A5 - Turns out you were right about cauanzin, I did not know that. The Point in B2 is still very strong regardless as he obv was not on the level (experience or accomplishment-wise, never been to a final) as either of the people he replaced. But I am fair and will update (see the bottom)

A6 - It still broke, so it's still factually correct. Also notice I never used this in a "B" to reach a serious conclusion. I just kept it in for symbolism.

A9/10 - First of all, its all still factually correct. Secondly, that's definitely not an ordinary bad game. A guy who had 2 kills in a 13-1 loss had a little more than double his (original) rating. Rating might also not capture walling your own team on a site exec.

C3 - The metaphor is perfectly valid. Single elim has the exact problem you described. It's not a format designed to select for the best team. Riot obviously went for it to be able to run an event with every team (no qualifiers) logistically (cuz it would obv take forever). From Riot's official valorant esports page, emphasis mine:

We wanted to kick off the next era of the VALORANT Champions Tour with an epic tournament that brought together the entire VALORANT community. With LOCK//IN our goal is to lay storytelling groundwork for the 2023 season while thrilling fans with high stakes competition. To build the largest tournament in the history of our sport, we had to consider different formats that could accommodate the largest number of teams we've ever had at a single event. After reviewing many options, it became clear that to be as globally inclusive as we wanted, a single elimination format was the direction we needed to take. While we think this is the best way to kick off the 2023 season, we plan to return to a double elimination format for future international events.

Not enough to convince you? What about single elim + preseason (Rosters with literally 0 match experience prior to the event)? Not enough? How about anecdotal evidence: Do you think the strength of Furia's performance vs FNC and KC's vs LOUD at Lock-in were solidly representative of their true strength and should be taken as a serious result?

not FREESM 😔

thats bait brother

or he's on fentanyl, 1 of the 2

Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa

SEN CLEARS FRAUDNATIC

2 > 1*

EVEN REDGAR CLEARS

1> 1*

Fnatic goes in the history books as one of the greatest teams of all time, and disagreeing is objectively incorrect.

Prove it then

This is wrong. It was an official part of the 2023 circuit, as it was held by riot, but it was 100% pre-season nevertheless

You know I required a source, but I'll let it slide this time

Nope, it was definitely preseason. It was held before all three leagues, Americas, EMEA, and Pacific commenced their seasons. You can easily verify that here.

It's also not very comparable to the Kickoff events of this (2024) year, as those:

1. Were all officially called Kickoff
2. Were all held domestically
3. All included a double elim group stage, a play-in stage, and playoff stage

Now, Lock-In was the first part of VCT 2023 Circuit, but that doesn't prove much. It was a special, one-time showcase tourney meant to show off the teams and the new franchise system and create hype around it (which it did). Even still, it was obviously pre-season, and saying it wasn't because it was the first official part of the circuit is like saying the NBA pre-season isn't preseason because it's on the Official NBA Schedule.

100%, without a doubt, pre-season, and the second line is proof, the rest is just context.

got closer to franchising than optic tho

Read the original thats linked at the top

The 0-5 zombs thing (which they made respectable by making it close) was their biggest accomplishment prior to franchising

ALLAT WARNING

https://www.vlr.gg/393738/fnatic-was-never-great

Below is every falsifiable/verifiable claim from my masterpiece, in order

A1. FNC had an 0-5 record vs zombs
A2. Lock-In was a preseason tourney
A3. Lock-In was meant to showcase the teams in the new franchising system
A4. Lock-In had single elimination format
A5. LOUD exchanged their two best performers from their champs run for rookies
A6. The trophy broke
A7. Liquid beat Fnatic at the end of the EMEA League
A8. Fnatic won the first map vs NRG 13-9, and it was tied 6-6 at the half.
A9. Ardiss had a 0.21 rating on the 2nd map (at the time it was written, with the new rating it actually fell to 0.16)
A10. In the DRX 13-1 game vs Fnatic on Bind, Boaster had 0 kills until the final round and a 0.44 rating (at the time it was written, 0.31 with the new rating system)
A11. PRX played Tokyo with a pubg streamer instead of the Pacific MVP Something, due to visa issues
A12. With something, PRX outperformed FNC at the next three events after Tokyo (Champs 23, Madrid, Shanghai)
A13. At Champs 23, PRX made Grand Finals, beating EG in upper finals and LOUD along the way
A14. FNC did not attend Madrid, and PRX beat both teams that outperformed Fnatic for those slots
A15. At Shanghai, PRX beat EDG and lost (super closely) to 100T
A16. At Shanghai, FNC were winless
A17. PRX beat GEN.G domestically
A18. FNC lost to FUT at shanghai
A19. At Tokyo, EG's Star player Demon1 had visa issues
A20. Demon1's addition to EG's roster turned around their season
A21. Demon1 would go on to be the Champs MVP
A22. Due to Visa Issues, Demon1 was unable to practice with his team until a last minute return
A23. Across every map played between EG and FNC in both series, the only maps that didn't come down to two rounds - which is the closest possible win margin in valorant - were Fracture for EG and Lotus for Fnatic

