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No sent comp are the future ?

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#1
Anguibok

While people glaze the 2 sentinel composition that have been played at the start of the kickoff, data of last year seems to show that no-sentinel composition (Modulo Vyze) are really great , and may even be the future of Valorant

And here is why : https://youtu.be/nrMksWF43n8

I think Cypher nerf and Killjoy should in long term go down when the inertia will be over; Riot might have kill the 2 most viable sentinel, and even if I think Vyze is OP in proplay because she perfectly fit the meta, we may see more and more composition where the sentinel has been replace by a controller. (And I think it's a good thing)

I didn't talk about it yet in the video, but I believe the future of Valorant is 2-controller composition, with a Duelist, an Reveal, and the last spot for the 3 other roles. because it allow you to take mush more risk.

What is your point of view ?

#2
Anguibok
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For non-listener, here is the script :

Hi vlr, today I want to talk about sentinels, and why I think 2025 might be the future of no-sentinels compositions. And also, why composition with 2 smoker and either 2 initiators or 2 duelist may be the meta for 2025. and I m’ not gonna use the argument « Tejo destroy every sentinels spells » because, using a basic spell to destroy a basic spell is good but not that OP, and I see mush more intresting things to say here.

Alright, so let’s look at the situation of late 2024 and see how the 0 sentinel compositions have made so far. When I look at spells archetypes and take every maps, 0-sentinel composition ended the year with 54 % NonMirror Winrate, wish is a reeally great result, but this result is a little bit biased by the fact Sage did amazingely and I didn’t count her as a Sentinel, and by the fact some type of archetype that doesnt require a sentinel can be a huge troll, like for exemple the 2 initiator 2 duelist composition.

If you want some exemple, they are even map, where no sentinel where meta, Bind was always a no senitnel map and Split have significant good result on doble controller and doble duelist composition. And if you take most recent international event : GenG won the last master being unbeaten on Breeze with 3 win without a sentinel and EDG won last champion being unbeaten on their 2 games of Abyss and their 5 games of Lotus playing no sentinels on both map.
So no… You can’t say « 0 sentinel composition arent viable », they where already quite good bfore Tejo’s release, and they may be even stronger after.

So let’s just look at the class archetype and target at the 2 archetype that I think have the most potential : 2 controller archetypes with either double duelist or double intitator composition. If you except the 4 archetype with Sage, you can see that, globally this 2 archetypes are the 2 best one. Doble initiator composition have 55 % Non Mirror Winrate and in second position we have doble duelist composition with 52 %, but this one is far to be significant.

So we ended the year with composition without Sentinel being already good. But after the year end, few thing happened, first Vyze was release, wish is good for composition with a sentinel, because, she is a sentinel and I still think she is a hidden broken pick. Then we got a cople of up and nerf, Cypher was hardely nerf, wish is obvisouly bad for the Sentinel pickrate… Neon was also nerf, and since Cypher is a counter of Neon, her nerf also is an indirect nerf of Cypher, then Astra was up, and Astra is a good alternative of picking a senitinel… And Finally Tejo was release.

And Tejo is hard countering the last meta sentinel : Killjoy… Why ? Because you remember when I said using a basic spell to break a basic spell isnt that op ? Well when it’s a refillable basic spell can break an ultimate so easily then… Yeah, now we can call this OP… Also, keep in mind, that Killjoy ultimate is the main quality of Killjoy, and I dont really think she have maps where she is played without having a gamebreaker ultimate. So since they are no draft in Valorant, picking Killjoy knowing the opponent team might pick Tejo and nullify your impact doesnt seems a good choice.

So let’s look at every sentinel, and see who is strong, who is weak and who you should pick, one by on  :

  • And lets start with Cypher, 44 % Pickrate, negative in winrate before his nerf, and I really think his nerf will make him suffer a lot. Cypher also suffer for neon nerf, he was the main counter of her, and now she was heavily nerfed they are no point to pick him to prevent a potential Neon pick.
  • Lets continue with Killjoy, that have 38 % Pickrate, slightly above 50 % Winrate, but now is Tejo release, and he can litterally remove her ult from the game… well… I don’t think you shoul continue pick her.
  • Next Deadlock, 4 % pickrate negative in winrate, she is even not played in solo sentinel, I just still think Dealock is puretrash
  • Next Chamber, 2 % pickrate negative in Winrate, it’s Chamber, he is still too weak
  • Next is Vyze, that lack of data, in one hand I still she is a hidden broken pick, but, in other hand in split 3, really few team have pick her, so maybe i’m overhyping her.
  • And finally Sage, 7 % Pickrate, and a good winrate, I let you judge if she is consider as a sentinel or not.

So we are potentially in a situation where a complete class of agent is bad, and since we are not forced to pick a sentinel in a composition, because they are no rolelock, and some of thoose composition are good. THEN… Real question… Shouldn’t we consider to stop playing Sentinels ? Some team did it in the past and it worked really nice !
So I can’t wait for next year. Will Killjoy and Cypher still be the best option after Cypher nerf, Neon Nerf, Tejo’s release, Vyze’s release, Sage up, Astra up ? I’m not really sure of that, and I really hope some team try to drop thoose 2, and try new thing, it can be pick Vyze, pick Sage, or fully commit on no sentinel on new map, and maybe this is even the best solution. Anyway byyye.

#6
z12
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thank you so much

#7
goofyahh1447
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great work

#19
islaaa
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wow you're really good at that

#20
Anguibok
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Wait... What do you mean é.è

#21
Conceit
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Wait that face is adorable, how have I never seen that before

#3
Froggy0_0
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allat

#4
cloudberry
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I think the meta has changed drastically enough that double sentinel is more viable now than no sentinel, depending on the map. I also do believe teams have had more time to learn and create ideas around the newer sentinels (Deadlock/Vyse) and as such, their pickrates and winrates will both rise.

