Skill ceiling problem

#1

Ibis

I don’t want to sound like a bitter cs fanboy, I didn’t even play it before valorant came out. Though imo riot need to find ways to make the game harder.
Just look at champions. Previously random players like dubstep, heat, keznit and most of their teammates even all are in similar worldclass level to NA/EU top players and it seems like everyone can reach it right now.

Even regions we considered as clearly worse since masters 1 showed that they have the same (or partly even better) skill as major regions.
It’s like everyone is good and only a very few people can stand out from that.
Riot increase skill ceiling somehow

#2

Ibis

-33

Frags

+

–

Im talking about mechanical skills right now. Ofc EMEA overall was still better but because of better structure, more preparation

#3

idkwhoshouldisupport

49

Frags

+

–

perhaps you are overlooking the fact that just cause you don't know em doesn't make them "random players"

#4

Ibis

-22

Frags

+

–

Dude you can pick top players from any minor region, like India,Japan,OCE and you won’t see big differences in their aiming ability and skills compared to players from the best regions (few exceptions)

#91

theKD

1

Frags

+

–

I do agree that Riot should increase the skill ceiling of the game to make it mechanically harder but your point about "random players" is completely wrong. If you watched or listened to any of the top players in NA/EU talk about the players from minor regions after Iceland or Berlin you would have heard them talk about how good some of those random players are. Specifically Heat and Keznit were hyped up to be really good during the scrim sets. Dubstep was catching bodies and showed up on stage when it mattered most. Downplaying the fact that they (minor region teams) were able to perform and keep up with top tier players from major regions and blaming the current skill ceiling is stupid. Especially when commentators and players alike are talking about how the skill difference between all the regions aren't as big as people once believed.

#8

ok_1_2_3

-13

Frags

+

–

https://www.hltv.org/player/10771/dubstep#tab-matchesBox
https://www.hltv.org/player/10671/ethan
how can dubstep and ethan on same level in valorant when dubstep isnt even tier2 player in CS
Its only because skill-ceiling is low in valorant

#9

Katharize

0

Frags

+

–

IN CS?

#10

idkwhoshouldisupport

29

Frags

+

–

i can think of two possible reasons off the top of my head
dubstep got better
cs isn't valorant

#11

ok_1_2_3

-16

Frags

+

–

i can think of one possible reasons off the top of my head
cs isn't valorant because valorant is easy and have low skill ceiling

#30

bloodysky

10

Frags

+

–

or ... maybe because they're different games?

#32

Ibis

-7

Frags

+

–

I completely agree, they are different games. But imo it’s a bit worrying that everyone can outaim each other and every random region has seemingly the same skill

#42

skyro

0

Frags

+

–

Worrying??

#57

Gurggu

1

Frags

+

–

valorant clearly have low skill ceiling and what proofs is that shahzam is able to compete in tier 1 xdd

#85

sp3cbro

0

Frags

+

–

bruh💀💀

#5

mueeza

4

Frags

+

–

the players are getting better, so?

#13

Ibis

-2

Frags

+

–

Yea in every region, every team of course

#15

Godson

0

Frags

+

–

ya i mean what else do you expect

#6

idkbro

2

Frags

+

–

add spray patterns, thats a good way of increasing the skill ceiling, it would be like cs where you would need to have insane spray control to be a top player and having good spray control would be more rewarding than good first shot accuracy which is what valorant rewards more atm, also not being able to control your spray and some times relying on rng is really tilting as an ex cs player, I dont spray anymore cuz of this, just tap and burst way easier to kill that way

#7

idkwhoshouldisupport

0

Frags

+

–

good point

#12

Supr3meGucci

-4

Frags

+

–

I agree, seeing every game at Champions be this close and sloppy was not a good sign for Valorant's uture

#14

Bo0mShell

2

Frags

+

–

So keep making changes to the game till you reach a point where the 'minor' regions cannot even practice anymore because people in their regions got bored they have no one to practice against

#16

CreedSama

-5

Frags

+

–

Dude i know it hurts that your region isnt good at the game but its just that as long as the skill ceiling is low , the game wont find much success in future

#19

Bo0mShell

3

Frags

+

–

Are you ok? I didn't even talk about my region.
Talking about teams who showed their potential at Champions with a surprising performance which wasn't because of the low skill ceiling but practice and improvement.

