If you changed his E (DOUBLE TAP, the ability that provides a shield to ISO) so that it granted an initial shield upon activation as well as a refresh on kills, would that be too OP?
It would help to improve his ability to make/create space dramatically.
You could always reduce its up time and some changes to its costs/charges to make it more balanced.
Currently, he's not in a very good state especially at the highest level.
Other than that change, you would probably need to rework his kit.
realvizierr [#2]id rather delete the agent
nah i dont think they have enough to do that yet
they shoulda deleted reyna but there were so few agents at the time
cobalt21312 [#8]not every agent needs to be competitively viable. dont rlly matter now
In terms of ranked pick rate he is still like bottom 5 at all rank levels.
Mortadelo [#9]Yoru is meta now wdym
no hes not but his pickrate is higher because he got a rework thats what he means
B1itz [#12]no hes not but his pickrate is higher because he got a rework thats what he means
He did not get a full rework at all, abilities are still the same just buffed.
And yes he is meta, third most picked duelist. Even ahead of Jett in EMEA
capital_d_colon [#10]In terms of ranked pick rate he is still like bottom 5 at all rank levels.
Wdym bottom 5? He is at the bottom , I see every agent being picked atleast once but not iso
Mortadelo [#14]He did not get a full rework at all, abilities are still the same just buffed.
And yes he is meta, third most picked duelist. Even ahead of Jett in EMEA
his decoy and TPs both got changed drastically, his decoy is an entirely different ability now. Also he had an 11% pickrate LMAO thats not even close to meta. He didnt have a pickrate higher than 50% on a single map, if you arent majority picked on at least one map you cant be meta
B1itz [#17]his decoy and TPs both got changed drastically, his decoy is an entirely different ability now. Also he had an 11% pickrate LMAO thats not even close to meta. He didnt have a pickrate higher than 50% on a single map, if you arent majority picked on at least one map you cant be meta
He was the 13th most picked agent. According to you there's only 10 meta agents or what? That would be sad af. He also has a 20% pickrate in EMEA
And yes his decoy got drastically buffed but the essence is the same, if that is a full rework then idk
Currently, he's not in a very good state especially at the highest level.
hes in a completely OK state rn outside of pro play. Agents like him and reyna will never get used in pro. Their util is simply too selfish and relies on guaranteed kill to work instead of acting as a way to guarantee the kill in and of itself.
sdgdfdrgdrfgdrgdrfttdhy [#19]Currently, he's not in a very good state especially at the highest level.
hes in a completely OK state rn outside of pro play. Agents like him and reyna will never get used in pro. Their util is simply too selfish and relies on guaranteed kill to work instead of acting as a way to guarantee the kill in and of itself.
Despite both agents being viewed as "ranked agents" Reyna still does have a small presence in pro play.
Reyna has been played at every VCT event this year (this includes every regions kick//off and Masters Madrid).
Iso has not been played a single time.
In terms of ranked presence in 8.04 for all ranks, which was last patch. (according to metasrc).
Reyna is the 2nd most popular with a 11.13% pick rate. (highest rank win rate, 50.62%)
Iso was the 4th least popular with a 1.55% pick rate. (3rd lowest rank win rate, 49.40%)
Yes Iso's kit can be viewed as selfish but i wouldn't say he is an OK state right now.
Mortadelo [#18]He was the 13th most picked agent. According to you there's only 10 meta agents or what? That would be sad af. He also has a 20% pickrate in EMEA
And yes his decoy got drastically buffed but the essence is the same, if that is a full rework then idk
yes, there are only like 10 meta agents, that's 41% of the agent roster dude
his decoy is no where near the same in essence, his tp got changed, his ult got buffed
(Yoru is no longer revealed to enemies
Yoru is able to cast all utility while in Dimensional Drift
Enemies can hear Yoru’s footsteps
Nearsighted is removed
Unequip delay time is increased slightly
Cast delay added when casting Dimensional Drift, preventing the invulnerability frame on cast.)
this is the most an agent has been changed within one patch to this day besides maybe the chamber nerf
Mortadelo [#9]Yoru is meta now wdym
old yoru was completely different his ult, decoy and tp have all been changed drastically beyond basic numbers buffs
capital_d_colon [#20]Despite both agents being viewed as "ranked agents" Reyna still does have a small presence in pro play.
Reyna has been played at every VCT event this year (this includes every regions kick//off and Masters Madrid).
Iso has not been played a single time.In terms of ranked presence in 8.04 for all ranks, which was last patch. (according to metasrc).
