why c9 vs sen is way closer than you think

#1

Luck_

sen vs c9 is way closer than you think, maybe even SEN better

zekken>leaf (DUELIST)
tenz<yay (CHAMBER/JETT)
dephh=vanity (IGL)
pancada>vanity (SMOKES)
sacy>xeppaa (assuming xeppa plays initiator)
dephh<zellsis (FLEX)
zekken>zellsis (DUELIST)
SicK>qpert (6MAN)
Syyko=mCe (COACH)

i tried to include many roles bc mostly c9 have problems with zellsis and xeppaa roles and dephh is more flex igl than smokes igl??? kinda trying to be more inclusive

SEN: 5>
C9: 2>

this isn't really accurate considering the differences between some players, like yay is >>>> tenz, etc but this is basically saying that you shouldn't sleep on sen. they have some great players but sen is gonna be insane

#2

nastyblaster

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leaf > zekken

#15

romanval

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zekken was shitting on fpx at champs while leaf was eating more. wake up

#17

PuGGey

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not cool. L body shaming

#18

romanval

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L zekken shaming he is better with more lan exp at a younger age

#21

kucD

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I think they have equal lan experience

#22

trevonnnlol

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they have the same amount of lan match wins rip

#26

Delusional_SA_fan

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?? no they dont.

#28

trevonnnlol

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Sorry 1 more

#62

Gamer1234

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Leaf is only like 19 lol its not like he's some boomer

#99

theogblazen

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people forget this guy was falsely accused of cheating in a game everyone claims is harder than Valorant LMAO

#106

keener1600

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it is harder

#67

adam99

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leaf>>>>> zekken

https://www.vlr.gg/43776/cloud9-blue-vs-xset-champions-tour-north-america-last-chance-qualifier-lr3

https://www.vlr.gg/70059/xset-vs-cloud9-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-w2

https://www.vlr.gg/77797/xset-vs-cloud9-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-lr3

#82

kaibe8

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Just because he used to be better doesn't mean he is now, valorant is a fast changing e-sport.
Besides the guy is just 17, of course he's gonna get better over time.

#91

brobeans

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goldfish brain. leaf is insane just wait

#115

kqly_was_framed

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Brobeans was right

#117

brobeans

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Wtf

#3

RickyIndian

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it’s not close

SEN are so much better than C9

#4

lorenzopajaroFC

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Cloud9 has absolutely nothing special besides yay, they can MAYBE be top tier if leaf plays his best but either way I have absolutely no faith in vanity

#78

FNEGGS

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vanity has never lost to sen or xset while igling for c9. how much faith do you have in dephh?

#84

lorenzopajaroFC

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The amount I’d give to someone who actually managed to qualify to an international tournament in 2022

#97

ppmcpoopoo

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thats not vanity's fault tho they lost their coach and fucking xeta halfway through the season. before that c9 looked like top 3 NA up there with optic.

Vanity made to Lan igling with 2 different rosters. It was after he came into c9 that they got into champs last year.

Like the more I think about it the more stupid yall are

#104

lorenzopajaroFC

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Lololol bro’s so bad they decided to put yay as igl so that he could copy FNS’s strats. This team is gonna fail, HARD

#87

Jano0310

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Optic has never lost to C9 with Vanity as their IGL, but they did lose to XSET

#102

theogblazen

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they also lost to Guard? so now Valyn is also a better IGL? So tired of these bs ass arguments "well this team beat them so these players are better" actually wild

#5

horse69

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sen>c9, but horse clears

#8

Jano0310

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horse?

#24

horse69

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horse > yay, tenz, c9, sen

#56

YeaUrMum

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Bro thought he was funny

#6

carterwplays12

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tenz is best jett

#9

Luck_

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carterwplays12
Country: United States
Registered: October 20, 2022
Last post: October 20, 2022 at 11:40 PM
Posts: 1

#48

MitiYa

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maybe he just found out about the vlr.gg website and just registered, everyone has done that

#50

Luck_

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yeah maybe but maybe not a very smart thing to say as your very first post

#57

Monspeet

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true bro, the but hurt ppl gonna swoop in to save the day from the comment

#27

Jano0310

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Its more like TenZ is entry Jett and yay is OP jett

#7

Strafe7

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Saying C9 is not flexible is the most stupid thing i think I've ever heard. They are the most flexible team in the Americas league probably. You can't say anything about flexibility on C9 when sen literally has Tenz...

