TBH I need some opinions. According to Riot Sinatraa didn't cooperate fully to the investigation. Yet if he rly just was like "nah" to an investigation wouldn't that instantly incriminate him and make everyone think he's guilty. I'm confused on how split the community is on him and can kinda see bot sides from the weird evidence Cleoh provided and the fact that she had evidience but didn't pursue anything legal. Yet Sinatraa also worked against the investigation and has a long history of being toxic. I'm dumb and need help.
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Real Sinatraa Take
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khayso [#4]Provide sources of Sinatraa not co operating with the investigation. In my belief he got his own lawyers to solve the case and co-operated fully becauswe it is in his benefit to clear his name for a return to the competitive scene.
how about the fact that riot explicitly said he didn't cooperate with the investigation
https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/
khayso [#4]Provide sources of Sinatraa not co operating with the investigation. In my belief he got his own lawyers to solve the case and co-operated fully becauswe it is in his benefit to clear his name for a return to the competitive scene.
he literally got the 6 month ban because he didn't cooperate
Ok heres my take, Audio is weird imo most likely a sexual assult case but completely ignoring that there is a tonne of other stuff in the document (that to the best of my knowledge) he never refuted such as forcing her to get a coil so he didnt have to wear contracption (which is an incredibly intrustive as the doctor like literally puts it in and painful procedure). Theres other controlling stuff in the document thats hella weird and that if those are true (which there is reciepts off in the doc such as actual reciepts for the coil and messages) thats enough to make him a shit person so fuck him and shit ppl can fuck off
There's a large amount of unverified evidence that would be damning.
RIOT can't make a solid decision, since they nor anybody outside the two involved have the full story. They banned him the first time because he claimed to have the whole video, but didn't. (this is off his tweet)
The ban is over, the evidence still exists, but there's no conclusion. It's a difficult decision to make.
I think it's best to stay aware of it, but not rehash the same old, overdone discussions that inevitably devolve into sexism and other unsavory stuff.
not involving yourself in it is actually the best way. if you REALLY want another take, heres mine:
I think he did it, the audio that Cleo released is really incriminating, but the thing is Riot no longer has a reason to keep him banned. They originally banned him for not cooperating with the investigation, and I think that if he was really innocent, he would have just cooperated and gotten it over with. The fact that she didn't pursue a case doesn't mean he's innocent.
I don't like him, and I wont root for any team that signs him, but I don't think he should be permanently banned from playing until he's proven guilty.
SeaCDragon [#12]not involving yourself in it is actually the best way. if you REALLY want another take, heres mine:
I think he did it, the audio that Cleo released is really incriminating, but the thing is Riot no longer has a reason to keep him banned. They originally banned him for not cooperating with the investigation, and I think that if he was really innocent, he would have just cooperated and gotten it over with. The fact that she didn't pursue a case doesn't mean he's innocent.
I don't like him, and I wont root for any team that signs him, but I don't think he should be permanently banned from playing until he's proven guilty.
A rare thinking Sen fan. I agree completely.
trembolonaRage [#7]She has an onlyfans account
I hope this answers the whole question for you
based
LocoMonteiro [#13]Sinatraa wasnt convicted, and last time i checked, authorities and the court decide what happens, not the army of keyboard warriors on VLR and Twitter so i think its time to just forget about this worn out topic, the girl refused to go to court.... nothing else they could do
except in a lot of cases (espicially sexual assult cases) the justice system is imcompetent i mean thats the whole reason the original Me too movement started its very difficult to prove smth when theres only 2 ppl in a room and it happened 6 +months ago because they were scared to talk intially
edit: moved the + sign
PoohShiesty [#15]People should stop taking sides, leave it to the actual authorities to deal with it.
let people do what they want, doesn’t matter anyway both sides have backed off
Jazyy [#8]how about the fact that riot explicitly said he didn't cooperate with the investigation
https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/
I'm not reading this, but feel free to reply if I'm wrong and I'll read a line of text. Wasn't his "not cooperating" the fact that he said he had a full video he was going to release, but then it wound up that Sinatraa (said he) was lying and didn't have it, thus it meant he didn't cooperate by handing over the video he said he had.