Below is every claim that was implied or inferred. These are points that are not statements of fact in and of themselves and are ultimately subjective, but are directly supported or reached by reasoning from evidence above.

B1. Fnatic's first run, in which they made finals and played two close series in a respectable attempt, was their best achievement pre-franchising. This run ultimately had an 0-5 record vs zombs (A1)
B2. They won Lock-In via a historic choke, which had something to do with swapping out 2 elite players with rookies (A5)
B3. Riot didn't think Lock-In was an event as serious as/on par with Masters or Champions (A2 A3 A4)
B4. The first map vs NRG was a fair, solid win, but they stomped the second in large part due to Ardiss trolling (A8 A9 A10)
B5. PRX was significantly nerfed without Something, and there is strong evidence (for about a year straight) that suggested that they would've beaten FNC at Tokyo with him (A11 A12 A13 A14 A15 A16 A17 A18)
B6. Similarly, EG was significantly nerfed by not being able to practice with Demon1 before the event, and there is strong evidence that suggested that they would have beaten FNC at Tokyo if not for that situation ( A19 A20 A21 A22 A23)

Below is every pure opinion expressed, which are not directly backed up by verifiable claim

C1 The rest of the EMEA was garbo leading to the hype train getting out of control - 'Name the 2nd best EMEA team of 23' and what they accomplished'
C2. Liquid beating them was a fluke - I don't think I have to defend this
C3. Having a 'hard' format doesn't by itself make an event prestigious or winning it a real achievement, or necessarily select for the best team - 'a random agent select tourney would be by far the hardest event ever hosted, doesn't change that winning it would be a cosmetic achievement, worthless in comparison to events with real formats and qualifiers (ie: designed to select for the best team)'
C4. Saying they only could've lost to LOUD is just an excuse for why they weren't better than any of the top 3 - 'No, they lost because they were the 4th best team and they ran into the 3rd best team, who smoked them.'

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You read the title. Now's your chance to prove me wrong. You have three ways:

For anything in the 'A' section - Prove that its incorrect, source required

For anything in the 'B' section - Make a serious, evidence backed explanation against the conclusion. Be specific

"They wouldn't have beat them at tokyo anyways" isn't enough.

"I don't think they would have beat them at tokyo because their style is a matchup problem" is a start.

"I don't think they would have beat them at tokyo because their style is a matchup problem, which you can see from..." is valid.

Ideal responses will also explain why the "A's" don't support the "B's"

For anything in the "C's" - Just explain what you think is wrong and why

Make sure you include which point(s) you're contesting. Serious replies will be met with a serious reply, and vice versa.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All Successful Rebuttals

_amBrian noted that Cauanzin wasn't a rookie (internationally), as he had one international event under his belt from his time at NIP (A5)

damn i never heard about the ping stuff until now

Lol then i probably got it from defending my magnum opus "Fnatic was never great"

There was like 3 hours where i was replying to 5 different people at a time

hmmm, ignore this its a test

update: looks like ur right ~ 30 second cooldown

Lotus and Abyss are worse, icebox is pretty bad tho

i don't know and don't really care

never understood what stars do anyways, don't you just get them after a certain number of posts or upvotes or something?

On today's episode of the twilight zone, in a parallel universe:

It's 2023. Fnatic's Alfajer is the EMEA MVP and Fnatic is the #1 EMEA team heading into Masters Tokyo. But tragedy strikes for fnatic, due to undisclosed circumstances his visa gets denied and he is unable to attend Tokyo. In their desperate scramble, the best they can do is pickup a guy named CGRS, a pubg streamer not very well known outside his region.

