ONE TIME someone faked being non-binary to compete in the league it automatically discredits EVERY SINGLE non binary person from competing. How moronic do you have to be to classify an entire group of marginalized people based off of one’s shitty actions. Not to mention there is legitimately zero biological advantage in gaming. If there was why are trans people in Iron sometimes and women in radiant like just say ur transphobic and misogynistic!
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GC Discourse on VLR is so braindead
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Yes, because you're the authority on what is and isn't important in FPS games.
Furthermore, that was in relation to long-term memory, not short-term memory--which is absolutely useless in an actual match.
Additionally, it was only in some complex visual-spatial tasks--not all of them. And among those tasks, not all of them would equally translate to an FPS (and whether they would translate to valorant specifically is another question)
I'd say that faster reaction speed is a good biological advantage https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3198384/
Hou Yifan peaked 2686 official FIDE rating in classical chess, making her a top 100 player in the world, and in the top 0.5% among Grandmasters
She also peaked 2704 official FIDE rating in blitz chess (5 minute games)
She was the 55th best player in the world.
that was 92 elo away from Fabiano Caruana, who was the US challenger to Magnus Carlsen for World Champion in 2018 and the #2 player in the world at that time--whom she also beat in an official game in 2017 https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1870992
just because some trans women are better than most most doesn't mean women on average are better than men.
Biological differences like reaction times or spatial awareness are inherent differences seen across the men and women, these are not conditional guarantees however. Just because there are women in Radiant doesn’t mean there aren’t average differences at play.
Using your logic then since a very very small amount of biological women can deadlift 250kg, this would mean that there aren't any biological differences in strength between the genders.
A review by Emanuele Coluccia called Gender differences in spatial orientation: A review
Reviews many differences cognitive studies between male and females. In this they explain the differences in spatial abilities such as mental rotation tasks and spatial orientation which are both relevant to fps games. This doesn’t include the differences in reaction times.
"While significant gender differences in spatial abilities consistently emerge, results concerning gender differences in spatial orientation skills are mixed"
"The influence of biological and socio/cultural factors is discussed as well as the hypothesis that gender differences are due to different strategies used to solve orientation tasks. The role of personality factors and the influence of spatial anxiety in orientation performance are also discussed."
From that exact same study btw
Even if there are personality differences that would slightly change how to solve orientation this would still mean men are greater in spatial abilities. Also there is no way to determine if it's cultural/personal factors at play here or if its biological but my assumption is biological. Also they clearly state there are significant differences and the only reason they say mixed is because 1 out of 4 studies found little differences whilst the others found significant or clear differences.
Yes, I'm just stating that on a neutral and inherent level there are biological differences, I never claimed that woman cannot transcend these disadvantages. All I'm stating is that there are biological differences, and obviously this isn't the biggest determinant of the disadvantages that woman face in esports since there are cultural and historical material conditions
Hormonal balance has been proven to affect differences in cognitive strategy to different tasks so this would be the biological factor if somehow you think genes or other biological differences don't play a role in cognitive strategy and this is assuming cognitive strategy is the only difference between the genders in spatial tasks.
"Which is not to say every man’s or woman’s brain looks the same. Our multitudinous genetic variations interact with some of our genes’ differential responsiveness to estrogens versus androgens. This complicated pinball game affects goings-on in at least some of the brain’s neural circuits and in whatever little piece of behavior each of these neural circuits manages."
"Bigger imaging studies and imaginative animal research now in the works promise to reveal much more about humanity’s inherent — although by no means uniform, and often not substantial — sex-associated cognitive differences and vulnerability to diseases.
Trying to assign exact percentages to the relative contributions of “culture” versus “biology” to the behavior of free-living human individuals in a complex social environment is tough at best. Halpern offers a succinct assessment: 'The role of culture is not zero. The role of biology is not zero.'"
There is no citation for this: "Many of these cognitive differences appear quite early in life. ‘You see sex differences in spatial-visualization ability in 2- and 3-month-old infants.’"
whats funny is that its always men crying about it when it doesnt affect them. acting like they care about women when majority dont and wont care about it.
Cause you care so much yet you shit on women saying they cant be as good. Like you dont even get the point of GC, just look up "Geguri" s story from overwatch. Was a top tier player. Go read what happened when she started winning and how people accused her of cheating. then struggled to find a team cause men didnt want women in their team. Or just go read the long mel tweet that she wrote about all this, you will understand why it exists.
And if it bothers you,, just stop whinning about it and ignore it? it does not affect you
- I’m a trans woman, and women can definitely be as good as men (i didn’t mean to make this post as a we shouldn’t call out the transphobia and misogyny in the scene and just stop), and I 100% agree with what meL said. I’m unfamiliar with Geguri but I also recall Rebels Gaming was Co-ed last year and found some success (but ultimately fell short and was blamed on the woman by many fans)
Additionally just look at Vania--she was owning Benjyfishy and frying against all the coed teams (some of which had 3 VCT players on them) during the latest Off-season tournament with G2
I mean, she definitely mogged this A1mly guy
https://www.vlr.gg/413193/g2-gozen-vs-nasr-ignite-vct-off-season-spotlight-series-2024-uf
"Not to mention there is legitimately zero biological advantage in gaming"
This is objectively wrong, and quite frankly a modern American concept.