#23

CreedSama

2

Frags

+

–

X10 improved in just 3 days from getting 2-0ed by NV and playing for fun to beating NV and competing against Gambit
Fact is even if you arent a util heavy team and mostly rely on aim duels you will find more success than teams who spend hours into making setups and shit just because you can hit 3 heads easily with rng on a 11-11 round

#26

ItsMeDio

0

Frags

+

–

just in 2 days? wtf

#28

Bo0mShell

0

Frags

+

–

Well i agree with that. But the 'minor' region were good at both aiming and utility usage.

What I am saying is Valorant is easy to understand if you have game sense. But the 'skill ceiling' isn't the reason for other regions being at same level as Na/Eu

#17

HoeBiden

14

Frags

+

–

Unknown names from minor regions reaching same potential and skill level as NA/EU
Oh no how could they
Stop this at once
Blasphemy

#20

Bo0mShell

11

Frags

+

–

Exactly lol. Shit talk a region and when they improve say that skill ceiling isn't high enough.

#21

HoeBiden

9

Frags

+

–

Yeah, the superiority complex is clearly visible

#22

Bo0mShell

5

Frags

+

–

If 2 years later regions like SEA, LATAM and KR are better than Na/Eu, this game would be called dead.

#27

ItsMeDio

7

Frags

+

–

lol
and they would said
valorant is a shit game lmao

#29

Bo0mShell

4

Frags

+

–

'Either game is good or minor regions are good at it. Both things don't meet'

#34

Ibis

-3

Frags

+

–

Stop being cringe like that, don’t you find it strange that nearly everyone who was a bot in other games can be competitive? That doesn’t mean that India for example can’t produce new good talent in this game lmao

#41

queueK

1

Frags

+

–

It's been a year of serious competitive play. Naturally, those with better connections, experience, and other skills developed from playing other games for years give them an advantage.

Players like S1mple, who've played a game for their whole life, can't exist in this game yet since it's too young.

I'm near certain that in the coming years, the best players will have only played Valorant at a professional level.

#47

Ibis

1

Frags

+

–

I never denied that

#72

Viktor22

0

Frags

+

–

In others games, specially CS, due to their oldness, if a player who is mechanicly good starts competing, it still will take a while for him be able to compete in tier 1. This player still needs to learn the mental part of the game and when you are competing against player that have been playing for many years you need time to catch up. In Valorant, this didnt occur because everyone was brand new to the game, so players who were bad at others games found a good place to fresh start. Also, Valorant ,although similar to other games, is a different game. Utility usage at Valorant is much more crucial than in CS GO, for example. So it requires different set of abilities from players that wasnt in much in check in previous games

#81

invincible08

0

Frags

+

–

this is new game bro with abilities agents unlike cs where a singe thing do not change.

#86

sp3cbro

0

Frags

+

–

can't agree more

#33

Ibis

-1

Frags

+

–

Its just strange that regions who got 13-4 13-5 in the first event without any chance get into the semifinals of the biggest event a half year later. And my point was that everyone can be a good „aimer“ in Valorant

#43

HoeBiden

2

Frags

+

–

The base mechanics for the games are still same, aiming is not something random which has low skill ceiling, spray pattern yes but not aiming in itself
Plus the growth has much more to do with strategies rather than just it being all about aim
How you want them to change the game so only NA/EU remain god-like?
Give exact reasons, don't just say things for saying them

#73

Viktor22

1

Frags

+

–

Man, before Iceland 90% of pros didnt know how to approach the game. In Brazil, for example, basically every team played double duelist comps and jett wasnt that meta in here. The more international tournaments we had, more clear was the meta, so regions adapted to it

#79

Ibis

0

Frags

+

–

The champions winner plays double duelist as well

#18

MilanTheMyth

2

Frags

+

–

If the game wasn't hard already.
I don't want VAL to die like Overwatch.

imo they should make all agents strong so it's more fun for a casual

#24

Grumsy

10

Frags

+

–

Valorant is perfect for now , no changes needed except fixing a few bugs .... this is the first year , have you seen CS in its first years?? you would laugh like a maniac on how bad the game was . And CS was never fun for a casual player , now casual players enjoy valorant and you still compare it with CS