#10

Luck_

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when did i say they aren't flexible? they are very flexible. they can all (besides yay and kinda vanity) play multiple roles. the other 3 are all flex lmao

#66

Strafe7

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You said they have role problems with zellsis and xeppaa, if a team is ultra flexible, how can they have role problems?

#77

Luck_

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Their roles overlap. They are flexible, I just don’t know what role they will play. I assume that zellsis will flex and xeppaa will play initiator??? Idk though

#83

PigExe

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lmao this logic

#11

hiddenplace

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I'd really like to know the reasoning for so much C9 hype. Yay, yeah, but the rest is nothing special. This core made ONE international LAN a year ago and had a decent run but nothing impressive. Suddenly everyone thinks it's a super team? Nah

SEN and NRG look much stronger

#12

ColdWKey

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I think NRG and SEN have a higher chance of winning a trophy than C9 ngl

#16

BoF7ooM

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Yup exactly, they look the same as 100T. NRG and SEN is more of a super team. NRG has the whole Optic backbone with a superstar EMEA duelist, but a downgraded smokes player (Anything from top 3 in the world is a downgrade no disrespect to sOm) and Ardiis is basically as good as a replacement for yay as in 2022, him cryo and yay were the best chambers itw.

#23

trevonnnlol

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and the core was heavily praised by many pros, NA league is just stacked I think itll come down to the wire at the end of the day with alot of these teams

#92

brobeans

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that’s bc y’all don’t watch NA matches. c9 consistently makes podium for vct. they just needed 1-2 new good players

#13

conman

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I disagree with a few of these, and even still, it's hard to judge rosters on a one to one comparison. Sen has elite talent coming over from LOUD but they also have one of the biggest question marks in TenZ who hasn't been playing at a top level for over a year. Also if we assume Zekken is playing Raze then TenZ will have to play Chamber which he has 8 matches on and hasn't really done the best at (it doesn't really fit his style). With C9 it feels like there will be very few confusion on the roles and I think it's safe to say C9 has a much higher floor than SEN

#30

Jano0310

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Even yay on his first matches with Chamber, didn't have as much impact as right now because he was still getting used to the agent, just like TenZ at LCQ, but Syyko and Kaplan knows how to set a Chamber to success, i trust them

I agree that C9 has a higher floor than SEN because they already havee a set core with Leaf, Xeppaa and Vanity, they are adding a couple players with yay and Zellsis, and Sen is a whole new roster, just keeping TenZ, but adding 4 new players and a new coaching staff, i think it will take them time to fully develope but hope they are ready for Kickoff

Im excited to see both teams

#14

MourninggStarr

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all this just to get clapped by 100T Cryo 🥶🥶🥶

#19

Ryuzaki

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I have mixed feelings about the Sen roster. Sacy without Saadhak feels awkward. Sick is back and I love that. Sen might do good, it would be nice to see them perform.

#20

trevonnnlol

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the thing that bothers me the most about VLR is their reasoning for saying coaches are good, people will say potter and sykko r good coaches when theyve been on their respective orgs for years and only had results after 1 roster move and then suddenly theyre "good"

#25

Anubhav

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Tenz can be equal to yay if he hits his peak again and tenz is a lanianimal

#29

upperrad9

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Yay is not only a mechanical God he also have good gamesense and knows how to stay calm and not get overheated , things which tenz needs to improve on

#31

AceGX

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No way a dude with brain would say zekken is better than leaf 😭🤣☠️

#35

Spec

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IDK if you're a troll or not, but hop off of Leaf's gonads for one second and use your brain for a sec (I know its hard).

Zekken pounded at every tourney he went to this year (even when they went 0-2) while leaf quite literally disappeared this year; losing to random teams like lg and not even putting up a respectable performance.

You are literally meat riding another man's year old self from a completely different meta. You are comparing a potential top ten player to a random dude on the street.