The average male response time is twenty three milliseconds faster than your average woman. This is a biological advantage in things such as sports, overall hand-eye coordination and general emergency response moments.
The science is pretty clear on this. Males are better at aiming at targets both near and far while also having much better spatial awareness. There are structural differences in the brain that likely account for this.
There have been several unbiased studies from PubMed and other sources that prove what I'm saying. Men have an advantage in gaming just like they have advantages in physical sports.
And no, I'm not saying that makes someone a better person. And no, I'm not saying I'm better than most women at video games. With time and effort there are women who can be excellent at video games. That's obvious. But if we're speaking about the highest level of gaming, there's a reason it's all guys. It's scientific and was widely accepted until 'Americanism' started spreading lies.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2019.00128/full
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022096500925943
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40296069
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22390656/ https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026141
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5999374/
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284542074_Gender_and_Gaming_A_Literature_Review
You illiterate dumbfuck, you're not even reading your own sources.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5999374/
"Reaction time
The ANOVA on RT with angular disparity as the within-participant factor and sex as the between-participant factor showed a main effect on angular disparity: F(7, 196)=73.66, P<0.001, ηp2=0.725. A t-test for paired samples showed that the RTs were higher on each consecutive angular disparity up to 180° (P≤0.001) and lower on each consecutive angular disparity from 180° up to 315° (P<0.001). Because of multiple testing, Bonferroni correction was chosen and the significance standard was set to α=0.007. For the factor sex, there was no main effect of sex on RT: F(1, 28)=0.287, P=0.596, ηp2=0.01 and no significant interaction between both factors: F(7, 196)=0.487, P=0.591, ηp2=0.02.
Accuracy rate
The ANOVA on the accuracy rate with angular disparity as the within-participant factor and sex as the between-participant factor showed a main effect on angular disparity: F(7, 196)=24.59, P<0.001, ηp2=0.468. A t-test for paired samples showed the accuracy rate to be higher for the angular disparity of 45° compared with 90°, 135° compared with 180°, 225° compared with 270°, and for the angular disparity of 270° compared with 315° (all P<0.001). All other consecutive comparisons did not show any significance. Because of multiple testing, Bonferroni correction was chosen and the significance standard was set to α=0.007. There was no main effect of sex on the accuracy rate: F(1, 28)=0.114, P=0.738, ηp2=0.004, and no significant interaction between both factors: F(7, 196)=1.130, P=0.346, ηp2=0.039.
Eye-tracking data
Fixation numbers
The ANOVA for the number of fixations with angular disparity as the within-participant factor and sex as the between-participant factor showed a main effect on angular disparity: F(7, 196)=80.71, P<0.001, ηp2=0.742. A t-test for paired samples showed the number of fixations to be higher on each consecutive angular disparity up to 180° (P<0.001) and lower on each consecutive angular disparity from 180° up to 315° (P<0.001). Because of multiple testing, Bonferroni correction was chosen and the significance standard was set to α=0.007. There was no main effect of sex on fixation numbers: F(1, 28)=0.048, P=0.829, ηp2=0.002, and no significant interaction between both factors: F(7, 196)=0.34, P=0.754, ηp2=0.012."
Also 2 of the sources you cite are studies on rats.
Istg these fucking dropouts googling "gender differences in gaming" and copy pasting anything they see, then pretending to be academics drives me crazy
look at urself bro ur actually fuming over this ,u read over all of them and picked one study out of the like 10 i linked and pointed out that there wasnt a difference in 1 specific task when theres like 5 other studies there (DONE ON HUMANS) where males performed better in spatial and problem solving related tasks,pls stop coping lol
ur literally in denial and cognitive dissonance, I know u read all of them cause u mention about studies done on rats which is actually a pretty common way to compare to humans in tests cause they are very similar to humans in many ways,and u still just refuse to mention all the other studies that came to the result that men do have superior spatial and problem solving abilities,pls calm down and stop deflecting its not that deep bro
No, you're genuinely braindead if you think rats are comparable to humans. Studies on rats only lead us to hypotheses on how similar humans can be, never conclusive results.
