if old nth and new nth were to meet today who would win?
OLD NTH ROSTER: Seoldam , TENNN , meiy , SugaZ3ro , astell
NEW NTH ROSTER: Meteor , BlackWiz , JoXJo , xnfri , Deliary
0
old nth vs new nth
posted in
General Discussion
Comments:
Threaded
Linear
Average result randi.
Niko never won a major that means he is trash?
Seoldam would shit on 70% top duelists in the world and you would know that if you watched him play in APAC LCQ. Team performance and individual performance is very different. As a team Nth were unable to beat CR but Seoldam was considered to be one of the best jetts in the world from valorant day 1.
Man never watched APAC LCQ and thinks he knows stuff.
"Lakia is so good why he is not in DRX roster" Simple because they don't like changing the core roster. Same is true for so many teams in Asia, they just don't like changing their core players.
They hardly scrimmed with Lakia after signing him. Explain why would they do that? Especially since Lakia has placed higher in international tourneys than DRX ever has.
"Seoldam isnt even good on KR or JP" You don't watch tournament games LMAO.
By that logic, even Loud is better than Optic cause they beat them in bo2.
If a team beats one in a bo2 and vice versa in a bo3. It should be undisputed bo3 win matters more.
The guard were having a honeymoon period, also it was not an elimination match, both teams qualified.
Also, I don't think you need to downplay FS here. APAC was objectively better than JP in year 1.
FS themselves had a good chunk of star players. Moreover, finals are bo3s because it is an undisputed fact that it brings out the best teams on average.
my bad, yes I meant bo3 and bo5.
Your argument might be a significant factor but it's tough to say which factor is more dominant.
Because the team who wins also learns a lot about the team that loses.
At the same time map bans are much more impactful in Bo3s than Bo5s. A lot of times players pop off on certain maps which cause them to win a map even though they should have lost those.
DRX vs PRX on haven was a good example. Jingg popped off in Haven but they lost their map picks.
It's all about testing the teams to the limits, Bo5s just reduce the chances of these random factors resulting in a team's victory or loss.
Old. Seoldam was the best Jett in Japan (and probably even all of Asia) at one point - statistics wise and eye-test wise.
He also essentially taught ZETA how to use the shotgun.
TENNN and SugarZ3ro are insane, they are top 10/top 5 in their role worldwide right now.
Meiy was even better than those 2 and him + Astell are carrying CR rn.
FS only qualed to Champs because they won the rematch - Nth beat them already. Nth 100% would have done better than FS at Champs. It's like how OpTic lost to Guard Stage 1.
Current Nth have a better coach though, and Meteor was a really good pickup to fill Seoldam's spot.
not best jett in all of asia, johnolsen, buzz and f0rsaken (if he wasn't shifted to initiator during lcq) clears him at his prime. I'd say top 5 at his prime. astell is NOT carrying cr bro, i'd say he might be a burden and one of the reasons CR lost was due to his weak site anchoring as viper.
"FS only qualed to Champs because they won the rematch" with this logic, optic only won reykjavik because they won the rematch, which is pretty stupid, the bo5 series in the lcq is more important than the bo3, doesn't matter if it's a rematch or not, you gotta prepare for the most important matchup and FS had to go through a lower bracket matchup before the finals, nth had a lot more time to prep. Also I doubt Nth would do any better than FS, they were grouped with vs, fnatic and c9, would likely not even win a map due to lan pressure just like fs.
johnolsen in the finals diffed seoldam 4/5 maps, this was during both players prime, and most important match of the lcq, johnolsen may not be a good oper but he is scary af during that time.
first of all i thought neth was back on igl duty, but even if astell's igl, anchoring and stats wise he's bad, little improvement from lcq. then again, if he's igl then he's failed the team in the matches against cr and zeta, cr strat wise looked terrible and it was really just meiy getting insane kills. even during munchkin's igl days in stage 1 2022, astell provided little impact.
also, forgot about patiphan, in champions he was crazy and def better than seoldam, proving it in the international stage.
UBF
Seoldam was diffed map 1
Seoldam diffed map 2
Seoldam diffed map 3
GF
seoldam diffed johnolsen map 1
seoldam was diffed map 2
map 3 seoldam was on skye
map 4 johnolsen diffed
map 5 seoldam diffed
4-3 for seoldam
not to mention seoldam had crazy impact during that series.
it was pretty close and either way, johnolsen is terrible at oping and that's partially the reason FS got smashed the way they did and why they aren't even in VCT anymore. he was a good player though, i respected his skill. but he is not better than seoldam, end all.