Also, Flair

#36

trevonnnlol

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he did good against leviatan and xerxia

#38

Spec

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Leaf did only good against barely tier 1 NA shitters. Also, maybe I shouldn't have even indicated a SLIGHT lean on statistical performance, cause that wasn't my angle.

My angle was that zekken is literally the best in NA in his role and is proven to be so with the next best being victor. To compare someone who can go bar for bar with the best teams in the world with leaf is outrageous.

But I guess if you look at it from a non-space creation, taking smart fights, impact frags, and being one of the two people that carried xset, then I guess you're right. (Also, why are we ignoring domestic stats for zekken and not leaf)

#47

trevonnnlol

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i like how u say people have selective memory but you forget all of the matches (including against xset) he farmed in the first quarter of the year, leaf had one of the highest first duel attempts in NA and still had insane stats, zekken has closer entry stats to dephh than leaf for legit the whole year, zekken isnt a HARD ENTRY like leaf was. theyre both very good dont get me wrong but I think youre overvaluing zekken and undervaluing leaf

#51

Spec

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the thing is Leaf isn't fucking bad. He's actually great (as you said he was a monster in stage 1), but he and the rest of the C9 core obviously haven't adjusted to the meta very well. I feel like zekken just plays smarter currently while leaf was leagues better before which is why I bring of the point of adaptability. I mean he couldn't even play chamber to a high degree when his team needed him to, and I'm supposed to rate him higher than zekken who performs on every role that is given to him.

#73

adam99

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yeah leaf is bad
https://www.vlr.gg/77797/xset-vs-cloud9-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-lr3

https://www.vlr.gg/70059/xset-vs-cloud9-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-w2

https://www.vlr.gg/43776/cloud9-blue-vs-xset-champions-tour-north-america-last-chance-qualifier-lr3

#37

AceGX

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Leaf seemed like he disappeared cauz he got out of his comfort zone and had to play agent like chamber which doesn't even fit his playstyle
They lost to some unknown org because they literally had curry in their team
Leaf can shit on ur favourite org and your favourite player and that includes zekken who he has shitted on couple of times
And yes I'm enjoying the meat riding

Plus, flair Deez nuts on ur face

#39

trevonnnlol

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idk man people act like he wasnt up there for top player for a whole year, they only fell off after they got curry lol

#41

AceGX

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Bro nobody even said shit about zekken until champs and they acting like idk he has been the s1mple of Valorant

#44

Spec

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bro, people have been talking about zekken for fucking forever, you just haven't been listening. They been talking bout him even when xset were still getting fucking fourth all the time which seems to be C9's place nowadays

#42

unknown_trash

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Leaf was considered a world class duelist at champions 2021 but because c9 hasn't won after getting curry, the blame naturally shifts to c9s star player for not performing, which really isn't fair because he only fell off a bit in lcq.

#43

Spec

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A good comparison that I like to make with C9 is Guild. Do you remember how they looked really good at copenhagen, but got eviscerated at lcq? It's similar to C9 cause they picked up a literal bot called Yacine. The difference is that despite this, the actual good players on the team were still getting impact despite a single player change. Why this so called beast of a player can't do the same is really intriguing.

Also, why are you straight up lying, Leaf wasn't even the main person that played chamber on the team. C9 obviously saw that he couldn't play chamber for shit, but it barely changed jackshit. You actually have selective memory.

#45

unknown_trash

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Ok leaf severely underperformed at lcq and even he knows that, but saying he is absolute trash based on that alone isn't fair since he was still putting up numbers even when curry was on the team. He was almost always going positive even as the primary entry. Also the reason why guild did so well is because they had a primary duelist role filled in by a bot. Not an initiator that's supposed to set up all your plays for you.

#52

Spec

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My internet is cutting off and on cause australia,

Also, why do people just not look at what curry is doing initiator wise? it seems a lot of people just assume his support utility is ass when in reality, he had a higher kast than some big names for potential franchising like eeiu. I personally felt that despite being absolute garbage, curry was still setting up leaf to a reasonable degree. The problem in my mind was leafs poor individual non-macro decision making as of late. It's probably because of a huge meta shift not treating him right, but there were honest to god problems with his game even if he was going plus (against way worse opponents than zekken)

Also, leaf is good, I'm just saying he ain't diffing anybody especially zekken. Maybe I'm underrating him idk.