In addition to this, as much as I think there's a ton of talent in tier 2, Split 3 isn't really the best source of data when it comes to data and that kinda thing. Teams don't have the top analysts and coaches in the world; rather they're trying to innovate themselves, and obviously the average quality of comps and ideas is going to be a tad lower than that of tier 1

#14
Anguibok
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Last time i've checked 0S > 2S > 1S

I didnt use split 3, only split 2 in both T1 and T2

#5
Shadow_Monarch
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More fun without sentinel in VCT, pros be lurking and flanking more which is good to see. Or at least I enjoy doing so.

#22
Anguibok
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I agree, one of my personnal wet dream is just to rework sentinel into another role and go on a 2-2-2 rolequeue (Since sentinel used to take 2 lanes with trap and bot, it's ok to go to 6v6)

Sentinel are especially bad for soloQ because it's hard to antistrat things like some trap you cant destroy if you dont have the proper comp

#8
midzera
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It's definitely a bit map-dependent on whether no-sentinel comps or comps with sentinels are the most viable or even meta choice. Bind definitely has been traditionally no-sentinel for a long period of time since the idea is to play for post-plant and basically spam molly, nade, etc. Solo-sentinel on that map has been difficult since the entries into site are rather short and easy to flood out from. With the prominence of Deadlock combos with Vyse, double sentinel will probably become the meta given how oppressive it is for attackers to push when there is so much slowing utility. Slowing down flood-pushes is truly the best counter to the old meta. Just like cloudberry mentioned, Vyse and Deadlock are fairly recent with Vyse being released post-Champs.

Some maps, the sentinel-pick won't really change. For example, Haven will always demand a sentinel given how long the rotations are and how many areas enemies can entry through. Lotus is somewhat similar where you can still see a sentinel being picked due to the similar issue of long rotations and that there's a lot of space where you would want info. You could play Clove or Astra as a substitute for a sentinel, but these comps demand a player have good enough mechanics to take fights rather than passively gain info from util.

Additionally, Sage is a sentinel, albeit not the traditional info-gathering sentinel. She definitely skews the data since PRX had a good run with her on maps like Icebox and Sunset. She is definitely useful in niche comps like on Split given she can flip rounds with her ult and provide additional heals alongside Skye. Teams definitely prefer info sentinels though which is why Cypher and KJ will probably never become out of favour across a whole map pool. They will definitely lose picks to Deadlock and Vyse due to the combos or initiators since Tejo has a high ceiling for post plant. Overall, most Tier 1 pro-teams love info-sentinels since it minimises the risk of having to face-check an area to claim space or hold flanks. The only maps which will have a significant amount of no-sentinel comp picks will probably be Bind and Abyss.

#15
Anguibok
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Everything is map dependent, but more time pass, more map may become a 2 controller / 0-sentinel comp

I still need few screen to release my video about "Why I doest consider sage Alone, not a sentinel, and maybe put her in controller in the future"

#9
Er3ngenes1s
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on the cypher part, people will still pick on larger after a patch or 2 due to him being the only sentinel with global util

#10
Anguibok
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Controller have also global util :X (And lot of people start to say that Viper and Astra are "sentinels" wish make no sense but preserve the feeling that a team need to have a sentinel)

#16
Er3ngenes1s
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i dont think controllers provide the same value of their util as cypher's util does in site holds and stuff

#11
Two_Percent
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I literally made a post talking about the future of valo comps, and how senti was overrated

here we are, yet again i stand correct

also i knew trace would beat edg and guess what happened

#12
Anguibok
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Given the fact TE was the team that used setninel and EDG dont i'm not sure thats the best exemple T.T

#13
Two_Percent
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not related, just saying ik ball

the people dont listen

#17
foythvlr
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No sentinel is indeed a more "modern" way of playing. I know that Saadhak for instance don't really like using a classic sentinel at all. You could see it when Loud was running Viper as a substitute through almost the entirety of 2024 except for maps were Viper was used as a main controller (Icebox and Breeze, both out of rotation rn). It got changed on the Neon meta were Cypher was a counter, but they never really liked using it. KC seems to be playing more in that way, with more Double Controller, Vyse and Deadlock picks that feel more flexy than actual Sentinel role, and KJ on Haven (which is fair because Haven is lurking factory).

I've been noticing the european valorant currently seems to use less traditional sentinels while americas seems to stick a bit more with the old meta, which is interesting, but we're still seeing some different picks now. Gotta keep in mind the teams have been developing since november so we don't really have a post-tejo impression yet, probably will have by Masters/Stage 1

Overall i think it will just go with playstyle, if the IGL and coach want to play it more like a classical FPS (again, Saadhak is a advocate for no-sentinel and wanted Loud to play more like CS) or want to abuse more of conservative tactics. Once the meta takes shape later this year we will have an answer of which one is best. I feel like Riot has changed the way they do sentinels and either buff the old ones or their pickrate will fade (Specially KJ - I feel like Cypher has an advantage because he can replace his trips very quickly so he can avoid util bombing more easily). But who knows, they might just fucking buff neon again and Cypher becomes a must pick, xD

#18
Anguibok
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I definitely agree with you it's a good retrospective. I think now Cypher can't make unavoidable trap against a composition that isn't able to break spells, he also has loose a lot, so both may suffer a lot from 2024, I still think Deadlock is puretash, and I think Vyze is the only good choice in Sentinel especially because she can help in atk, she can replace the initiator flashor allowing team to have 2ctrl, 1 diver, 1 flasher, 1 1 reveal, that is for me one of the best comp

To be frank, I dont think Cypher an KJ are sane for the game, so it's better if they disapear

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