TheHardStuckImmortal [#9]he literally got the 6 month ban because he didn't cooperate
Huh, I guess I missed the news. Regardless, Riot does not represent the law and I'm still awaiting a court case. Sexual abuse should be punished if proven guilty, I have yet to hear of Sinatraa's sentence.
trembolonaRage [#7]She has an onlyfans account
I hope this answers the whole question for you
classic brazil incel no wonder brazilians acts like that one nip coach all brazilians the same kkkk then cry about keznit Hahaha
khayso [#21]Huh, I guess I missed the news. Regardless, Riot does not represent the law and I'm still awaiting a court case. Sexual abuse should be punished if proven guilty, I have yet to hear of Sinatraa's sentence.
Not a single person is advocating for legal consequences. The bar for evidence should be much lower in the court of public opinion. There is definitive seeming evidence of Sinatraa committing a heinous act, he has done nothing except make himself look guilty in the time since, and has provided 0 refuting evidence. He, however, has lied about having refuting evidence. If you genuinely think that no consequences should befall anyone for something like this unless they are proven guilty in a court of law than I don't know what to tell you.
hiyo [#3]Sinatraa is a good player sure. I think a court of justice doesn't have to convict him for people with average IQ to have some comprehension. I also think people can change, just not >a year. I want sinatraa to prove that he's changed, admit his guilt, and move on.
common hiyo W
fontea [#10]Ok heres my take, Audio is weird imo most likely a sexual assult case but completely ignoring that there is a tonne of other stuff in the document (that to the best of my knowledge) he never refuted such as forcing her to get a coil so he didnt have to wear contracption (which is an incredibly intrustive as the doctor like literally puts it in and painful procedure). Theres other controlling stuff in the document thats hella weird and that if those are true (which there is reciepts off in the doc such as actual reciepts for the coil and messages) thats enough to make him a shit person so fuck him and shit ppl can fuck off
yeah sinatraa was a shitty person because of everything he did to her during the relationship, even ignoring the part where he assaulted her. thats enough reason for the community to be not as accepting of him. however, that was like 3 years ago so maybe he's changed idk. hes got a gf so he definitely has at least a little bit
idkmate99 [#20]I'm not reading this, but feel free to reply if I'm wrong and I'll read a line of text. Wasn't his "not cooperating" the fact that he said he had a full video he was going to release, but then it wound up that Sinatraa (said he) was lying and didn't have it, thus it meant he didn't cooperate by handing over the video he said he had.
That's what I know off the original situation too yeah
Jazyy [#23]Not a single person is advocating for legal consequences. The bar for evidence should be much lower in the court of public opinion. There is definitive seeming evidence of Sinatraa committing a heinous act, he has done nothing except make himself look guilty in the time since, and has provided 0 refuting evidence. He, however, has lied about having refuting evidence. If you genuinely think that no consequences should befall anyone for something like this unless they are proven guilty in a court of law than I don't know what to tell you.
Yes, he was an asshole. I hope he's changed. I don't care because I don't watch him, but for the people around him.
At least people should stop calling him a rapist. (By the same token, stop calling Cleo a clout chaser for making an OF.)
Here's the definitive seeming evidence of the heinous act. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1g4WoK2uiY
I won't tell you to draw your own conclusions. There's no point. However, I don't think rape is clear.
This doesn't mean she wasn't raped, rape is hard to prove. I just don't think it will stand in court.
(Edit: last part)
Mjtchell [#16]Neither party were cooperative, the case was non-conclusive.
Only people who will ever know the full truth is those two so there is no point and inserting your own opinions.
This is a W right here
Pyo [#28]Yes, he was an asshole. I hope he's changed. I don't care because I don't watch him, but for the people around him.
At least people should stop calling him a rapist. (By the same token, stop calling Cleo a clout chaser for making an OF.)
Here's the definitive seeming evidence of the heinous act. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1g4WoK2uiY
I won't tell you to draw your own conclusions. There's no point. However, I don't think rape is clear.This doesn't mean she wasn't raped, rape is hard to prove. I just don't think it will stand in court.