Also, if your idea of winning an argument is spamming as many articles (that you didn't read) as you want until you reach a point where nobody will bother actually reading them, then sure you can pretend you're smart
And those hypotheses have been confirmed by the studies i just linked to u lol,but u still refuse to talk about that,its actually sad u are genuinely this pissed off about arguing on vlr,i hope u dont take this too serious,i know u were so horny to prove me wrong u def read trough all of them and that 1 singular study i didnt even read fully is ur only argument against all the others lol,dont start saying ur "too bothered" to read them all now lol
yes absolutely even tho i know u atleast opened all of them with how mad u are about this subject but lets pretend u just didnt bother to look at the studies that completely contradict ur weak argument
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022096500925943
(right there as soon as u open it)
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different/
"Men, on average, can more easily juggle items in working memory. They have superior visuospatial skills: They’re better at visualizing what happens when a complicated two- or three-dimensional shape is rotated in space, at correctly determining angles from the horizontal, at tracking moving objects and at aiming projectiles."
ur pathetic trying to sound so educated and smart but still too tied to ur emotions to admit when ur wrong and ur saying i pretend to be some intellectual for linking studies
You're gonna have to give me a quote on the first one: I don't have access to it
As for the second:
"Trying to assign exact percentages to the relative contributions of “culture” versus “biology” to the behavior of free-living human individuals in a complex social environment is tough at best. Halpern offers a succinct assessment: 'The role of culture is not zero. The role of biology is not zero.'"
The author admits a degree of error that can be attributed to socio-cultural factors, and not innate biology on the nature of their findings. There's no absolute certainty
Too much ego to admit I'm wrong? I'm responding to everything you're saying in a timely fashion, please stop projecting your insecurities. I can see why you insist that rats are identical to humans if you're basing it off of what you see in the mirror every day
I’ve watched enough of Vania to know any “Biological” difference argument is horse shit.
The most impactful reason as to why we don’t have examples of T1 women yet is simply because the genre isn’t catered to girls and the competitive community is hostile; a smaller talent pool and less opportunities. How a player like Pancc nearly ascended speaks to this.
At the same time, why would you risk a secure spot on a GC roster when T2 is so unstable — even if you were undoubtably good enough for it? It’ll be another two years before we see the first woman in T1 and probably four years until we see a proper Co-ed roster with trophy aspirations.
I hope the spotlight off-season tournament becomes a staple considering how “normal” we consider all male teams in a medium totally unrestricted by categories of weight class and biological sex. I look forward to Valorant’s first Geguri.
"The most impactful reason as to why we don’t have examples of T1 women yet is simply because the genre isn’t catered to girls and the competitive community is hostile"
Let's be fair, this is a subjective take. The community is 'hostile' to EVERYONE is we're talking about toxicity. I don't care what gender you are, you getting fucking HARRASSED in fps games. What we're talking about isn't an environmental issue. If you're looking at VALORANT just from eye test alone you can see the level of play is lower in gc. That can't be due to hostility.
The community is hostile to everyone yes — but to varying degrees and expression. I might receive shit for a whiff but I won’t have teammates throw games for simply talking in voice chat nor will I receive insults about my likely future performance because of my sex. It’s also less likely that teams will accuse me of cheating or avoid me in their roster builds because I won’t be an “unknown” variable to the otherwise “all-male” dynamic.
Women are often heckled or badgered over nothing and the occasional asshole just thinks being sexist is funny. I’ve also heard first hand accounts of friends receiving threats of rape and stalking from tilted players. Even then, Valorant has the largest Female : Male player distribution in the genre, at nearly 3-4x that of CS. A lot of them are new and it takes time to build a talent pool while a lot of male players have prior experience in FPS titles — this is a uniquely environmental problem.
My point isn’t that toxicity makes women worse players than men. It’s that it wholly turns away many casual female players from investing in the time and effort to improve and compete, resulting in a stunted talent pool. As a result, the pool of talent for men is so much larger even if the fraction of eligible talent is the same.
Simply observing that the level of play in GC is lower doesn’t actually help you in drawing any conclusions. It’s merely an observation.
I do think you've made many excellent points about casual female gamers trying to climb the ranks of gaming and the stigma around women in gaming, but I don't believe that the lack of women in T1 esports is due solely to hostility. Toxicity does stop certain women from improving, but what about the women who are already being coached and in their own leagues/circuits?
You can make arguments that discrimination applies in CS/Val cuz of voice chat, but let's look at a game like league of legends, where solo queue can be an objective metric of skill free from discrimination, but in 10+ years, there hasn't been any women who could compete in even T3 leagues. For some reason, the talent isn't there in an environment where discrimination isn't a thing.
Women's circuits have also already existed in Lol/CS for 20+ years, and it hasn't done anything to accomplish the stated goal of creating t1 ready women. Meanwhile there are infinitely less transwomen in esports, get the same or even more discrimination, yet have more success. This applies to VALORANT as well. The only GC player you hear any pro talking about being in a tier 1 team is flor (who I do believe has the skill for t1).
Now I'm not going to sit here and debate reaction times and whatnot, but I believe that women aren't successful in esports due to mentality and attitude. Judit Polgár is by far the most successful woman ever in chess (peaking Rank 8 world) she said that she practiced for 6hrs+ a day, while all the other women weren't serious about chess and instead were interested in careers that were more fulfilling. I think there's a lot of women that simply don't have the motivation and aggression that men do to make it into T1 esports (where longevity isn't guaranteed).
Esports is cut-throat, aggressive. You have to be dedicated to it, and while there's been women who have found success (Hafu in WoW and Hearthstone) women on average haven't shown as high of a ceiling as men. Some want people to believe it's due solely to discrimination, but that doesn't seem to be the whole story.
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