Reyna is the 2nd most popular with a 11.13% pick rate. (highest rank win rate, 50.62%)
Iso was the 4th least popular with a 1.55% pick rate. (3rd lowest rank win rate, 49.40%)Yes Iso's kit can be viewed as selfish but i wouldn't say he is an OK state right now.
nothing you mentioned has anything to do with an agent being in a good state or not... solo q win rate are not indications of agents need tweaks. KAYO consistently has one of if not the worst solo q winrate are you saying we need KAYO buffs?? Fade, Breach, and Harbor all have pick rate as low if not worse than ISO are you saying we need to buff those agents? Pro play isnt ranked pick rate in pro play has no bearing on solo q and never will you yourself acknowledge this yet try to make pro pick rate relevant which is an idiotic stance to hold. Create an opinion based on the actual merits of the thing you claim to like/dislike instead of ambiguous statistics which apply to other related agents and are not in any way inherently indicative of an issue.
Hyopic [#21]yes, there are only like 10 meta agents, that's 41% of the agent roster dude
his decoy is no where near the same in essence, his tp got changed, his ult got buffed
(Yoru is no longer revealed to enemies
Yoru is able to cast all utility while in Dimensional Drift
Enemies can hear Yoru’s footsteps
Nearsighted is removed
Unequip delay time is increased slightly
Cast delay added when casting Dimensional Drift, preventing the invulnerability frame on cast.)this is the most an agent has been changed within one patch to this day besides maybe the chamber nerf
Sure, all his abilities got buffed, and that is why he got buffed, not reworked. If I make his ult last 50 seconds that is a buff, if I change his ult for something else that is a rework. It’s a completely different thing. Only thing I could buy is reworked is the decoy
sdgdfdrgdrfgdrgdrfttdhy [#23]nothing you mentioned has anything to do with an agent being in a good state or not... solo q win rate are not indications of agents need tweaks. KAYO consistently has one of if not the worst solo q winrate are you saying we need KAYO buffs?? Fade, Breach, and Harbor all have pick rate as low if not worse than ISO are you saying we need to buff those agents? Pro play isnt ranked pick rate in pro play has no bearing on solo q and never will you yourself acknowledge this yet try to make pro pick rate relevant which is an idiotic stance to hold. Create an opinion based on the actual merits of the thing you claim to like/dislike instead of ambiguous statistics which apply to other related agents and are not in any way inherently indicative of an issue.
Of course ranked pickrates/winrates do not always correlate with the overall state of an agent.
But when you bring the argument that Iso is "in a completely OK state rn outside of pro play" and equate his performances to a similar agent like reyna despite the fact he his massively underperforming her in every metric it seems ridiculous.
I don't think Kay/o needs a buff because he's utility translates over to a structured pro play scenario very well, which is shown in his pick rates in a pro play.
You are making the argument that an agent that has no popularity in pro play and no popularity on the ladder is in a "ok state" which is laughable.
His kit is indeed on the selfish end of things however his kit is still far weaker than other agents that fall in this category.
He's not in an "ok state" his current kit is very underwhelming and does not provide any space creation or any advantage over another agent in the roster.
capital_d_colon [#25]Of course ranked pickrates/winrates do not always correlate with the overall state of an agent.
But when you bring the argument that Iso is "in a completely OK state rn outside of pro play" and equate his performances to a similar agent like reyna despite the fact he his massively underperforming her in every metric it seems ridiculous.I don't think Kay/o needs a buff because he's utility translates over to a structured pro play scenario very well, which is shown in his pick rates in a pro play.
You are making the argument that an agent that has no popularity in pro play and no popularity on the ladder is in a "ok state" which is laughable.
His kit is indeed on the selfish end of things however his kit is still far weaker than other agents that fall in this category.
He's not in an "ok state" his current kit is very underwhelming and does not provide any space creation or any advantage over another agent in the roster.
and equate his performances to a similar agent like reyna despite the fact he his massively underperforming her in every metric it seems ridiculous
i never said his solo q performance was the same as reyna that is simply your hallucination. I compared the two to explain why they don't get picked in pro play that is all. id appreciate if you stop lying you literally quoted the comment i wrote so why tf did you decide to go out and lie about it?
I don't think Kay/o needs a buff because he's utility translates over to a structured pro play scenario very well, which is shown in his pick rates in a pro play.
thats cool but we're talking about solo q not pro play dumbass.
You are making the argument that an agent that has no popularity in pro play and no popularity on the ladder is in a "ok state" which is laughable.
again you seem to think pro play pick rate has any impact on solo q which is insanely deluded. regardless we dont buff or nerf agents because of popularity in solo q. unless an agent's popularity is so extreme it results in others in that category being ignored (kj before cypher buffs) we do not make balance changes. its weird you cant get that through your head. I'm making an argument that the state of ISO's kit is OK. You point to statistics that have nothing to do with his kit as a counter point. I compared him to other agents with similar statistics and you go "oh no but my pro play 😱😱😱" you dont have any actual argument as to ISO's merits or demerits based on his util alone. again why dont we buff Harbor? he has insanely similar stats to ISO in terms of solo q? so why not buff him? Oh let me guess you're gonna argue that pro play should affect solo q again aren't you?