(Edit: last part)
I do not think that Sinatraa would be proven guilty in a court of law. I don't think that the evidence is enough to make him go to jail. I do think that the evidence is enough to prove that he should be excised from the valorant community.
trembolonaRage [#7]She has an onlyfans account
I hope this answers the whole question for you
share link
Riot is not a court of law
Who wants to share very private details of their sex life to an e-sports company? Obviously no one, guilty or not guilty, Riot has tons of leaks, if Sinatraa gives full info videos to Riot maybe they would end up published on the internet.
Most of the guys didn't realise that.
fontea [#18]except in a lot of cases (espicially sexual assult cases) the justice system is imcompetent i mean thats the whole reason the original Me too movement started its very difficult to prove smth when theres only 2 ppl in a room and it happened 6 +months ago because they were scared to talk intially
edit: moved the + sign
With me too and feminism, we will need a notary to attest the sexual relation is fully consent
hiyo [#3]Sinatraa is a good player sure. I think a court of justice doesn't have to convict him for people with average IQ to have some comprehension. I also think people can change, just not >a year. I want sinatraa to prove that he's changed, admit his guilt, and move on.
How does coming back to competitive scene proves he's changed? Shouldn't it be the other way around? He needs to prove he's changed to come back to the competitive scene.
And just because he's changed doesn't mean he's free from consequences. And don't say that being banned from pro play is enough consequence, cause he got to develop his brand and averaged 10k viewers every stream and making that much money doesn't look like a consequence to me.
Add the fact that he never really refuted all the claims against him.
dali_ato [#40]How does coming back to competitive scene proves he's changed? Shouldn't it be the other way around? He needs to prove he's changed to come back to the competitive scene.
And just because he's changed doesn't mean he's free from consequences. And don't say that being banned from pro play is enough consequence, cause he got to develop his brand and averaged 10k viewers every stream and making that much money doesn't look like a consequence to me.
Add the fact that he never really refuted all the claims against him.
sorry if wording is off- I meant that he should prove that he changed. I didn't mention him coming back specifically but he should if he wants to ever be on a roster ever again.
I'm not sure about the consequence of 6months ban but I'm not sure what else Riot can do as a 3rd-party. We need to hold him and the org that signs him accountable.
he is innocent because he was accused of something for which there was no evidence (that's a fact), and after both recognized being toxic in their relationship, they took therapy, they have every right to move on, they both made mistakes but no crime
it's simple than we think, we have nothing to blame
hiyo [#3]Sinatraa is a good player sure. I think a court of justice doesn't have to convict him for people with average IQ to have some comprehension. I also think people can change, just not >a year. I want sinatraa to prove that he's changed, admit his guilt, and move on.
It's been more than a year that he did everything he was accused for. I'm sure it's even been over 3 years now
hiyo [#41]sorry if wording is off- I meant that he should prove that he changed. I didn't mention him coming back specifically but he should if he wants to ever be on a roster ever again.
I'm not sure about the consequence of 6months ban but I'm not sure what else Riot can do as a 3rd-party. We need to hold him and the org that signs him accountable.
Oh ok, my bad. Got a little confused there. Yeah, I agree that riot can't do much and I don't really think they're a legitimate party that should be involved in investigations like this. Decisions involving the status of the player in pro scene are the only real action that they can do.
Sinatraa barely faced any consequences from his actions and he hasn't even refuted most of the claims against him.
Getting banned from pro play was barely a consequence for him. During the time he was banned, he got to develop his brand as a content creator and he averaged 10k viewers every stream. Making that much money while being a suspect of sexual assault doesn't sit right with me.
JustHunter [#43]It's been more than a year that he did everything he was accused for. I'm sure it's even been over 3 years now
What does that change if the person himself doesn't change? Sinatraa hasn't admitted his guilt, issued inflammatory/gaslighting statements, and continues to deny accusations.
