EWC and say truth

#1

avrgvctenjoyer

i have seen many arguements these past few days since the annoucement and everyone has the wrong idea and love bashing on sideshow(I agree and disagree with the bashing)

firstly it is not xenophobic or racist to criticise the saudi government or ewc. if something is rubbish or bullshit call it out

secondly this point is mainly about sideshow and people critising him. everyone needs to get out of the mindset of, oh he works in the US its worse or riot is owned by tencent and its controlled by the ccp, this isnt a contest of who owns what or who is worse
everyone across the world and in valorant need to get out of the mindset of, 'oh but so and so is worse' that is a rubbish mindset to have. so because he or someone is from the US, UK or some country, they cannot call something that is wrong out? are we all to sit in silence and not say anything because our country's did or are doing horrible things? I am from APAC must i also keep quiet because my country did or is doing bad things?

i am in the middle, im not right leaning, im not left leaning, im just not a dickhead thats should be everyone's goal. just dont be a dickhead and be a human being. this isnt about virtual signaling this isnt about being 'woke' or political, its about being a human being, having morales and caring about other people as well.

orgs and companies like Sen and riot care about public perception, riot brought back hextech chest after saying it wasnt possible. if you really want to make a change do it, dont just say it and for the people that really dont see an issue with the saudi government or ewc I plead you to take off your blinders or biased glasses and read up on it.

I hope to spark meaningful conversations about it below

#2

Dudhi

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#3

Nef0r0

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I like the concept of EWC, having all games gather for one great festival, however i do realize that the only company big enough to do it is the KSA. Is it bad that KSA can use esports to make their reputation cleaner? Yes. Is there any other alternative? No.

#4

gamergirl

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If you can acknowledge that you need Saudi resources to keep the lights on in your home for a reasonable price. You NEED to pay your bills surely you can acknowledge that most of these orgs need Saudi money to keep the lights on. Except guess what, the EWC is not directly harming any life, but the natural resources that power our lives do.

The objectively xenophobic part about your stance, is that if this tournament was held in America you'd be okay with it. Rename it Masters Shanghai and it's okay!

You're allowed to draw a line on necessities, and acknowledge that there's evil everywhere, acknowledge that there is a cycle. You're not raising awareness though, you're asking people to not take Saudi resources, when you yourself do it.

You're not raising awareness, if you were you'd all be doing it before, what you're mad is that it isn't a European or American who trades with the Saudi's to make his money and keep his image clean funding the event, but the Saudi's themselves. There is no way to get around that, and I don't care if you are xenophobic, just don't pretend you aren't

#5

TM06Nick

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i mean if the us military was funding a tournament you wouldn't see me supporting it. its the same thing. the Saudi Crown is doing this to change his image from Prince Bonesaw to the silly little gamer that loves everyone

#7

gamergirl

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Genuine question, CS and League are funded by evil people, where are the complaints. Saudi's are the reason esports is as big as it is today, along with the Chinese. To lesser extents Korea, Japan and Europe.

Saudi and China are both evil yet the entire market that exists today, solely exists because of them

The issue arises for people when Saudi started hosting a tournament in their country, it is XENOPHOBIC to take Saudi and Chinese money for decades to fund an entire industry, then say nah, we aren't actually going there though. We can only take their money via proxy. Similar to Masters Shanghai, Valorant was always tied to China, but now that they're IN China there is an issue.

So, you're not actually raising awareness, what you're doing is saying I'm fine with Saudi and Chinese money as long as we keep it in our countries.

To be clear, these are disgusting dictatorships, all of them. However, when you have no issue taking their money until they host a tournament in their home country there is clear xenophobia and bias there.

#9

zetydy

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The biggest real difference is one is happening right now. People do take issue with countries like China being so heavily involved in Riot and esports, but EWC is just a more recent example. Another is that women or LGBTQ people attending events in Saudi is a much worse and more dangerous experience than in China.

#15

gamergirl

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If yall boycotted saudi and chinese money in every aspect i'd be okay

i have no issue with you boycotting these events just because theyre hosted in china and saudi too, its just racist.. sorry

if saudi was just funding the scene but didnt get anything in return you'd have no issue..

#18

avrgvctenjoyer

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even if saudi got nothing back id still have an issue. this whole event will be a loss in money for them but they dont care because people like you and members of the community with buy what the saudis are feeding you

#22

gamergirl

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I'm not buying anything, I'm not going to Saudi Arabia anytime soon and I don't like them. You're just a virtue signaler because the only reason an esports market exists is because of Chinese and Saudi money, so for you to then say they can't host a tournament in their home country as if they don't run esports already is just racist.

there could be 0 human rights violations involving the EWC, absolutely none, but the fact that it's hosted in saudi is why you're boycotting. Similarly if the event is hosted in LA, called Champions 2023, or a CS major you'd have 0 issue. The same chinese or saudi money is being used to fund it, we established in this isolated event there are no atrocities, you're just mad because its in a different country

#26

avrgvctenjoyer

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buy in the sense of whatever bullshit they are selling you. Im not virtual signalling. from the start it was a conversation on, without whataboutism can you or anyone else and i come to the same conclusion and clearly you cant understand my point. if there we're 0 human atrocities id watch ewc EVERY FUCKING DAY. oh fnatic loud ewc. bet what time is the game

I like how i told you i dont care about china so you've move to the US who i dont evelyn care about even more. to make matters worse it was at 3am and i have classes so i didnt watch it at all

#30

gamergirl

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what human atrocities did the EWC commit, I'm asking in the build up of this event, what atrocities did they commit. If the answer is none, let me follow up, what atrocities did Riot Games commit in the build up of Master's Shanghai. If the answer is none, let me follow up, what is the difference between Masters Tokyo and Masters Shanghai?

