talon. most of them call for their teams players heads and just want a all thai team but i still dont understand how you think that will get you better results this team was terrible before frost
6
never seen a fanbase quite like
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People just feel betrayed that the supposed Thai rep isn't a full Thai team (People were already questioning TALON (a HK org) taking the Thai spot but since they signed all Thai players and have a significant presence with Thai players on other game titles, they support them). The mindset is always, if we're not winning with an international team, why not just promote Thai players on the international stage instead since the result is the same.
The latter issue is THERE IS insanely talented players that just need to be picked up. Keep in mind, the first year TALON roster was the X10 core + garnetS + Patiphan. The coaching staff and decision making looked a mess and the stress definitely caught up to the whole team and caused riffs between the players. That was a solid team on paper but there was just too much mismanagement and a lack of discipline + the whole 6 man fiasco and incorportating Pati who wasn't even playing the game for a year.
The point is from the fans perspective, these talented rookies never even got the chance to play on the main stage ~ we don't know of trials or behind the scenes so the main stage is all we have to go off. I think the coaching staff has made a tremendous impact on all the players especially Crws and Jitboys who have become very solid in their own roles as an IGL and Controller respectively. I think the international roster forces the team to comm in English which allows for Frost to listen in and coach but with a full Thai team, they would of course prefer to comm mostly in English and therefore Frost would not be able to listen in.
In my ideal world, I like Frost and his ideas for the game (his personality is brash and egoistic, but clearly it's working somewhat and sometimes you need personality). I wish I could have a Frost combination with a Thai AC/Stage coach who could takeover on the stage and discuss with Frost during the game while in timeouts everything would be relayed to the Thai players in Thai.
Mechanically Thailand is one of the best in SEA and perhaps only Indonesia can rival them. I think that was definitely the case early on but now there's like 9 Indonesians across 3 different teams in the league which is far more than the 3 Thais in TALON so who knows at this point. Regardless, mechanics isn't an issue in SEA and that's been apparent but what we lack is discipline, role-understanding and the game sense you need for the top level. I believe these can be molded into players with the proper coaching staff and vod-reviews so that the bad habits can be corrected.
I get it to a certain extent you guys feel like with the limited number of thai spots fielding them to american players is a waste. but would you really prefer if full sense was franchised and they just picked up frost? i also dont think you understand the full context of why frost built the team the way he did. he agrees the talent in thailand is there but he says the throws and just general lack of understanding is the worst hes coached which is why he picked 3 players he sees great potential in and then has integrated them with players hes coached in the past that provide what the thai players lack. with ban its his micro and mid rounding and with gov its his space creation and vibes. so when you see it like this its very obvious to me frosts goal is to build a thai core and win something with them so he can go back to NA and then they can bring in 2 rookies from their academy and transition to full thai once hes gone. if your a fan of the team you just gotta trust the process its not like hes gotten you no results since hes joined the team.
Trust me I understand to a decent degree and I consider myself a pretty rational, and I've watched Crw's initial streams where he talked about the decisions and such. First things first, Frost is an American coach and that means in order to fully understand the comms, the team would likely have to speak English (sure, are there workarounds to this? absolutely, but they all required much more work and time i.e. translating through an AC or reviewing VODS with a translator).
Secondly, Frost is a very polarising coach with strong self belief which pretty much comes across as arrogance (whether he is in the right or wrong, I cannot judge aside from results). Thai people are generally more reserved, quiet and not outlandish and may feel intimidated or discontent with Frost's coaching style ~ lets not forget that both Primmie and Surf weren't originally signed with the team and originally this team only had 2 Thai players from the old core. A mechanical demon like Primmie who was tearing it up in ranked didn't sign with TALON because he disliked Frost and only eventually signed because Crws basically begged him to join, spoke to his parents personally and convinced him (and of course his close buddy Jitboys was on the roster). I imagine many of the other tryouts players might have felt the same. Also, Frost wasn't even considered picking up Primmie until Crws eventually convinced him and vouched for him HEAVILY and look how he's turned out ~ sometimes Frost may lack oversight and CAN be proven wrong. Also, Lenne was outright bad and Frost put him on the IGL role and as soon as they made the switch to Crws, they looked better and how quickly they dropped lenne after supposedly doing well enough in tryouts to be picked up (probably because he's a native English speaker?). I also think Crws was super low confidence after such a shit season that he was willing to role with anything that the new coach suggested (especially someone like Frost) and only after a while did the dynamic shift to Crws challenging and debating Frost over decisions.
