Phoenix Rework idea

#1

NexusNomad

Nobody plays him in pro (except jingg because he cannot play any other useful agent) and people hardly play him in ranked so I had to come up with this. First off, it's pretty obvious he can never compete with jett, raze or yoru so it's best if we change his class from duelist to controller. The abilities need to be reworked obviously.

C ability: This is now his signature ability but it is similar to harbors wall but instead of slowing it straight up damages both enemies and allies or it'd be too powerful.

E ability: No longer the signature ability but charges increased from 1 >> 2. It works the same but it no longer heals him but he is the only one unaffected by it.

Q ability: Charges decreased from 2 >> 1. The ability is completely changed and is now similar to omens paranoia but instead of near sighting them, it burns them where the enemies caught in it burn for 15 seconds where they deal 2 hp/sec for first 8 seconds and 5 hp/sec for next 7 seconds. Fortunately you can counter it by extinguishing it by pressing F where you do a separate animation while your gun isn't equipped for 2 seconds.

X ability: Remains same since clove can revive herself so it's fair for Phoenix to have an extra life. But charges increased from 6 >> 7. (Don't ask me how this is a controller ability).

Thoughts?

#2

ShubhVLRT

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Yeah, stay in silver

#4

NexusNomad

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Y?

#8

ShubhVLRT

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Your only smoke ability is a wall?

#9

Hynix

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these suggestions were so bad but if it's bait it's an 8/8

#3

Hynix

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This is now his signature ability but it is similar to harbors wall but instead of slowing it straight up damages both enemies and allies or it'd be too powerful.

i had a stroke trying to read this part

anyway two mollies is dumb, yall want to bring back viper two mollies era so bad, worse since phoenix dps is more
q ability sucks dick, phoenix becomes even worse of an agent
why increase ult points for ult when it's the only reason phoenix is even slightly viable...

#10

NexusNomad

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But the only problem with Phoenix Molly is, unlike viper who can use her Molly from far, Phoenix cannot so he cannot play back for lineups.
Q ability is real good since the enemy would be forced to swing and take a fight or lose 51 hp for no reason. Or he could hide and extinguish it but could be caught off guard. And it could be used to stop site hits or retakes for a few seconds potentially.
His ultimate is way too strong for a 6 orb ultimate.

#5

PandaZ

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wtf is that Q ability this ain’t Pokémon

#6

gold2peak

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never think again

#7

WhatADrag

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remove him, he is useless

#11

flantern

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i actually considered this when i read the title but then immediately saw the username of who posted this

#12

Just_some_loser

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honestly, 8/8 bait, had a lot of fun reading this

#14

DSGFan

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Don't delude yourself, this guy is 100% serious.

#13

DSGFan

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This is the most terrible rework idea I have ever seen for him, I'm sorry.

Literally this is all you need for him to be instantly more viable:

-make his wall go through/over things like Harbor's wall

-speed up the equip/deployment time on his molly by a bit

He instantly becomes much more usable.

#16

NexusNomad

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No
He isn't viable because he has no ability which helps him dive into a site without him dying or taking a huge damage. Jett has a dash, raze has satchel and yoru has tp. Phoenix should walk into the site and you saw eg anti strat loud on ascent. All you need is an Odin spamming choke points and your team never enters the site.

#17

DSGFan

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Phoenix doesn't need to be an entry duelist. You should never be playing him as primary duelist. Yoru can be played as primary entry, but it requires a lot of planning and practice. Otherwise, Phoenix will be played in the same way yoru is played most of the time: a secondary support duelist.

#19

NexusNomad

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There are few reasons why you'd play Phoenix as your secondary duelist. Yoru does everything better than Phoenix as a secondary duelist. He can lurk and tp back to the team, he can flash for the team, his ultimate is literally a free site for his team. Meanwhile Phoenix flashes are only for himself, he cannot lurk, his ultimate is a hit or a miss and he cannot enter site. If you intend to run a double duelist it's best to run a yoru instead of Phoenix on literally all maps. Which is why I came up with a class change idea.

#23

DSGFan

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Yoru does not do everything better than phoenix. Yoru's ult gets more info than phoenix ult, but you can't kill while in it. Phoenix's ult is lower cost and easier to snowball.

