TMV Role Subclasses

#1

Two_Percent

I kinda disagree with his subclassing. Heres how I would reclass them:

Duelist:

Movement - Jett, Raze, Neon
Flashes (duelist alternative to flash initi that lends more to 1v1 than team fights) - Phoenix, Reyna
Misc (kinda only really played for the shield) - Iso
Hybrid (flash + movement) - Yoru

Smokes:

Domes - Clove, Brim, Omen, Astra
Wall - Harbor
Hybrid (reg smokes + senti) - Viper

Initi:

Scans - Sova, Fade
Flash/CC - Breach, Kayo
Hybrid - Gekko, Skye

Senti:

Info - Kj, Cypher
Wall - Deadlock, Sage
Hybrid (Duelist + Senti) - Chamber
Hybrid (Flash + Senti) - Vyse

#2

bronzil_enjoyer

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yoru is not a movement duelist he is more like a initiator like kayo than a duelist

#22

Nachtel

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Incorrect. He's able to entry site faster than jett and raze in many situations

#3

bees

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What are his subclasses

Also this is too convoluted. Each role has two subclasses max. Senti is just trip vs support (sage and deadlock). Initiator is just recon vs flash. Skye, Breach, Kay/O, and somewhat Gekko all have two flashes and are picked based on what other gimmick they offer.

Controller is more defined by exec vs lurk. All but Viper and Astra have range-limited utility that helps to hit site quickly, while those two have utility that is inflexible or slow (respectively) in exchange for getting to play wherever they want.

#4

bonkashi

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i feel like even though astra and viper are both lurk, there is an important distinction that viper is wall smokes which allows her to solo maps like breeze and icebox which astra cannot effectively
even though she has global util she is more akin to harbour due to this, even if their playstyles aren't the same

#5

bees

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But Astra can solo maps that Viper can't, because you need to have flexible smokes. The individual meta of each map is a separate topic from their holistic roles on a team and the type of vibe you're playing with.

#14

Two_Percent

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viper and the rest of the controller class fulfill entirely different roles. Viper does main smoke on attack on maps like ib or breeze, but the reason she was so good these last years was bc on attack she was the only agent able to constantly put up and down lurk smokes, essentially allowing her to play as a senti on t side that no other smokes could do

#15

bees

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I mean yeah Viper is kinda her own thing. The way I see it, Astra is that middle ground between lurk threat and exec support, kinda like Skye is a flash initiator but also has a drone. Controllers are weird.

#13

Two_Percent

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the reason viper is senti and astra is not is bc viper puts her stuff down to create lurk channels on attack. Also viper just has to hit 1 button to put smokes up and down wherever on the map, where astra has to go into a different form, place a star, and activate it each time to use her util.

#39

MrBlooBloom

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Also viper is busted on defense bc she can hold a site pretty much like a sentinel (at least when she had two mollies)

#6

H3ENnZ

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Maybe im stupid but how is gekko a hybrid between scan and flash initiator, he and skye are flash initiator and flash only
If you really want a subclass it could be early info with sova, skye, gekko

#7

unknown_trash

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Maybe because his flash reveals enemy positions and wingman can also do that, but skye has a dog and that doesn't really make her a scan over a flash. Maybe because out of 4 total util pieces per round, 2 are flashes for skye while gekko technically has one of three, but 2 of the three can reveal and clear enemies along with his ultimate clearing out enemy positions. Idk though. Kayo is a hybrid too with his knife and flashes together. I think initiator roles should be scan only, and hybrid because apart from breach and the scan only agents, all the other initiators in the game can do a bit of both.

#8

H3ENnZ

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Those are good points i respect it
But in reality its so hard to classify agents and official classifications are weird too

#12

Two_Percent

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gekko flash is used similarly to skye flash, and wingman is like a fade prowler

#9

livefrmhollywood

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Tmv's subclass theory is a 3 circle venn diagram.
https://youtu.be/EJ7yx93QrUE

The idea is that every agent has a primary role, (duelist, initiator, etc), but has sub roles that match another agent role. Like jett's sub role is controller, chamber is duelist.

But most of them aren't purely binary, they sit in different parts of the venn diagram. And the point is not to be super accurate, but just look for obvious huge gaps in the venn diagram to put new agents. It's been right before, gecko and deadlock were both in obvious gaps.

Movement/flashes/info are accurate subclasses, but too specific for how general the venn diagram thing is.