#32

avrgvctenjoyer

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the ewc which is saudi owned
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/middle-east/saudi-arabia/report-saudi-arabia/
so the answer isnt none:)
your point about riot being owned By tencent and the ccp is also false. there are members of the ccp in the company, doesnt mean they own tencent and riot

once again i just have 1 question so i know if we can continue our conversation, if you are not going to compared saudi to china to us to russia can we have a discussion about why EWC is bad and it has nothing to do with xenophobia. Yes or No?
this is the only answer i nee

continue thread →

#20

zetydy

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So your argument is just "Everyone is hypocritical so fuck them?" It's incredibly difficult to completely untangle your life from unethical or exploitative consumption. If people were perfect, maybe they'd make more of an attempt. However, that doesn't make criticizing decisions that lead into more unethical consumption to be bad.

I don't personally think that everyone who watches or wants to watch EWC is a bad person. I won't watch it, but you're right I'm probably hypocritical in a lot of ways and not watching it is a personal choice. I also think, however, that this shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. Not for practical or business reasons, but moral ones.

#24

gamergirl

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It's just funny

Take Masters Shanghai for example, the ONLY difference is the country it's hosted in, it's the same source of money, same everything, just a different PLACE in the world. You won't boycott Tokyo, even though a chinese company and resources funded that event too.

You're only upset that China received tourism in this instance, because its the only difference

#29

zetydy

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Uh, no. My biggest reason for not watching the EWC is just because the fact that they threw a ludicrous amount of money at the game to force a big tournament despite the wishes of many fans, players, and talent left a bad taste in my mouth. It's also not going to be a particularly good tournament.

I like Valorant so I consume it. Doesn't mean I have to like everything about it.

#31

gamergirl

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My brotha, saudi arabia is the biggest investor in esports before this event. The difference is that the EWC is used to drive tourism. That's literally it, and tourism is a choice

#33

zetydy

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Ok, let me break this down for you. Valorant was not taking a bunch of money from Saudi before and now they've caved. People are sad about this.

And on tourism, why do you think these events up tourism? Could it be almost like... marketing the country? No way.

Honestly, I'm far from the biggest detractor from this decision. I don't like it, but I don't think it's as big a deal as a lot of people. But there is OBVIOUSLY many more reasons to dislike this decision and the EWC than being xenophobic or racist.

#6

zetydy

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The franchising orgs do not need Saudi resources to keep the lights on. Maybe the T2 orgs, but not the franchising orgs. Also if the US attempted to buy out an esport for publicity and cover-up humans rights abuses people would absolutely care. Many people who are critical of this are also critical of America, Europe, and other such countries as well.

Whataboutism also just isn't helpful. There are definitely cases where people have let similar things slide either out of ignorance or lack of care, but that doesn't change anything.

#8

woooiammaliiiiik

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Army national guard

#11

gamergirl

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Firstly, most partnered organizations do not make a profit, so accepting EWC money is pretty much a must, and if they denied, I'm sure their stakeholders would be VERY upset.

Secondly, Saudi's are not just trying to cover up humans' rights abuses, they are trying to drive up tourism in general... Something every country does, it's why the middle east has several airlines.

Thirdly, the United States and other nations don't have to cover up humans' rights abuses because they offload them to China and other nations like Saudi. So, your point is mute. The US forces these nations to compete, thus forcing them to lower prices to stay afloat, therefor causing these humans rights abuses. So, I want you to understand, you are again picking and choosing who is right and wrong based on the flag.

Also, bro, I never see any complaints about FaceIt or Riot games until there's a tournament in Saudi or China. It's just straight up bias, yall can enjoy their products (esports) until they take it to their home

It is not sports-washing, esports is an ASIAN sport, primarily funded by Arabs and Chinese

#17

zetydy

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First: Obviously from a business standpoint Orgs are incentivized to accept Saudi money, but I'm simply stating that they don't NEED it, and that if the EWC never happened they'd still exist and be fine.

Secondly: Covering up bad PR is definitely a reason why they are doing it. Part of the reason they need to increase tourism is because their PR isn't great. I don't see why [ointing out that a country is still bad despite this and actually you shouldn't visit is a problem.

Thirdly: Again, nobody is excusing specific countries. I criticize the US a lot, I criticize China a lot, Saudi is in the air-waves less so I criticize it less but it's not above critique either.