Thirdly, even with these 2 imports players, the throws are still recurring and this core has been together for over a year now. Tell me why with a Thai roster within a year you couldn't iron out these issues just as well; and the kicker? who on the roster is the most prone to overheats and throws? their two imports ESPECIALLY ban ~ how many FD does ban have due to him over-relying on his reads on enemy positions and just getting punished for free. Instead of space making, he is space depleting since his team loses map control and is forced to either storm a site or re-clear costing time and resources.
Also, this does not even talk about the inconsistencies in performance. A team is not gonna win when they have 2 players dropping stinkers and the two Thai players (not IGLing) being the most consistent performers. Look at how Jitboys (a mechanical demon) has turned into an insane anchor and smart controller player, how Crws has become a true leader and IGL and generally has good macro and midround calls. I think if Frost was willing to put in the time and effort to indeed mold these mechanically gifted players, the heights of this team would be unmatched. Game sense and discpline can be instilled but mechanics is basically just the win factor at the end of the day and that can only come from the player themselves and to me, I think Thailand is literally the Turkey of APAC in regards to cracked aimers. To me, I think the 3 week trial period TALON gave was way too short and compact to accurately form an expert evaluation especially when so many factors must be adjusted to i.e. a foreign coach, added pressure of a contract (most players are part timers or not paid a Tier 1 salary) ~ so many scrims and tryouts packed into a day is not gonna yield great results from the get go and how well do you expect a plug and play team to perform.
As I've said numerous times, I think Gov works fine on his role but there are better players and the ban-governor duo is basically a package deal. Ban to me is just not cut out to be a starter in my books and from the outside looking in, does not offer anything overly valuable to the team or at least I believe there is a Thai player equivalent that could fulfill his role just as well if Frost could secure a deal.
Of course, with all this being said, results are what matters the most but teams are here to win not be in the general vicinity. If TALON can indeed be a consistent performer, qualify for all masters events and do well in Champions then I think roster changes do not need to be made, but if they fail to do so and ban, governor still put up mediocre performances, then I will absolutely vouch further for a full Thai roster. Crws does too much for this team that I cannot critique his performance too harshly. Crws has also openly stated numerous times that he is the one doing the mid-rounding and macro (case and point yesterday's interview where he is asked how they adapted to NS' playstyle and he said that he waited to see their executes and how they played and called adaptations accordingly).
Also, I do not think that FULL SENSE is the best Thai roster that can be assembled, as a coach or assistant coach I would definitely be watching the current SEA challengers as well as ranked looking for possible replacements that can be poached from these T2 teams. There's barely any contract jails since most Thai orgs have exited VALORANT so there really is no excuse not to give in another go. Also, perhaps with added pressure of being replaced, the existing players may feel the need to grind and work on their mechanics to maintain their spot in the roster. With a top 4 finish at champs and supposed good results in scrims, I was not surprised nor disappointed when they didn't make any roster changes at the start of the year but I will be disappointed if they indeed do not qualify and perform consistently average and still refuse to make changes. I do not want a PRX situation except we don't have the same accolades or former glory as PRX to reminisce to.
100% understand most this but yeah i would reserve calling for players heads like gov and ban until they underperform results wise they should be making champs at least this year and hopefully bangkok. if they dont then yes obviously say what you think will make the team better from the outside but considering they get consistent results even with ban and gov, they obviously do bring something to the team that we cant see
I just think the scale of reference is too small. One bad year from an all Thai roster (that had internal issues and struggled to adapt to the brand new franchise format and truly become 'professional') when in actuality, the OG Talon i.e. X10 roster was always a top contender in Pacific. Weaker than DRX and PRX, but still in the top 3/4.
It's not just results though, ban has consistently had more terrible games than good ones and it's all about the cost analysis, is the trade off of more mid-rounding and slightly less burden on Crws the better trade than finding a very mechanically talented youngster who might not contribute as much to overall comms but frags heavily and anchors his role well. To me, I think with the case of Primmie, if you indeed just win gunfights, you do win games and Frost's overall track record of transforming players into smarter, more disciplined players is indeed working well so why limit yourself to someone who's mechanics aren't where they should be and hasn't shown improvement even since his T1 days.
frost isn’t good but talon’s old coach had them doing shit like this
https://www.vlr.gg/184470/talon-esports-vs-drx-champions-tour-2023-pacific-league-w3/?game=119551
Listen, Zeus had a fuck it we ball moment and decided since the team environment was fucked anyway, why not try some dumb shit. The whole 6th man rotation shit fucked them especially when they kept starting a player who wasn't even playing VALORANT competitive in over a year.
No hate pati, I love you bro.
Others wonder why Thai fans want to kick Ban and Governor.
Thai fans also wonder why aren’t they kicked already.
Jokes aside, as long as they make internationals and perform well repping TH, I wouldn’t call for their replacement. But if they hold back Lord Primmie’s efforts, then they should be replaced.
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