(Also, the guild players swapped their roles around to make space for him and still pounded)

#32

Shanvel

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I really don't understand wtf you guys talking about.. Xset has never won against C9 in the past - dephh and zekken have been so quiet in the past matchups vs the core c9...plus yay is a definite upgrade to Mitch.. zellsis has great frag potential and is a very good flex who can play well both as a sen or an init. I would have cared for the current Sen roster if Marved was pulled in instead of pancada.. Again pulling in star studded pros is not gonna help.. 100T is a better team than Sen and even 100T won't win against C9

#107

spookmeister

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100T won against c9 plz fix thank you

#109

shady_XV

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100T crushed C9, 3-0

#33

AceGX

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Everytime they faced each other leaf alone diffed your whole ass xset ,stop overhyping shit ,dephh never won against c9 and you still gonna say he's better than vanity, just log out dude

#40

unknown_trash

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Why was C9 so good at the beginning of this year, even against the xset roster and optic roster that went to champions then? It can't have just been xeta carrying the team. The core of C9 is extremely good, they just haven't been able to shine when they had their initiator player downgraded suddenly. I'm not saying C9 is the best in the Americas league but they are definitely contenders especially since they have upgraded both of their weak links from this year

#46

Z3ROx1013

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Imagine telling every one zekken>leaf while leaf shit on your whole xset core when they were up against each other. Depph never won a match against c9 neither
Your coach. And somehow according to sen delusional fans they are the best coaches and igl LMAO. Sacy and pancada are great upgrade to sen no doubt.but being so delusional that deph and zekken are better than leaf and vanity. Where as leaf considered a top 5 duelist , and vanity is the 2nd best igl in NA after pujan.

#49

Luck_

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wtf
zekken is the best duelist in NA no fucking doubt
leaf hasnt played on lan since last year and he was killing it but zekken was diffing the best in the world. its been so long since we have seen leaf play, so why would you say he is better? both of them are great but i think it is safe to say zekken is better because we have seen him play insane recently. players change a lot. TenZ used to be the best itw, now he isn't anywhere near as good. this isnt players getting worse, it is others getting better. leaf is insane but who knows. while xset is off at champions and zekken is proving himself as one of the best duelists itw, leaf and his team are sitting at home. zekken has proved himself, and we won't know how leaf will go compared to him, until next year. for now, it is safe to say that zekken is better

#59

Z3ROx1013

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Bro said zekken is best duelist💀 ohk zekken is best duelist dephh is best igl sen is best in NA its pointless to argue

#71

GreyDaze

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Flair

#53

Tanzim

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Sen are quite a bit better than C9, C9 is just yay and vanity, also zellsis if he plays duelist but unlikely, but all sen players are best at their roles except for maybe tenz cuz yay > tenz

#54

Barre

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Im gonna enjoy when people realize that Leaf is top 5 player and will sometimes even do better than Yay.

#58

Luck_

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There is a fine line between a hot take and being straight delusional lmao

#93

Barre

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??

#112

Barre

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You good bro?

#113

hanafuuji

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blud really bookmarked a half year old thread 💀

#114

Luck_

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lmaoooo holy

#116

weakest_marved_enjoyer

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LMAO

#55

saltbox

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in a nutshell the reason is "because sentinels no longer is the team we've gotten used to shitting on". They have two of their former players left and one of them is the 6th man; it's a completely different team

#60

Ernno

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It´s no close, Sentinels is a way better team lmao this should be obvious

#61

Hinazuki

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"Zekken> leaf" LEAF DESTROY ZEKKEN IN EVERY CATEGORY

#64

Luck_

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We will see about that

#63

aylez

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you cant just compare players and have that decide which team is better. that isnt how it works lmao.

#65

Luck_

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I said it wasn’t accurate but my point is everyone is really overhyping c9 just bc they have yay like they compare yay to everyone else just like I compare sen players to c9 it’s not accurate no but it’s a team game not yay v 5. No hate to the rest of the team but sentinels players are better iverall and yay won’t be able to carry

#79

aylez

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you just proved my point. “SEN’s players are better overall so they are better.”

team chemistry matters, igl ability and improving gameplay/mechanics/teamwork matters, coaching matters, playing off of teammates matters, flexibilty and ability to adapt when something goes wrong matters, there are endless things that matter that are not based on individual player’s raw skill.