Fuck it, say Astell is doing shit - its still 4/5 players on old Nth that are insanely good. And Meiy is still carrying CR.
as for pati, definitely possible, but he has had the chance to go up against international competition whereas seoldam has not. it's possible that seoldam could have done just as well, if we judge by how TENNN and SugarZ3ro have done last Masters, and seeing ZETA's shotgun plays were literally taught by Seoldam.
map 1 of GF johnolsen acs > seoldam acs, better metric for jett than just counting unimpactful kills such as while saving and low hp kills, so 4-3 for johnolsen if you don't count that terrible skye game for seoldam.
seoldam is good but you overrate him due to his flashy shots, tennn was the ex factor in that team, you're also undermining the entries and impactful kills johnolsen made at that time, idk if u even watched that game or wasn't paying attention to it. as much as your korean pride doesn't wanna hear it, johnolsen prime > seoldam prime. FS sucked in stage 2 cause ptc was dealing with mental health issues and didn't play in the first couple games of VCT TH. you can't also use this argument cause seoldam already retired and didn't prove shit after.
plus, FS won against NTH when 4/5 players in nth are cracked, seems like another reason to put johnolsen above seoldam. i'd give him top 5 during his prime behind f0rsaken, buzz, patiphan, and slightly behind johnolsen.
ACS in general is a terrible metric wdym lol plus Seoldam literally went +10 to JohnOlsen's +2 and +6 in FK/FD to JohnOlsen's +3. Going 8 and 2 in FK/FD is way more valuable than having a measly 20 more ACS lmao
and why would I count a skye game when we're talking about jett players lol
"i overrate him due to his flashy shots" no lol, i consider him the better player because his util usage is the best i've seen at the time and because no other jett player got as much value as he did out of off-meta weapons (Shorty, Judge).
Seoldam literally had insane impact the entire tournament-are you sure YOU weren't paying attention?
As for "Korean pride" - if I cared about Korean pride I would be talking about BuZz being better than Seoldam lol. Arguably you have SEA pride lmao.
FS still underperformed in Stage 1 too.
FS won against Nth, therefore JohnOlsen > Seoldam? what is this logic? Team diff=/=player diff. That's like saying Mummay > Yay when NV beat ANDBOX.
Just saying, XSET wanted to sign Seoldam before Stage 1, according to Vanity.
not for jett players, counting the amount of kills is deff worse.
util usage on fking jett =/ impact as entry and fragger
yes he had played a big part towards nth's run but so did johnolsen and so should every other jett player. and trust me, i watched the entire tourney apart from some LB matches, he was good and i never said otherwise but johnolsen is more impactful than him in that bo5 series. i'd recommend you watch it back.
as for korean pride, it's obv you would support all koreans instead of only buzz such as fucking astell KEKW.
FS didn't underperform in stage 1, got 5/6th with a new player and played against promising SEA teams. seoldam however is retired. "as for pati, definitely possible, but he has had the chance to go up against international competition whereas seoldam has not. it's possible that seoldam could have done just as well" this logic is so stupid, should've won the game against FS and proved it, should've kept playing and joined xset no? prove that you deserve to be in a lan then you can talk about if he could've done what pati did. otherwise, it seems to me more of a "pati has proved it on lan against way better opponents and seoldam has not"
"FS won against Nth, therefore JohnOlsen > Seoldam? what is this logic? Team diff=/=player diff. That's like saying Mummay > Yay when NV beat ANDBOX." i never said this was the main reason i rate johnolsen above seoldam, it was an additional assurance to why i think so, after diffing seoldam in the entire series 4-3 i'd say johnolsen had more impact than seoldam hence why they won.
"Just saying, XSET wanted to sign Seoldam before Stage 1." so? what's does this have to do with anything? i wouldn't be certain he would bring xset to copenhagen as NA's first seed.
you can say seoldam's past consistency is better, putting big numbers in vct jp (even though it's a weaker region than SEA in stage 1), but in both primes during lcq, johnolsen impact > seoldam impact, johnolsen has also fallen off a bit after that.
not for jett players, counting the amount of kills is deff worse.
And you assume that ACS is a better metric? In terms of all valued available stats (Kills, K/D differential, FK/FD differential - no KAST for some reason rip) Seoldam did better than JohnOlsen map 1. Even with your supposed ACS diff, it's not even a huge gap - only 20.
as for korean pride, it's obv you would support all koreans instead of only buzz such as fucking astell KEKW.
