Loose = Unfair Advantage

#1

Anguibok

Did you like 2024 kickoff format that give a round of bye to a team that loose the first game ? No ?
Well thats exactly what we have in 2025 kickoff. Loosing your first game might give you an unfair advantage, because you more have time to prep, while the team you will face are preparing a game against a team that is far better and will half time compared than you to prepare their looser bracket game.

Maybe 2025 Kickoff format is bad, I want to hear your opinion about that.

Here is the problem I want to point at : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvn-sRsuZTE

#2

bees

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Considering the team that loses their first match is now one match away from elimination, I wouldn't say it's unfair that they have more time to prep for one match. The team that goes through all of the upper bracket also has more time to prep for grand finals.

Also, not trying to be rude, but I know English isn't your first language. "Lose" is the word you are trying to use. "Loose" is an adjective with a different meaning.

#5

Anguibok

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Thanks for the tip ! ~~if I would lie I would say it was on purpose to make people post~~ i'm always eager to have advice (especially in english)

It's unfair not after match 1, it's unfair after match 2, the 3rd BO (Or the 1st Bo of the loser bracket), will oppose a team that just play one more game versus a team that get full rest because of a lose, in classical double round-robin (8, 10 or 16 teams), it's winning enough game that grant you some bye in looser bracket, in 12 team bracket, it's loosing early that grant you a bye.

What do you think of the solution that was proposed ? (3 group with kinda the GSL format, with the 2nd going in loser bracket while the first team play a round robin one day before the last game of GSL with the 3rd going in loser bracket witht the 2nd, the 2nd team going in loser bracket final, while the first is in grandfinal

#9

bees

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If the matches for one team are at least a few days apart it's fine. I see what you mean, but the first-to-lose team having a slight advantage over the second-to-lose team in preparation time doesn't seem that important when the whole point of the lower bracket is to offer a second chance after losing.

Also, doesn't the second-to-lose team get a very slight advantage of potentially rematching the team that beat them, while the first-to-lose team never got that experience?

What you're suggesting works well too. If I understand it correctly, it also means the upper bracket advances earlier than the lower bracket, which is a better viewing experience. I like to see which teams are confirmed for top 4 before we see teams start to get eliminated.

#11

Anguibok

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Day 1/2 (Round 1) : Winner bracket Round 1
Day 3 (Round 2) : Winner bracket Round 2
Day 4 (Round 2) : Loser bracket round 1
Day 5 (Round 3) : 3 games Round Robin 2
Day 6 (Round 3) : Loser bracket round 2 (Or Decider if GSL)
Day 7 (Round 4) : Loser bracket round 3
And then you have 3 remaining games in BO5 since they are only 1 game left
Day 8 (Round 4) : Semifinal loser
Day 9 (Round 5) : Final loser (2nd of RR vs winner of LB)
Day 10 (Round 6) : Grand final

#3

kobs_0

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First two upper rounds occur 16th - 19th Jan
Then 3 days off
Lower round 1 is 23rd/24th Jan

That "more time to prep" is irrelevant here, it's really only relevant when teams play back to back days - but in this case the minimum prep any team has is 4 days which is more than enough at the highest level.

That being said, the 2024 format of groups, especially group C was completely horrendous due to the "win 1 game and you're top 4" that EG did. A full double elim bracket for 12 teams is one of few formats that would genuinely work here in such a small amount of time.

#10

Anguibok

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Good point, the schedule spacing (At least in Americas), avoid this issues, I hope this will be the case for other region (I think it's more 1 week if I'm not mistaken reading the schedule), 4 day would not be enough to my eyes.

Even if it's less worst than 2024 schedule I really dislike giving a bye to a team that just loose and I want to see other format.

Do you have an opinion on the one i've proposed ? 3RS/ OR 3 group of 4 GSL, with the 3 team in 2-0 play against each other in a Round Robin for deciding who go in grandfinal (While the other go in looser bracket with team in 2-1)

#13

kobs_0

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Since Riot seem to insist on this kickoff -> masters idea at the start of each year, I'd say best to remove all seeding from the previous year - teams changes, roles change, new teams are added, I could go on. I think with 12 teams, yeah best case is a 3 GSL groups. Which is essentially the format of last years kickoff with the exception of Group C last year being the real problem with that format.

I do think if time allows it - to do 3 GSL groups - 2nd place round robin for 4th spot. And then a double elim final bracket too, without a final (so 4 matches). Come masters, keep the 8 team swiss - I really like swiss, and you don't need seeding for that.

That being said - I think there are large problems with the kickoff format in general. I think they should just get rid of it - start at Stage 1 and add an LCQ with the time leftover at the end of the season. LCQ in my opinion is always going to be a lot more hype than SEN getting into champs because LEV won a game in Stage 2 Playoffs. But I digress.

#14

Anguibok

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Group of 4 GSL, with the 3 team in 2-0 play against each other in a Round Robin for deciding who go in grandfinal While the other go in looser bracket with team in 2-1)

With this proposition we just have 1 BO more than this year, and the maximum game theory is also 8 (but since they are 2 BO the same day for first seed the maximum day of game theory is even lower than what we already have wish is helping for the schedule spacing)

I don't like the idea of making a RR for the 2nd of GSL, because it can lead to a useless BO (An option to solve this problem is to make fight the looser of game one in the 2nd game to maintain suspens), I prefer to it for the 1st, so the bracket is easier to solve

#15

kobs_0

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ah I see what you mean, or at least I think I do - seems you intend on using a 6 team playoff bracket? So the top 2 "2-0" teams from the RR go to top 4, whereas the loser still plays a 2-1 team. I like that, I do think in both scenarios there are plenty of cases where that last game is essentially useless in RR, but at least with yours even if that one is just a seeding game in this case - you still have games after.

So if my math is correct - the 3 GSL groups would lead to 5 games each, RR 3 games, and playoffs 7 - maybe 8 if the whole thing is double elim. So total 25 or 26 games. Just as a point of reference, the full 12 team double elim bracket is 22 games. The format I suggested - albeit with that likely useless game in RR - would be 24 games.

I'd love to know more about the logistics of running one of these kickoff tournaments and how much room they have in the scheduling for potential extra games. Still with all the flaws with group C in last years kickoff - the format was still far better than just a straight up bracket.

#16

Anguibok

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GSL : 3x5 = 15 games
RR : 3 games
PO : 5 games (2 games with the loser of RR and 3 2nd of GSL, 1 game with the 2 winner, 1 game with remaining team vs the 2nd of RR, grandfinal against winner of RR)
Total : 23 games

#4

danii1

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Monster on the loose!!!

#6

cloudberry

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She's still gunning for ya!!

#7

danii1

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i wish...

#8

cloudberry

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She's all done running 😔

#12

Two_Percent

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its not an advantage, the stakes are much higher in the lower bracket