His kit is indeed on the selfish end of things however his kit is still far weaker than other agents that fall in this category.
He's not in an "ok state" his current kit is very underwhelming and does not provide any space creation or any advantage over another agent in the roster.
1 space creation is not a prerequisite factor to being a duelist. Pheonix and Reyna literally have existed for years this narrative is idiotic. 2 "far weaker" is BS. His E is weaker than reyna heal yes. but his ult, q, and c are all better than reyna's other util. His util does indeed provide advantages over other duelists. His q acts as a fade seize that lasts longer and is on a duelist. His C (which ironically is a tool for taking space contradicting your earlier point) is a better harbor wall for taking space. and his ult is a guaranteed pick assuming youre not a dumbass while using it. just because you say hes weak does not mean it is true.
sdgdfdrgdrfgdrgdrfttdhy [#26]and equate his performances to a similar agent like reyna despite the fact he his massively underperforming her in every metric it seems ridiculous
i never said his solo q performance was the same as reyna that is simply your hallucination. I compared the two to explain why they don't get picked in pro play that is all. id appreciate if you stop lying you literally quoted the comment i wrote so why tf did you decide to go out and lie about it?
I don't think Kay/o needs a buff because he's utility translates over to a structured pro play scenario very well, which is shown in his pick rates in a pro play.
thats cool but we're talking about solo q not pro play dumbass.
You are making the argument that an agent that has no popularity in pro play and no popularity on the ladder is in a "ok state" which is laughable.
again you seem to think pro play pick rate has any impact on solo q which is insanely deluded. regardless we dont buff or nerf agents because of popularity in solo q. unless an agent's popularity is so extreme it results in others in that category being ignored (kj before cypher buffs) we do not make balance changes. its weird you cant get that through your head. I'm making an argument that the state of ISO's kit is OK. You point to statistics that have nothing to do with his kit as a counter point. I compared him to other agents with similar statistics and you go "oh no but my pro play 😱😱😱" you dont have any actual argument as to ISO's merits or demerits based on his util alone. again why dont we buff Harbor? he has insanely similar stats to ISO in terms of solo q? so why not buff him? Oh let me guess you're gonna argue that pro play should affect solo q again aren't you?
His kit is indeed on the selfish end of things however his kit is still far weaker than other agents that fall in this category.
He's not in an "ok state" his current kit is very underwhelming and does not provide any space creation or any advantage over another agent in the roster.1 space creation is not a prerequisite factor to being a duelist. Pheonix and Reyna literally have existed for years this narrative is idiotic. 2 "far weaker" is BS. His E is weaker than reyna heal yes. but his ult, q, and c are all better than reyna's other util. His util does indeed provide advantages over other duelists. His q acts as a fade seize that lasts longer and is on a duelist. His C (which ironically is a tool for taking space contradicting your earlier point) is a better harbor wall for taking space. and his ult is a guaranteed pick assuming youre not a dumbass while using it. just because you say hes weak does not mean it is true.
thats cool but we're talking about solo q not pro play dumbass.
The original thread was about Iso's kit as a whole. An agent being useful in either a pro play setting or in a ranked play setting demonstrates some sought of success in their kit. Outside of using popularity and win rate stats the opinionated points surrounding Iso's kit can be easily deemed as subjective.
His q acts as a fade seize that lasts longer and is on a duelist
All his Q/"Undercut" provides is the fragile effect.
Fade's seize provides a decay, restricts movement and deafens the enemy. Whilst also providing a slight indicator to whether an enemy was hit or not. That's not even mentioning the other util Fade provides.
His C (which ironically is a tool for taking space contradicting your earlier point) is a better harbor wall for taking space.
Iso's one charge thin wall is not better than Harbor's two charges which has the option to stopped.
Even outside of the frequency of the wall, Harbor's wall also provides a slowing effect and lasts longer.
The indestructibleness can be useful but it stills weak in comparison.
Besides it's all good to argue about each ability in isolation but what makes an agent useful is the way they can use their abilities in tandem. With the comparison with Reyna you are forgetting the flexibility of use cases that the devour/dismiss combo allows for. Reyna's kit works well for individual expression which it was made for, Iso has individuality in some of his abilities but in unison the kit does not function as smoothly or as usefully as Reyna.
Mortadelo [#14]He did not get a full rework at all, abilities are still the same just buffed.
And yes he is meta, third most picked duelist. Even ahead of Jett in EMEA
EMEA doesn’t know the meta
That is why they are so bad
Yoru is still not meta in major regions because he isn’t as strong
Asuna_Yuuki [#28]EMEA doesn’t know the meta
That is why they are so bad
Yoru is still not meta in major regions because he isn’t as strong
He was in 1 out of every 5 maps in all regions, that is really not that uncommon
capital_d_colon [#27]thats cool but we're talking about solo q not pro play dumbass.