And, newsflash, a lot of gamers and the general public don't care about these issues. This is why people aren't constantly and publicly shitting on riot and Faceit, and when their ownership is displayed front and center it becomes more of an issue for the average person. That doesn't mean that there aren't still people who take issue with these things or would if they weren't ignorant.

#12

avrgvctenjoyer

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thank you whataboutism is really fucking stupid. all i ask is that people remove the whataboutism aspect and take off their blinders to see what is really happening right infronf of them

#10

avrgvctenjoyer

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I appericate your response but i dislike and find these type of responses annoying, you are out here trying to go bar for bar on which country is worse when i am telling you NOT to do that and to be a normal human being with emotions. youve taken my point and twisted it to what you think ive said

why can't i or sideshow or the community call out the as government without being called xenophobic why cant we just be Normal human beings who care about other people in the world

You NEED to pay your bills surely you can acknowledge that most of these orgs need Saudi money to keep the lights on.

what about the orgs that dont need the money like TL?

Rename it Masters Shanghai and it's okay!

I didnt watch masters shanghai and i did have an issue with it being held in shanghai.

You're allowed to draw a line on necessities, and acknowledge that there's evil everywhere, acknowledge that there is a cycle. You're not raising awareness though, you're asking people to not take Saudi resources, when you yourself do it.

i dont get this point, my country uses solar panel in almost every aspect, my family owns an electric car how do i take saudi resources?

You're not raising awareness, if you were you'd all be doing it before, what you're mad is that it isn't a European or American who trades with the Saudi's to make his money and keep his image clean funding the event, but the Saudi's themselves. There is no way to get around that, and I don't care if you are xenophobic, just don't pretend you aren't

i did do it before check my logs. if this was a Russian trading with someone id also be mad. what your point, i should call out everything? Ive done that irl or do i need to do that on vlr as well since french gamergirl asks it of me?

#13

gamergirl

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Electric cars and solar panels need resources that are primarily mined by slaves, so they aren't any better but nice try.

Secondly I'm not telling you not to care,

you are ignoring my point, and just being a nonce, can you comprehend that saudi and chinse money is everywhere and you only complain when there is a tournament IN THOSE COUNTRIES

#16

avrgvctenjoyer

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well I wrote a report about the concentration camps in China when i was in school. like i said do i need to bring up what I did in my real life?

i have a question for you, if you were to remove this whole, what about this country or that country can we have a decent logical discussion about it? or no?

#19

gamergirl

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bro, if Riot uses CCP resources and power to promote their game grow the scene, fund it, etc etc and your only issue is when they host a tournament IN China you are a walking logical fallacy, bottom line

#21

zetydy

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I think it's pretty obvious his only issue isn't solely when they host an event in China. Them hosting an event in China is just enough to get him not to watch.

#27

gamergirl

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Im just saying, yall okay with a riot (chinese) event in the US but not a chinese event in china lol

#23

Neonfreak

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How is it xenophobic to not want Valorant to host events or take money from governments in places that have terrible humans rights issues? It's not about disliking the people that live there or what region the event is held in, it's an issue with the government and the laws and atrocities that they commit. Would you be fine with with Riot hosting an event in Russia when they are still in the midst of an invasion of Ukraine or is there no line that can be crossed and every country is equally morally grey?

#25

gamergirl

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It's xenophobic because the only difference between masters shanghai and masters tokyo is location.

The only difference between the EWC, and a faceit major in CSGO hosted in the US is location.

#28

avrgvctenjoyer

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you are lost in the sauce. i am sorry. you've learnt thw word xenophobic and is now throwing it around as a buzz word

gamergirl i just have 1 question so i know if we can continue our conversation, if you are not going to compared saudi to china to us to russia can we have a discussion about why EWC is bad and it has nothing to do with xenophobia. Yes or No?
this is the only answer i need

#14

avrgvctenjoyer

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ah

#36

_R0GUE

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After reading this thread a bunch of times, I keep coming back to the same few points:

The issues in Saudi Arabia cannot be fixed even if the entire esports community is against the EWC and the EWC doesn't happen. So how will the average person not watching the EWC help in stopping these issues?

In the end I believe that the Saudi's reputation won't actually benefit from this and the issues will stay. The reason why I think the Saudi's reputation won't improve comes down to 2 points:

Firstly, I don't think sports washing is as effective as people claim it is. Nearly if not all esports/sports viewers are only watching to watch the games and couldn't care less about the countries they are hosted in. My view on Saudi Arabia as a country has never changed despite watching esports events hosted there. Similarly my view on Qatar has not changed despite watching a lot of the 2022 world cup.

Secondly, by hosting events such as these, the media and the public will generate massive amounts of attention towards the issues in the countries. I feel that this is much more impactful than the actual events and the net effect towards reputation will actually be negative.

So from my point of view:
You are essentially asking me to stop doing something I enjoy to help protest against an issue that won't be fixed or impacted if I decide to stop doing that thing.

TL;DR
IMO the key issues that are being brought up won't be fixed or impacted by protesting against them in this form, and the fans would be giving up something they enjoy with the only benefit being the fact that it is morally correct, which just isn't a logical trade.

#37

ATBSniper

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