He doesn't seem like he's changed all that much for that period of time. It shouldn't wither away until he's actually done something.
dali_ato [#46]Sinatraa barely faced any consequences from his actions and he hasn't even refuted most of the claims against him.
Getting banned from pro play was barely a consequence for him. During the time he was banned, he got to develop his brand as a content creator and he averaged 10k viewers every stream. Making that much money while being a suspect of sexual assault doesn't sit right with me.
This was suppose to be a reply idk why it came out as a separate comment lol
Edit: I just turned it into a whole new comment.
JustHunter [#43]It's been more than a year that he did everything he was accused for. I'm sure it's even been over 3 years now
Doesn't mean he's free from facing the consequences.
hiyo [#47]What does that change if the person himself doesn't change? Sinatraa hasn't admitted his guilt, issued inflammatory/gaslighting statements, and continues to deny accusations.
He doesn't seem like he's changed all that much for that period of time. It shouldn't wither away until he's actually done something.
Well I mean again I can't say but it's been quite a while and maybe he was a different person at the time. Also there's really no conclusive evidence that he did all she said he did. At worst there were a few confirmations of "abuse" and that stuff I don't remember him ever denying.
Ofc the girl could just pull back up the investigation but so far nothing so maybe they talked abt it in private
dali_ato [#50]Doesn't mean he's free from facing the consequences.
I didn't say he was it's amazing how everyone assumes things like this
SeaCDragon [#12]not involving yourself in it is actually the best way. if you REALLY want another take, heres mine:
I think he did it, the audio that Cleo released is really incriminating, but the thing is Riot no longer has a reason to keep him banned. They originally banned him for not cooperating with the investigation, and I think that if he was really innocent, he would have just cooperated and gotten it over with. The fact that she didn't pursue a case doesn't mean he's innocent.
I don't like him, and I wont root for any team that signs him, but I don't think he should be permanently banned from playing until he's proven guilty.
very good take.
JustHunter [#52]I didn't say he was it's amazing how everyone assumes things like this
It was implied. You were attempting to brush off the issue because "it was a long time ago".
What was the point of your comment then, if not to defend sinatraa?
I feel we must all move on from this , as someone who thinks the accusations may be true considering the evidence but the lack of a clear judgment after a year at this point is really not helping anyone, for one it makes cleo's life harder until she gets justice and she won't be able to be mentally healthy butif jay is proven not guilty he just lost a year of his career for no reason and as a person who's been supporting sinatraa since 2019 it really pisses me of(tbh if sinatraa is found guilty then I'm still gonna be pissed to find out I've been a fan for a sexual assaulter for yrs) , imo he needs to get back to pro play to change his image , only that way will ppl stop talking abt him for his ban and its reasons and instead for his ability as a player
Edit corrected some typos
SeaCDragon [#12]not involving yourself in it is actually the best way. if you REALLY want another take, heres mine:
I think he did it, the audio that Cleo released is really incriminating, but the thing is Riot no longer has a reason to keep him banned. They originally banned him for not cooperating with the investigation, and I think that if he was really innocent, he would have just cooperated and gotten it over with. The fact that she didn't pursue a case doesn't mean he's innocent.
I don't like him, and I wont root for any team that signs him, but I don't think he should be permanently banned from playing until he's proven guilty.
it's actually nice for once someone being real with the situation.
i_come_from_hltv [#55]FFS WHO IS IN THE FAKING WRONG THIS SHIT IS FAKING IDIOTIC
ONE SAYS THAT SHE HAS THE FAKING VIDEO AND WILL PROVE IT AT COURT AND SHE NO SHOW UP THEN ONE SINATRAA IS ALSO VERY CONFUSING I FSKING SWEAAR
fontea [#18]except in a lot of cases (espicially sexual assult cases) the justice system is imcompetent i mean thats the whole reason the original Me too movement started its very difficult to prove smth when theres only 2 ppl in a room and it happened 6 +months ago because they were scared to talk intially
edit: moved the + sign
It's not that the justice system is incompetent, it's that it's "innocent until proven guilty" and in most sexual assault cases unfortunately there's a lack of evidence. It sucks and I feel bad because a lot of people who are guilty go free, but the idea is that we try not to convict an innocent person, and even that happens at times, although rare.