Tokyo arrives, despite an admirable performance from FNC CGRS - given what was expected from him - it wasn't enough, he was no alfajer. In fact they lose so bad to PRX, the eventual winner, that the PRX fans all taunt about how 'Forsaken only decided to not 13-0 them because he likes Chronicle'. They end up 3rd despite their situation. It wasn't fair. They weren't complete.

But then, just a month later, they were. The time for redemption had come. Fnatic storm through the upper bracket. With their superstar alfajer back, they reserve themselves a spot in the grand finals with a win over EG. PRX had fallen to LOUD twice, in two very decisive losses. FNC had beaten that team in their first real playoff game after a free win vs fut. FNC is playing the best they arguably ever have, but ultimately get 2nd.

At the next event, Masters Madrid, FNC is once again in attendance despite switching out Chronicle - one of their stars - for monyet due to military service. Alfajer is still one of the best players in the world. PRX, still fully intact, is missing from this event, unable to qualify over KC and TH, who become the #1 and #2 Pacific representatives. During the event FNC sends both of them home.

At the next event, Masters Shanghai, PRX is sent home winless in two games, after a loss to GEN.G and FUT. Fnatic had just beaten GEN.G in the domestic grand final before this event, and goes on to lose to G2, beat EDG, then ultimately get sent home by 100T in a series that was hard fought and decided at the very last moment. 100T was also the team that had absolutely fucking annihilated FUT.

This concludes this episode of the twilight zone, a narrative of something that never happened in our universe, but could tell us something about what did

no clue i didnt even notice lol

DRX 2-0 FPX

Minecraft clears

i'll start the lessons tommorrow

Dort will be here soon, you've summoned the demon

do you remember who grouped geng

Tragic, but I knew they weren't gonna win it all anyways. Spot belonged to OXG.

Cuz TSM had Myth Daequan and Hamlinz so im obligated to root for them

you really think they lost because they got anti-stratted? They got full anti-stratted on Lotus, Split, Ascent, Haven and Bind? Or are we having trouble admitting other teams were better?

Basically all the evidence points to full strength EG beating FNC at Tokyo

Something literally took them to champs finals immediately, and further than fnatic at 3 straight events.

Last line is a bit subjective, to be great in my book you have to be the best in the world at some point in time.

it was to safely retrieve the bomb, so that the AK player has to make a decision to stay or rotate

I TAKE BACK WHAT I SAID HOLY FUCK

That wasn't a fake

But yeah they aren't playing to win rn

You were typing in broken english so I thought you were using google translate

What is more unfair? Giving a trophy to a team that wasn't the best? Or calling it out?

glad we agree!

I don't hear no fat lady singing! (copium)

not gonna ascend playing like this anyways but we have hope!

A mod in the chat just confirmed that if tsm win they qualify

The whole story: They have 1 trophy (the worthless one broke) that they didn't deserve

In valorant the world championship is at the end of the season. They are masters winners, not world champions. But when they won their masters they were not the best.

a preseason, single elimination tournament with no qualifiers cannot be used to determine who the best team is. That is why it is not S-tier like masters or champions. It doesn't matter if liquidpedia says it is.

Tokyo was S-tier, but they were not the best team in the world when they won Tokyo. The entire post explains why PRX and EG were better.

Hopefully that translates well.

having a tiktok attention span is not a flex!

You are wrong, they never where champions, it was Acend, LOUD, EG, EDG

1. No team has won 2 champions
2. Fnatic hasn't even won 2 masters
3. Fnatic was not the best team in the world when they won their 1

TSM sucking will never change 1, 2, or 3.

Theres no way to prove it, obviously

But there are multiple lines of evidence that strongly suggest it:

No reason to believe Fnatic got worse from Tokyo -> Champs

Nerfed EG pushes fnatic hard at Tokyo (see the main post) -> 1 month later Full strength EG clearly better

Something is at his best, but can't attend -> 1 month later Full strength PRX is outperforming FNC, this continues for 3 events, even with the monyet iteration

skuba seems like an obv choice

i didn't say that, I said i'm gonna give it to them to keep the post short, since the focus is on FNC for this post. Theres many things you could say about the Acend run that bring its legitimacy into question, starting with the gifted win due to a cypher cam that could see 3 feet deeper than usual.

But I'm not gonna dive into all of that because the focus of this is FNC.
----------------------------------------------------------------

FNC absolutely slapped PRX in tokyo

Scroll up to the top of ur page and read the 'PRX' section.