#36

Ibis

0

Frags

+

–

I agree I couldn’t play 3 games of CS in a row

#40

CreedSama

0

Frags

+

–

Its like saying DBZ in first 20 episodes was dogshit compared to Demon Slayer's animation
Ofc it was bad because its mistake served as an inspiration for Val developers

#25

ItsMeDio

1

Frags

+

–

STOP MAKING THIS GAME LIKE CS
it's not fun for casual player

valorant already fun as it is

#31

queueK

3

Frags

+

–

Why increase the skill ceiling when nobody has reached it? Random players getting great results doesn't imply that the game is easy. It just means they're improving.

Valorant is a team game. Even if the individual players seem to all be equal in skill (I disagree with this), the teams are far from that. If anything, making the game "harder" will only allow "random" players to hard carry their team more and upset other "known" teams.

#35

KssS

5

Frags

+

–

this is such a bad take. just because you dont know these players doesnt mean that they are any less skilled than their european or north american counter parts. Also valorant is a new game, major and minor regions are not yet set.

Being Successful in CS doesnt guarantee that they will also be successful in valorant.

#38

CreedSama

0

Frags

+

–

Its not about Major regions being bad or Minor regions being good , its that all the region now have the same skill ceiling as if any region could beat another and thats unconventional given the history of sports in general let alone esports

#45

KssS

1

Frags

+

–

then isnt that a good thing ? if anyone can beat anyone it creates a lot more excitement rather than "oh this team is european so they definitely will win against non-europeans" i've seen a lot of tierlist made with a mindset like this.

#48

Ibis

0

Frags

+

–

I mean it’s true though. Right now EU is still better lmao

#52

KssS

0

Frags

+

–

well you are right that EU is a lot better that doesnt mean that they are not gonna take any Ls from other regions in the future

#50

CreedSama

0

Frags

+

–

It looks good as a viewer but the orgs investing their shit on this game would get affected a lot due to this and not to forget veterans - imagine spending 5 years on a game and a new youngster who can hit heads better than you just replace you because there isnt stuff to learn
Meanwhile orgs spending millions bringing international players and spending on their living and stuff for a year and a random overwatch dude carrying a random SEA teams just booms you out of the most important tournament of the year
Sooner or later , Orgs will stop investing much on players if this continues

#53

KssS

3

Frags

+

–

dude i know you are heavily biased towards EU teams but can you take a sec to look at SEA JP or even BR? if these regions can prove that they can hang with the best they will get more support from local and international orgs and will help grow the local scene. they wouldnt need to fly to NA just to have a decent shot at getting a stable career.

#54

CreedSama

0

Frags

+

–

No Org will move to a minor region unless they are seriously dominating the game like R6 and League if all regions are equally good orgs will stay in NA / EU because of viewership sponsors and domestic deals

#56

KssS

3

Frags

+

–

we still have local orgs. if they see entering into valorant is an investment that pays off then it will help the players more

#78

inlucid

0

Frags

+

–

NIP had a team in EU and moved to Brazil

#84

CreedSama

0

Frags

+

–

Not long until they come back , they had R6 and Val wasnt doing good in EU + Less Expenses in BR
and still they were heavily criticized for this

#39

Ibis

0

Frags

+

–

That’s true, but it seems like if you were somehow decent at CS you can be as good as everyone who was way better than you in cs.
But idk that wasn’t even my main point but that some guy from X10 or even crazy raccoon can have a round where he somehow headshots 3-4 people against seemingly way better opponents

#46

HoeBiden

4

Frags

+

–

Again, how the fuck can aiming be a low skill thing? Like taps exist and most people in Pro Valorant rely on taps, what are you going on about
X10 isn't just a random tier3 na team, the players have worked hard on the game
Don't invalidate their hard work by saying "lol, low skill ceiling"

#51

KssS

0

Frags

+

–

a lot of players at champions have insane aim even those outside of NA and EU it wouldnt be surprising that someone from japan or SEA pops off in a certain round. rather than saying that valorant has a low skill ceiling isnt it better to say that these pro players have spent a lot of time grinding this game?

#37

hellaeleganceyeah

5

Frags

+

–

ohh no i dont watch minor regions so they must be dogshit. KEKW.