Ignoring the fact that I mentioned Meiy, TENNN, and SugarZ3ro? Ignoring the fact that I also agreed with f0rsakeN? Looks like you've already built your own narrative buddy. What's more likely, me having a Korean bias just because I mentioned Astell, or me pushing the narrative that old Nth's players are cracked because I mentioned everyone along with Astell? LMFAO
i never said this was the main reason i rate johnolsen above seoldam, it was an additional assurance to why i think so
It's a pointless insurance. Team diff does not mean anything in regards to a player's individual skill. TL vs C9B Champs Quarterfinals, Leaf had more impact than anyone in the game, getting two aces. TL still won 2-0. You don't know what you're talking about. Jett/entry players have the most impact during the early round. Their value falls off towards the midround. FS winning was not because of JohnOlsen, it was because:
- They had better stamina (Nth looked burned out towards the end)
- They had good counterstrats after losing to Nth earlier
- Their team chemistry/comms were better (I know for a fact that Nth had some comm issues because Seoldam did not know Japanese well enough and Astell had to translate for him often)
Overall, FS were the better team that day. But that was not a JohnOlsen-provided win. Arguably PTC had the most impact for FS that series.
"Just saying, XSET wanted to sign Seoldam before Stage 1." so? what's does this have to do with anything? i wouldn't be certain he would bring xset to copenhagen as NA's first seed.
Very reputable team with good talent scouting and actual infrastructure decided that Seoldam was a viable player to join their roster. Means he had value to people who actually live and breathe the game on a daily basis and have infinitely more knowledge than we do (scrim knowledge, especially)
but in both primes during lcq, johnolsen impact > seoldam impact
You can't even say primes, Seoldam never played as a professional in any game and Northeption was his first team. JohnOlsen has a history in CS.
There's no point discussing this anymore, looks like we're not gonna compromise on anything.
"And you assume that ACS is a better metric? In terms of all valued stats (Kills, K/D differential, FK/FD differential) Seoldam did better than JohnOlsen map 1. Even with your supposed ACS diff, it's not even a huge gap - only 20."
johnolsen had better ADR, had same FK, and more deaths mean you're doing your job as jett. i still stand with my point, johnolsen is a little better than seoldam.
"Ignoring the fact that I mentioned Meiy, TENNN, and SugarZ3ro? Ignoring the fact that I also agreed with f0rsakeN?" broski you can have a korean pride bias and also supporting other players in jp, also the f0rsaken comparison is obvious, you literally have to agree with it or you're delusional, f0rsaken >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seoldam. you're clueless, having a korean pride bias is fine but i'm telling you that your bias is pushing towards seoldam>johnolsen and saying astell is carrying CR seems delusional as fuck.
"Team diff does not mean anything in regards to a player's individual skill. TL vs C9B Champs Quarterfinals, Leaf had more impact than anyone in the game, getting two aces. TL still won 2-0. You don't know what you're talking about." when the comparisons are pretty equal you narrow it down to little things like who led the team to win. not to mention, johnolsen had insane popout performances in other matches of the lcq against damwon and nuturn. you are without a doubt undermining his impact by a lot.
"Very reputable team with good talent scouting and actual infrastructure decided that Seoldam was a viable player to join their roster." the comparison was johnolsen vs seoldam, we all acknowledged that seoldam was a good player, who knows what johnolsen had been offered behind the scenes?
"You can't even say primes, Seoldam never played as a professional in any game and Northeption was his first team. JohnOlsen has a history in CS." do you understand what primes mean? "a state or time of greatest strength, vigor, or success in a person's life." in valorant context, most success and best performance of a player. it doesn't matter whether seoldam have had a history in other games, he's also been in Nth since february of 2021.
"FS winning was not because of JohnOlsen" he was CLEARLY the x factor, performed really well in 3 maps and performed solid in the other 2
you used to have great takes but recently even in other threads you became really delusional, sure you may have different opinions but saying Nth would've done better than FS in champs is an awful take, undermining FS' win in the most important series of the lcq and saying a team that lost to them would've done better is dumb, like fucking win then?
probably my last reply, you can disagree with whatever you like but the stats and impact of johnolsen in the bo5 was clear.
Tough but considering I have a soft spot for Old Nth, old Nth has a slight advantage. They were rather unassuming (being the 3rd-4th best team behind ZETA, CR, maybe Reject) for the entirety of 2021, and they weren't even supposed to make it to LCQ. They made it in because ZETA decided to pull out, and the China slots were reallocated to KR and JP. And you know what? They got hot at the right fucking time. Nobody expected Northeption to go forward the way they did. It was magical. Then the magic was stopped by FS who were also running a path of redemption, getting reverse sweeped. Tough.
Although, new Nth shows that the Nth spirit that existed during last year's LCQ passed on to the new Nth, and they were still the 3rd best team behind ZETA and CR. They're capable in their own rights.
Discord