EG 3-0 although there were 2 close maps it was still a 3-0

Scroll up to the top of ur page and read the 'EG' section.

Reading too hard? Heres a summary:
Full strength EG and PRX > FNC
FNC could not legitimately or definitively say they were better than them

There was a clear gap between the level PRX, EG, and LOUD were playing at - they were all fairly competitive with each other - vs Fnatic, who kinda got smacked by Loud. Yes X>Y>Z is never perfect, but the only way to judge how good teams are is to see who beats who and how they beat them. There is literally no other way.

Furthermore, do you see either of LOUD, EG, or PRX at that time getting 13-1'd on their own map pick by DRX (the perma 5-6th team)? We actually have the answer for EG.

Its pretty obvious the gap between EG, PRX, and LOUD was smaller than the gap between LOUD and FNC (and the rest).

Kru

you didn't get the news?

They were not dominant internationally, there are obvious reasons to believe that there was 2 teams in the world that would've beat them at Tokyo if not for out-of-game stuff. Also the form fall off is all hindsight, people only started saying that after they lost to save face (they didnt fall of btw they got exposed). Nobody at the time had any reason to believe they had fallen off in the 1 month between events.

Its not like they were playing matches at the time and started losing them like SEN after madrid. In the group stage they were still smacking teams in a way people expected of them. Nobody at the time suggested and nothing had indicated they fell off.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So what makes you think FNC would've beat the team that beat Loud if Loud beat them so resoundingly?
The maps between FNC and Loud were:
13-11
13-6 *FNC map pick

13-4 FNC map pick
13-9 FNCs only win
13-7
Thats not a close loss(es), meanwhile Loud vs PRX:

13-15
13-2 *Less god mode lmao
13-10

There was a big gap between the level FNC was playing at and the level Loud/PRX/EG was playing at

No matter what happens they're still not making idk what ur celebrating

No you cannot explain everything this way,

Sen Reykavic - you can not name any team in the world that was better at the time
EG Los Angeles - you can not name any team in the world that was better at the time
FPX Copenhagen - you can not name any team in the world that was better at the time (if PRX decides to troll thats their fault)
GMB Berlin - you can not name any team in the world that was better at the time
etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Optic 22' - You can make the case that FPX could've possibly beaten them at that time, given they were barred from attending and won the next event. This case is somewhat weak because FPX only played at that level for that one event, and optic was once again better at champs, and the core was better later on (and before). But you can definitely debate this. Optic's win has an asterisk on it
ACE 21' - This one is very tricky but i'll give it to them and leave it alone to keep this short

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FNC 23' - OH BOY. Both the star players from the other 2 regions(china didn't matter) best teams both have visa issues that affect team performance. One can't practice with his team and the other literally can't attend.

And EG pushes you that hard even with that going on?
And both of them are the finalists at the next tourney?
and they both beat the Loud, who smacked FNC?
And even though EG disbanded, PRX are better for than them for a long time afterwards?
Fraudulent win.

everyone lost to zombs in 2021

Yeah, up until franchising their greatest accomplishment was that first run where they made finals and went 0-5 vs zombs in total. We are in agreement.

ur acting like PRX NRG and EG having issues were fnatics fault they wouldve won regardless

they wouldve won regardless

So why didn't they win the next tourney just a month later when EG and PRX where at full strength?

Are you gonna pullout the classic 'only loud could beat them' excuse?

Also NRG was never gonna beat them, I just pointed out Ardiss played historically dogshit map 2

I only hate fnatic as a team/org and neon as an agent. My favorite player is also from EMEA

Nothing is bait - every single point from the 0-5 record vs Zombs to only 2 maps vs nerfed EG being decisive is true.

The only point that anybody ever seriously challenged was in #41 (saying the game basically came down to a smoke spam).

Everything else is coping or just trying to ignore the truth "iDc tHeY sTiLl hAvE 2 TrOpHiEs"

Thats a pretty big oversimplification. Its not like both teams aren't playing to build ult economy or that even then those rounds are guaranteed. I also don't think you understand what a miracle round is. This is a miracle round. Pulling off a man disadvantage by itself does not make a round a miracle round. Neither does winning an eco automatically make the round a miracle round. The only round that was really a miracle round on either side was the "New king of hell round" for EG (insane shots and heroics)