#89

Luck_

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So why are we overhyping c9? They have good mechanics but what about their chemistry igling starts and all that. Coach is very close, igl is also + sen’s better players etc. it’s impossible to tell rn but people are overhyping them so much when sen have better players, arguably better coach, arguably better igl, you can’t argue about c9 igl, coach and stuff bc it is very close between the two teams in that are but sen dominates in another area. Let’s say for example that 2 people tied for first in the 100m heat, then one of them came first in the 800m and the other came 3rd. Clearly from this, the one that came first is better but at teh same time we don’t really know and we won’t really know until next year so let’s see

#68

parasite

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vlr logic

#69

no1xetafan

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Stopped reading at Zekken >leaf
0/8 bait

#70

complx_11

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SEN decided to go down the import route so they're automatically worse in my mind

#72

GreyDaze

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They have better players. Only vanity and yay are better than their counterparts. Even dephh igl is slightly better than vanity's

#75

no1xetafan

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if Dephh is such a good igl why did ayrin call ct half

#76

GreyDaze

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Coz ayrin was better for that half lol. It's not like dephh didn't know any defense igling. Also sacy is there as the 2nd caller. Their strats this time are going to be fine. So is their firepower

#74

Adi69LassiSeller

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Bro said yay> tenz. Dummy Delusional so fkin delusional hahaha fker funny

#80

gonfreacks

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I never see Zekken stand out againts Leaf in any match XSET vs C9. and in overall this year if we see the stats of tournament VCT stage 1 and 2 where they compete in the same tournament, Leaf is still better than zekken...

#81

Typical_NA_Fan

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I think he is predicting that Zekken got better from international LAN experience and Leaf did not
not an unreasonable idea...

#85

gonfreacks

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Nah its unreasonable when you said someone is better than the other one just because one of them did not have any chance to prove in LAN...we should just stick to the fact that Leaf is still better than Zekken (based on the stats rn) until they meet in LAN....

#86

Danny

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Leaf > Zekken

also it's important to mention that Sentinels will be implementing a brand new system with new coaches and a language barrier

whereas C9 had an already successful system made and they simply upgraded firepower + coaching staff

#88

thatpower

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i feel like people forgot how good c9 was with xeta

#90

DrudaL

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If tenz using brimstone
Easy 13-0 for sentinel

#94

Qwertyy

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how did i miss this thread

C9 owns SEN

#95

AceGX

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also leaf owns Lekken

#98

cwoisso

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couldn't even take a map off 100t

#101

weakest_marved_enjoyer

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100t already has theyre roles figured out and they wont improve MUCH when vct comes around. not saying they wont be good, but this 100t team is champions team -will +cryo. everyone has the same role. C9 is still figuring out roles for everyone

#96

Luck_

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bro this was from months ago 😂😂

#100

weakest_marved_enjoyer

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why do ppl think the "x>x" argument works?

#103

KyLZi

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We may not act like cavemen any more but we all still have the same brain as cavemen.

#105

Luck_

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it is individually
do it doesnt really
i was being braindead i was bored in class and i wanted something to do LOL

#108

koromast

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i remember doing it once on a reply section of paper rex vs optic because of a shitpost about breaking bad vs some other shit meme comparison with scores, after that i saw a lot of mfers doing it but i cant tell if they did it earlier and i was outdated with the meme or if they really thought i was serious and started to do it literally.

#110

Faraday

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So what would you rather use to estimate the teams?

#111

weakest_marved_enjoyer

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i mean you can get an idea on whos a better team with "x>x." but its not gonna tell you the better team everytime. coaching staff, team chem, playstyles of all players, and the roles the players are best at are some things to look in to. you could say, for example:
yay>x
tenz>x
cryo>x
cned>x
jampii>x
those 5 players on a team would look better than any other team, but if they went against a team with good players that all have mastered different roles, then the yay team would probably lose. pure talent can only take you so far.