DogeForPres [#61]Idk man, I supported Cleo until the moment she backed out of court. That screams liar more than not cooperating with a game company investigation. I would recommend just staying out of it, nothing good comes out of it
Wait, I thought she's still in litigation I don't think she has pulled out
DogeForPres [#61]Idk man, I supported Cleo until the moment she backed out of court. That screams liar more than not cooperating with a game company investigation. I would recommend just staying out of it, nothing good comes out of it
Rape cases are annoying as fuck, my guess is that she just realized that no matter the mental trauma she got from sinatraa, the time and effort required for this case is just bullshit. Police investigations of Rape cases are also often incompetent as well adding insult injury. The police would have probably left the case inconclusive given a couple months as well. Furthermore she was getting death threats and shit during this time period, which I believe both sides were getting. So yea, there's a couple reasons, but I'm guessing she just didn't think going through the justice system is worth it to reciprocate her pain if she is not lying, which is reasonable.
hiyo [#3]Sinatraa is a good player sure. I think a court of justice doesn't have to convict him for people with average IQ to have some comprehension. I also think people can change, just not >a year. I want sinatraa to prove that he's changed, admit his guilt, and move on.
if hes not guilty why admit lmao
Giannero [#27]He didn't cooperate with riot, but willed to get the case to court, which in my eyes makes me believe he wasn't actually guilty, plus no guilty verdict being declared from a court, makes him innocent. Innocent until proven guilty
Investigations are where they get the evidence. If you provide no evidence and actively do no cooperate, they're not going to get anything on you, especially evidence for Rape Cases are hard to prove. Also inconclusive does not equal innocent from public opinion, it means that the investigation was incompetent asf, and they don't know. This is not our situation to talk anymore probably, but innocent until proven guilty is a shit argument, we are not in a court room so that shit logic doesn't apply here.
Also the case never went to court, Cleo's mental health was deteriorating from getting multiple death threats already, which is a reasonable reason to just pull out and just not deal with this anymore.
Also where did you find the evidence that he willed to get the case to court, I don't remember that, but please send that to me if possible because I really don't want to get my facts wrong here.
Asphyxia [#66]Investigations are where they get the evidence. If you provide no evidence and actively do no cooperate, they're not going to get anything on you, especially evidence for Rape Cases are hard to prove. Also inconclusive does not equal innocent from public opinion, it means that the investigation was incompetent asf, and they don't know. This is not our situation to talk anymore probably, but innocent until proven guilty is a shit argument, we are not in a court room so that shit logic doesn't apply here.
Also the case never went to court, Cleo's mental health was deteriorating from getting multiple death threats already, which is a reasonable reason to just pull out and just not deal with this anymore.
Also where did you find the evidence that he willed to get the case to court, I don't remember that, but please send that to me if possible because I really don't want to get my facts wrong here.
well the only fact u got wrong is saying innocent until proven guilty is a shit argument. its not, its the only argument. Im not saying hes innocent. but the bottom line is we dont know. and thats just all we can actually say
nateswango [#69]well the only fact u got wrong is saying innocent until proven guilty is a shit argument. its not, its the only argument. Im not saying hes innocent. but the bottom line is we dont know. and thats just all we can actually say
Nah it is a pretty shit arg, but I do agree with your take on the idea. We don't know. Though we ought to proceed with caution, since it's unknown, don't send death threats, but there's always a possibility that they were in the wrong, but don't send death threats still, because death threats are bad. You know what, I'm practically just saying death threats bad, and I feel like that's the best bottom line, hate mail and such is absolutely horrible as well, but hopefully there's no more death threats to either side, hopefully.
The reason why the innocent until proven guilty arg is kinda garbo in this scenario is because: not court setting(public opinion), never went to court, and also investigation didn't go well(inconclusive). I usually do think it's a fantastic mindset, but it most definitely is a very weak arg in this scenario, and would be torn apart by any sort of debater(except for Big Questions or Congress lol).
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