#44

Ibis

0

Frags

+

–

Besides exceptions they were in all fps games and were in valorant, in the first events,yes. but suddenly everyone is insane

#49

hellaeleganceyeah

2

Frags

+

–

nerves on attending your first lan maybe. who knows. so much more goes into the games than mechanics. saying the skill ceiling is low is a stupid take. players like cned are redefining their agent every series how can you not see that tho.

#55

Sem1-

1

Frags

+

–

I'm the cs fanboy that you are talking about, but I think that each game has a different skill ceiling, not necessarily higher, but it's just different things to learn, valorant pros will probably have to learn how to adapt more frequently as the game is changing so much, while in cs we have the same thing over and over and we get hyped when a new boost is discovered lol. I'd give valorant more time to mature and these random players that you are talking about will either become a household name of the game or just be forgotten. When cs started the players were randoms too.

#58

KimSaeBeokkk

0

Frags

+

–

ye

#59

cruZer

3

Frags

+

–

the most braindead shit I have seen all the day

#60

jawn

0

Frags

+

–

this game has only been out for a year, the skill ceiling will only get higher and higher as new maps/agents get released. That's how games developed by rito work, that's their identity.

#61

AhsanX

1

Frags

+

–

sht take 0/8nt

#62

Treybyy

1

Frags

+

–

damn "random players"

#63

Arnav_2001

-1

Frags

+

–

If you are taking about low skill ceiling in this game you don't know how this minor region players working hard day and night. Since the game is very new and everyone just working hard bcz they want to be best.

#64

bambamskrrt

5

Frags

+

–

never I have witnessed a more bad take than this one. this one is one of a kind, reddit take even better than this.

#68

ItsMeDio

0

Frags

+

–

maybe even redditors are scared to this man

#65

Treybyy

3

Frags

+

–

mans worked hard to make a name for themselves just to be called "random players" damn

#66

WONDERWEISS

3

Frags

+

–

"Previously random players like dubstep, heat, keznit and most of their teammates even all are in similar worldclass level to NA/EU top players..."

True, how can random Human Beings be as good as the Martians aka Master Race from EU/NA, right?

#67

ItsMeDio

2

Frags

+

–

lmao
superiority complex is truly disgusting

#69

Ibis

0

Frags

+

–

I really lose my hope arguing with you. What I was talking about was that EU/NA were the clearly better regions in valorant the whole year and suddenly regions who performed way worse in all masters can win. That’s what I meant with random I didn’t insult your sister or something chill. And it’s strange that every region (besides Japan) is insane. It suggests that valorant is easier + random results etc

#71

ItsMeDio

0

Frags

+

–

What I was talking about was that EU/NA were the clearly better regions in valorant the whole year

what happened to u man? 2 EMEA TEAMS IN FINAL, 4 of them in playoff

what's again? u want 8 emea teams in playoff?

IT'S SO CLEAR EMEA > ANY REGION IN THIS YEAR
it's just a little upset over NA (because certain teams, not ALL SMALLER TEAMS)

#70

ALICEINBORDERLANDMANGAGUD

2

Frags

+

–

Braindead silver making everything about aim lol

#74

JettEnjoyer

2

Frags

+

–

the thing you called "skill ceiling" in cs:go is the consiquanses of an old boomer things in an old engine.
Valorant has almost the same mechanics with the new engine and modern game. Boomer people are blaiming Valorant and say its low skill ceiling game and easier, because of the simple fact that in Valorant bullets accuracy is much better than in cs:go, so if you are aiming on head it will hit the head (first 3 bullets on rifle).

On an another hand, in cs:go with all the 12 yrs old mechanics - you literarly can't aim your crosshair on head and hit the shot like in Valorant, because even the pro players doesn't fukin know where these volvo bulets go (no tracers available). All what cs:go has instead - is the spray patterns which make the game the crouch spraying simulator: to enable to kill the opponent with rifle you need to crouch spray (because these fukin bullets goes whereever but not on the crosshair). You can watch one clip on S1mple's clutch against Astralis few month ago on Inferno: he was half HP, he had an AK vs two opponents, he was holding B site as CT, and what S1mple did? Yeah true, he swapt on Deagle and killed them by two headshots, he knew he would never do this with AK because he would need the spray (he was low hp) and lack of rifle accuracy.