Phoenix can molly a choke or a hard-to-clear position, which yoru cannot do. Phoenix can cut down sightlines with his wall, which yoru cannot do.

Phoenix can flash for his teammates. His flash and skye flash are the only ones you can directly curve around a corner.

It is not "better" to always run yoru. Your gameplan has to change, but phoenix provides his own strengths to make that gameplan viable.

#28

NexusNomad

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If you watch pro games particularly on breeze you will notice how enemies leave the site open when yoru ults there. The main reason being the util combo with other agents makes it extremely difficult to hold a site when the enemies know your exact location in real time.

You do understand that most Phoenix players use their mollies for site executes so they rarely have a Molly to stop a site retake at choke points and it doesn't even last long like brim or kj or viper Molly.

Yoru can flash for his teammates from far away and not standing next to them. Meanwhile Phoenix should literally stand next to you for him to flash and if he doesn't swing after flashing he is literally baiting you.

#31

DSGFan

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Yes, yoru's kit plays into fakes/lurks or big planned out coordination. Phoenix plays into team fights with overwhelming site takes. One is not inherently better than the other.

You do understand that teams can play different styles for different maps right? And the best teams are not those who play a certain style, but understand the strengths and weaknesses of their own and opponent's styles and play to that?

Phoenix's molly is restrictive, which is precisely why I pointed to it needing to receive a buff alongside his wall. These are the only changes required to make Phoenix much more viable.

If you watch pro games, you will find examples of teams properly using Phoenix. PRX had the best Pearl of 2023 at champs, with a Phoenix. They beat EG in the upper final, who was running Yoru on Pearl. I rest my case.

#15

butterdog_dogwithdabutter

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never cook again, you say ur reworking phoenix so that people pick him but ur literally doing the opposite, stay in bronze

#18

moatz

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N0vi flair checks out. To counter ppl not picking him, ur tryna make him worse 😭

#20

Jivko

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how did you manage to make phoenix worse

#21

NexusNomad

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How did he become worse? His competition changed jett/raze/yoru/neon to viper/harbor. Even if he will not become a popular pick in pro play, he will start seeing him picked often in ranked like clove. His abilities would literally terrorize low to mid elo lobbies.

#24

bonkashi

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you are insane what are you talking about

#22

bonkashi

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genuinely the worst character ever with these changes. omen flash that does 51 total damage and can be extinguished? no more self heal, just a damaging harbour wall, more charges on his ult?
never set foot in the kitchen again holy shit

#25

cloudberry

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Here were my ideas, posted around two weeks ago:

Blaze (C) no longer stops when it comes into contact with a wall (i.e. it can go through walls)
Blaze (C) no longer deals damage to allies
Curveball (Q) cost decreased from 250 >> 200 credits [this one was slightly controversial]
Hot Hands (E) charges increased from 1 >> 2 (second charges costs 200 credits) [this one was very controversial]
Run It Back (X) duration increased from 10 >> 12 seconds

#27

BoF7ooM

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12 seconds is ridiculously busted lol. Blaze going through walls is good. That would be a welcomed changed. Idk about 2 mollies.

#29

cloudberry

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Do you really think 2 extra seconds on the ult will realistically make much of a difference? My thoughts when adding it were: you could probably clear an extra angle or two with this change. I don't really see what you could do beyond that, other than the occasional highlight play

#26

BoF7ooM

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The only part I agree with is jingg cannot play any useful agents.

#30

Anguibok

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The distinction between flash of duelflash that can selflash themself, and iniflash, that is a longuer flash is bad, just standardize iniflash and duelflash as they did for smoker, make everyone able to pick on their flash and make every flash dure same time, and it will be an amélioration

#32

After

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pheonix is fine lil bro

https://tracker.gg/valorant/profile/riot/despu%C3%A9S%23img/overview

edit: don't know why anyone doesnt play him best self flash character has good tech best ult in game to clear site his wall makes getting site so good and flashing through wall to run through is broken idk man lock in bro. (dont play as much as i used to since i am a functioning adult in society)

#33

LycheeBlade

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phoenix is fine.

only change i could think of giving him would be to have his wall extended some amount and/or make it able to go through walls so it's a little easier to use on entry. the neon wall by comparison just reeks of power creep.

also, not every agent needs to be used by the pros. phoenix is a fine soloq agent

#34

humble_y0y_10k

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who let bro cook?