Anderzz has a similar system that's a bit more refined, could check that out as well.

#10

livefrmhollywood

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https://youtu.be/rQ8PXanlAD0
It is a CRIME that this video only has 20k views

#19

loapoarg

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this is more complex than TMV as here every util is categorized in 3 ways
TMV is for plat to asc
Anderzz is for immo and radiant and pro play

#26

livefrmhollywood

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Both anderzz and TMV mainly care about pro play and theory. Anderzz is a professional analyst, and tmv is just trying to understand how riot thinks about the game, what buffs/nerfs they might do, what agents they might add. All of this is like, super irrelevant to ranked play. The subclasses that everyone else are describing (dive, flash, info) are more practical ranked subclass stuff.

#43

bees

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Wait this is crazy. His three agent predictions of control-midrange senti, midrange-aggro controller, and midrange-aggro duelist fit almost perfectly with Vyse, Clove, and Iso.

It seems like Valorant has difficulty with creating viable, balanced midrange archetypes. Refreshing utility is inherently hard not to make overpowered in a tac shooter. It's either the utility is just too strong for how much of it you get (Skye) or it's too situational to get value throughout a round (Vyse).

Feels like the only true midrange agent is Gekko, which is maybe why Gekko comps feel so fresh. Much to think about.

#44

bees

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Oh ALSO I'd be willing to bet the Harbor rework will make him the pure midrange controller he was always meant to be. Just a shit ton of refreshing walls designed to make enemies waste utility. All he needs is more flexible range, really.

#11

Two_Percent

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I dont really agree with it tho, like how are kj and cypher hybrid initi, and reyna is as much a flash initi as phoenix. I think that while applicable for some agents (chamber or viper) but i really dont think it applies for all agents

#17

unknown_trash

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Well the agents that are bad at their secondary role often aren't picked in pro play. Reyna being a pseudo flash initiator doesn't mean that she's good at her secondary role? And when this doesn't apply, it's because the util an agent provides is too valuable not to use. Jett isn't a good pseudo controller but her dash is the best movement ability in the game by far. Similarly, sova dart is so valuable that sova doesn't need a secondary role.

#35

Two_Percent

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i didnt say reyna is a pseudo flash initi, i said she is a duelist with flashes. most agents arent designed with a secondary role in mind, just what two things should they be good at (eg. viper is a wall smokes that has lurk capability, fade is a scan that can cycle util, yoru is a dive that has flashes)

#42

unknown_trash

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I never said they were made with another role in mind. I'm saying that the agents with pseudo roles that work tend to be in the meta. I didn't comment at all on how the agents are created, only the current state of the agents.

#20

loapoarg

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Cypher cages are controller>take space
trips are sentinel(defense)/info initiator(attack)> Cut off lurks/give info on pushes
camera is initiator tool
Ult is initiator tool
so he comes under initiator category

#36

Two_Percent

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im sorry but people do not use cypher cages like controller smokes

info initi doesnt cut off lurks ever and half the senti class dont have trips

ults dont constitute class, as you have them only every few rounds

camera is not even a good initi tool, its used more for passive map info. only few times when teams dont run scans they use it like one (fnc split)

#16

SuperRoss

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he's lowkey right

#18

ItzZausty

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Duelists:
Movement - Jett, Raze, Neon
Flash - Phoenix, Yoru
Kills - Iso, Reyna

Controller:
Wall - Viper, Harbour
Local - Brim, Clove
Global - Astra, Omen

Initiator:
Recon: Sova, Fade
Flash: Skye, KAY/O
Support: Gekko, Breach

Sentinel:
Proactive: Killjoy, Cypher, Chamber
Reactive: Sage, Deadlock, Vyse

#28

livefrmhollywood

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I feel like this is my whole point, you can't give agents a single subrole description. Like the controller section makes no sense. Local VS global smokes is just one aspect that you trade off for other things. And why are wall smokes their own category? You would also want to include 1 way smokes and astras larger dome smokes. It gets way too complicated.

That's why you generalize to 3 simpler overarching categories, and each agent gets a percentage score for each category.