In Valorant you have first 3 bullets accuracy, so this game just gives you more opportunity if you are good at aiming. Better aimer better chances to win the battle. Movement, positioning, macro strategies and utility usage (utility usage is actually hareder in Valorant, which we can call as the skill ceiling) is like in cs:go. The main difference is Valorant > cs:go in the way of aiming and shooting. Beacuse its a new modern game. Closed.

This is the reason why such bot like floppy aka rikky kemery would never be top tier in Valorant - he just can't aim clean at the tier 1 level. This is the reason why tons of tier 2 cs:go players from CIS (which i personally know few) - play worse than those tier 3 or even 4 cs:go players, in Valorant they became better because game fits their style and fits their AIM style. Thats why T0nz is still tier 1 in Valorant despite hes bad in game sense. Thats why Brehze or Elige, if they will switch, will dominate whole NA scene - Elige and Brehze are briliant aimers (besides their good game sense as well) and Valorant fits them even better than cs:go. Thats why (very hot take but i think its true) S1mple would never be top1 by vlr.gg/hltv in Valorant - i personaly think Valorant doesnt fits him, he needs true awp mechanics, people will counter his operator with abilities easy and etc.

The last thing is about spray pattern in Valo. I remember the reasons from rito officials why the will not implement a full spray patterns: its because they want Valorant be more precise aimwise, taps and bursting. if you need a spary pattern it exists for 10-14 first bullets at rifles, not for all mag.

#83

LouBag

-1

Frags

+

–

Highly underrated comment.

It always floors me that people think CS has a better skill ceiling because it’s easier to spray kill…. Like what!?

Also…. The amount of utility In this game is so so so so much more and intense. The skill ceiling on utility is MILES above cs.

The reason you see randoms and teams that struggle to stay on top in Valorant is because the skill ceiling hasn’t even begun to be reached. We are all noobs and In 5 years we will look back and laugh at how bad everyone is

#88

JettEnjoyer

0

Frags

+

–

dude some arguments are kinda true but they are messing it all up cause most people are delusional.

look, the movement speed in Valorant is less than in cs - does it skill ceiling? maybe yes, lets talk about it further. the shooting in cs:go is broken af thats why people crouch spray everytime, thats why being a cs:go rifler (for instance GOAT Niko) you would never be top1 hltv because of the AWP meta existance - does it skill ceiling? no. shooting is completely broken thats why its "harder" for delusionals. mens who learned spray patterns have a skill ofc, in Valo mens learning precise taps and bursting, its a skill too. the reason why taping and bursting > spray patterns is relying on tactical FPS idea itself - its all about precise clicking aim with movement errors (!). If you guys want spraying go to Quake or Apex Legends and learn tracking aim and movement

the speed. even if we will talk about the movement speed we again will talk about cs:go old engine LMAO. cs:go is a bit faster but way smoother, valorant is a bit slower but sharp in terms of peeks, strafes and counter strafes - this is just an engine things. so, as a rito devs, if you will increase valorant speed the models will be like ferrari peeking every time - you will play and cry, then delete. if volvo will decrease the speed cs will be like rainbow six siege LMAO

#89

andreyoliveira7

0

Frags

+

–

Adding one thing to your argument: look how easy is to boost someone into higher ground in CS and how hard is to boost in valorant, besides that how hard is to crouch jump some places. Pure mechanical skill but some will say that valorant is a bad game because they can't do that.

#90

JettEnjoyer

0

Frags

+

–

adding another thing, do you know why cs:go pro crosshairs are big af in comparison of Valorant dots and small crosshairs? Its simply because valorant is more precise in aim than spray this simulator / closed thread

KEKW

#94

sank3tsu

0

Frags

+

–

Thats preference like theres people that prefer to play like niko and others that likes to play like elige

#93

sank3tsu

0

Frags

+

–

Its not that hard brother i just did the same i would on cs and it works

#97

andreyoliveira7

0

Frags

+

–

not in every place

#100

sank3tsu

0

Frags

+

–

almost everywhere tho , but its really messed up to complicate something so simple

#104

JettEnjoyer

0

Frags

+

–

dude do hltv has the statistics of pro crosshairs? lets don't be delusional plz, ur a cool guy
also #92