#30

Two_Percent

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yoru is also a movement duelist, just not hard movement

viper and harbor have opposite playstyles

on smaller maps the smoke range doesnt matter enough to warrant a different playstyle

gekko and skye play very similar as team oriented initiators that cycle util for info and execs

breach and kayo both have similar flashes and big cc

deadlock is the most proactive senti in the game

there are lots of big gaps here

#21

KOMPOSTO

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duelist
Jett - dive
Raze - dive, init
Neon - dive
Yoru - Flash, init (He isnt true dive since if you tp in without support they will just shoot you during animation)
Phoenix - Flash
Reyna - You just shoot people
Iso - You just shoot people, and maybe a little bit init

Init (also all inits other than breach has info to some extent)
Sova: Scan, Drone
Fade: Scan, Mini-Drone
Skye: Flash, Drone
Gekko: Flash, Mini-Drone
Kayo: Flash
Breach: Flash

Senti
Cypher: Info, Kill
KJ: Info, Kill, Delay
Chamber: Mini-Info, Kill
Vyse: Mini-Info, Delay
Deadlock: Delay
Sage: Delay

Controller
Omen: Dome, Init-Duelist Mix
Clove: Dome, Reyna with smokes
Brim: Dome, Senti Mix
Astra: Dome, Init-Senti Mix
Viper: Wall, Senti Mix
Harbor: Wall

#24

Nachtel

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Wrong.

By this logic Neon isn't a movement duelist because if you dash in a straight line you'll get shot at.

Yoru can tp in by himself if the yoru player knows what they're doing.

#37

KOMPOSTO

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you can actually shoot while sliding as neon but with yoru you are a range bot for a second

#40

Nachtel

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Then just flash the enemy during the time you're vulnerable.

Same as Neon being behind cover during her sprint

#45

KOMPOSTO

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people will just turn flashes sometimes

#34

Two_Percent

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how is reyna not a flash duelist, her flashes have the same range as phoenix

#38

KOMPOSTO

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worst flash in the game

#23

Nachtel

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I agree with everything except maybe the smokes section

#31

Two_Percent

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how would you divide it

#25

kaninv

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I think you can simplify it way more just so it's easier for new players. but I do like TMV's way of handling it

Duelist:
Entrying - Jett, Raze, Neon
Fighting - Phoenix, Reyna, Iso, Yoru

Smokes:
Domes - Clove, Brim, Omen, Astra
Walls - Harbor, Viper

Initiator:
Scans - Sova, Fade
Flashes - Breach, Kayo, Gekko, Skye

Sentinel:
Info - Killjoy, Cypher
Control - Deadlock, Sage, Chamber, Vyse

#27

Nachtel

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Put yoru in entrying pls

#29

kaninv

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one tp (can entry)
flashes
fake out (which flashes)
ult that gives you info and makes it easier to fake out and flash people
seems quite fighting oriented

#32

Two_Percent

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yoru has as much entry as a jett

#33

Two_Percent

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skye and gekko play fundamentally differently to kayo and breach. if anything skye plays more like fade with flashes than breach or kayo

#41

Tadpole3

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Yoru is even less of a movement duelist than Kayo is a recon agent

#46

Two_Percent

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how is sending a tp across the map that you can instantly pop and relocate not movement

#47

bees

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Movement =/= dive, which is the more relevant classification.

The strength of dive duelists lies in the fact that they can both bypass senti utility and give visual info on the area they're bypassing. Also that they can close the gap on an enemy who is stunned/flashed/whatever to secure the kill before they escape. Yoru can only do the bypassing part.

His ability to lurk and regroup with TPs, and his ability to flash + TP into dangerous positions, puts him more in line with a supportive duelist or pseudo-initiator. It's kinda like how Phoenix provides extra flashes and area control or how Iso provides more teamfight power. But none of these three agents fill the same dive role that Jett/Raze do on site executes. That's what we look at when creating comps, not the existence of movement abilities in general.

#48

Two_Percent

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his clone helps with giving info. Also the difference between dive and movement is negligible, as at the end of the day youre playing a duelist to break chokes, which yoru does. I agree yoru is not an aggressive dive duelist, but he is definitely a movement duelist, and at the high levels plays like one on jett, raze, and neon maps, even if he doesnt have their explosiveness

#49

bees

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The problem is that even a clone + flash + TP combo won't always tell you if there's someone sitting right outside the choke with a shotgun, or if there's a deep turret that an enemy might be swinging off of, or if there's a flashed enemy who just backed up into CT about to use counter utility, etc.

This supplemental "eyes and ears" is critical to why dive duelists are utilized in the vast majority of pro comps.