#75

Viktor22

0

Frags

+

–

I agree that shooting wise valorant indeed have a skill ceiling problem. For me, this comes from how maps are designed then from in game mechanics. Specially the younger maps, most of the common shooting angles gives a too big advantage for one the parties. This can be because the angle is too tight for the peaker, giving the holder the advantage, because he sees the peaker first or too open, giving the peaker the advantage, because he sees the holder first. This leads to worse mechanically players killing better ones much more often than it should. The newer maps, though, improved this aspect a lot, but its not enouth still

#76

kocunar

0

Frags

+

–

Valorant favours :
Pure aim
Creativity

Csgo favours :
Nerdy spray control

I'll take Valorant, tyvm

#77

CuteGuy

1

Frags

+

–

That is how riot do their games being easy and casual to reach much more wider audience. Skill ceiling dont really matter on a games success, look at league.

#80

JettEnjoyer

-1

Frags

+

–

In cs spray pattern needed because it has only the 1 first bullet accuracy and has full patterns, in VALORANT you have 3 first bullet accuracy and partial spray patterns. In cs you must spray or you re dead, in Valorant you are dead if you spay. Crouch spray pattern simulator vs precise taping/bursting game, thats all the difference. The skill ceiling in Valorant for sure exists and will grow even more as devs adding new agents, abilities, shifting meta etc because Valo is kinda moba game. CS skill ceiling can be harder just because game is too old and people grind it for 12 years. Still Valorant is better game.

#92

sank3tsu

0

Frags

+

–

.

#98

sank3tsu

1

Frags

+

–

Has potential but its not better game . Even if u say that cs is "must pray = win" there a lot of players that rely on aim because theres diferent kinds of aim , u can be someone who sprays but the spray is focused on the opponent head like b1t ,ropz ,yekindar,kscerato or someone with a smooth/calm aim like niko or burst players like coldzera or people who has a really good crosshair placement + god reaction time like twiztzz , ax1le , zywoo , elige and mezzii >The problem in valorant is that its really easy to aim + plus the rng so even players who are "less skilled" can punish others really easier

#103

JettEnjoyer

0

Frags

+

–

The problem in valorant is that its really easy to aim

its not the problem of Valorant, it is a problem of cs:go that shooting in cs is broken af and you guys want Valorant be broken as an old 12 y.o. game
#75
#90

#105

sank3tsu

0

Frags

+

–

Since they fixed the hitbox i never noticed that the engine was a problem but valorant rng is bigger than this one , like i said a game where is easy to aim plus this rng even noobs can punish u

#106

JettEnjoyer

0

Frags

+

–

well rito fixed the rng ages ago. the reason why valorant could be like more rng while moving its simply because it has more movents vertical as well: jett updrafts, raze satchels, classic bursting instead glock bursting. that is bro

in what situations in Valorant noobs can punish you if you didnt make a mistake?

#82

yaiima0

0

Frags

+

–

Don’t invalidate the hard work of “unknown players” and teams just because you don’t know them. Valorant isn’t CS and that’s what helps set it apart.

#95

Amogedon7

0

Frags

+

–

Brain dead take tbh

#96

Mortadelo

1

Frags

+

–

Which player that switched to Valorant was actually not washed and in a Tier 1 team in Cs? Not being known in Cs has nothing to do, different games

#99

Jawa

1

Frags

+

–

dude, you obviously won't sound like a "bitter CS fanboy" cause you've just listed NA as "top region". Not only that, you called heat and keznit (both former csgo pro players) randoms and completely ignored Cned, a former Zula player(lolwut) that won the Champions and is now considered one of the best. You're not only completely unaware of fps scene, but you're also biased af

#101

KimSaeBeokkk

1

Frags

+

–

ratio

#102

Gyro

0

Frags

+

–

Be it CS or Valo most players have crazy mechanics, its not their aim which makes a difference , but their strategy, team play and experience does, there are some anomalies like niko s1mple or tenz but rest of the players are very similar in terms of aim.
For Valo, the scene has been out for only a year so strats and teamplay hasnt been properly developed like in CS, also before making dumb statements, try think abt them for a bit and u will get ur answer :)

#107

phnxe

0

Frags

+

–

Make like a valorant FPL with prizes.