The original thread was about Iso's kit as a whole. An agent being useful in either a pro play setting or in a ranked play setting demonstrates some sought of success in their kit. Outside of using popularity and win rate stats the opinionated points surrounding Iso's kit can be easily deemed as subjective.
His q acts as a fade seize that lasts longer and is on a duelist
All his Q/"Undercut" provides is the fragile effect.
Fade's seize provides a decay, restricts movement and deafens the enemy. Whilst also providing a slight indicator to whether an enemy was hit or not. That's not even mentioning the other util Fade provides.His C (which ironically is a tool for taking space contradicting your earlier point) is a better harbor wall for taking space.
Iso's one charge thin wall is not better than Harbor's two charges which has the option to stopped.
Even outside of the frequency of the wall, Harbor's wall also provides a slowing effect and lasts longer.
The indestructibleness can be useful but it stills weak in comparison.Besides it's all good to argue about each ability in isolation but what makes an agent useful is the way they can use their abilities in tandem. With the comparison with Reyna you are forgetting the flexibility of use cases that the devour/dismiss combo allows for. Reyna's kit works well for individual expression which it was made for, Iso has individuality in some of his abilities but in unison the kit does not function as smoothly or as usefully as Reyna.
Outside of using popularity and win rate stats the opinionated points surrounding Iso's kit can be easily deemed as subjective.
saying shit like this is how i know you're a dumbass. I guess we buff the shit outta harbor kayo astra fade etc. then because their pick rates and winrates are below average. lets not ignore the fact that there will always be agents with lower pick rates or win rate because its statistically impossible for there not to be. lets ignore the fact that these statistics have no actual link with how powerful an agent actually is (harbor kayo etc.) no instead lets place 100% of our stock on these statistics. I cant wait until kayo ult is 6 cost and he has 3 flashes.
All his Q/"Undercut" provides is the fragile effect.
Fade's seize provides a decay, restricts movement and deafens the enemy. Whilst also providing a slight indicator to whether an enemy was hit or not. That's not even mentioning the other util Fade provides.
yes and the vulnerable lasts longer, hits more, moves faster, is harder to dodge, combos with more util, is easier to play off as an individual, is effective for longer (decay fades faster), and is able to be fired while behind a wall...
Iso's one charge thin wall is not better than Harbor's two charges which has the option to stopped.
this is another fun intentional misinterpretation by you :). I was comparing it to a single harbor wall not 2. but ok. Regardless the harbor wall is not as strong for taking space an ISO wall. the slowing effect is practically useless in reality. the stopping point is MAYBE the only thing that harbor actually has over ISO.
you are forgetting the flexibility of use cases that the devour/dismiss combo allows for
... this is gibberish spouted by an idiot who wants to appear intelligent. there is only one use case for reyna e/q and iso e and that is you get a kill. reyna either lets you get out or heal. iso only lets you have a barrier in exchange for only taking up one ability slot and lasting for a longer period.
Reyna's kit works well for individual expression which it was made for
again this is gibberish made by someone who wants to seem smart. there is no individual expression through reyna's kit. in fact she has one of the least expressive kits in the entire game. your idea of individual expression seems to be "duuuuur i push" or "duuuuur i didnt push." there is no way to express your individuality through reyna's kit as her abilities will always result in the exact same outcome no matter who uses them or how they are used. Any "expression" you gain access to from reyna is "expression" you have equal access to on ANY OTHER AGENT IN THE GAME...
Iso has individuality in some of his abilities but in unison the kit does not function as smoothly or as usefully as Reyna.
you never actually made a single point about the "unison of abilities" in reyna's kit. you love doing this thing where you make an argument that essentially amounts to "ISO is bad at this thing that other agents are good at. No im not going to explain why or how or give any actual reasoning. That is why ISO is bad :)" Just because you say words does not make them reality... im done here you continue to talk in circles and make "arguments" devoid of any actual reasoning.
sdgdfdrgdrfgdrgdrfttdhy [#30]Outside of using popularity and win rate stats the opinionated points surrounding Iso's kit can be easily deemed as subjective.
saying shit like this is how i know you're a dumbass. I guess we buff the shit outta harbor kayo astra fade etc. then because their pick rates and winrates are below average. lets not ignore the fact that there will always be agents with lower pick rates or win rate because its statistically impossible for there not to be. lets ignore the fact that these statistics have no actual link with how powerful an agent actually is (harbor kayo etc.) no instead lets place 100% of our stock on these statistics. I cant wait until kayo ult is 6 cost and he has 3 flashes.
All his Q/"Undercut" provides is the fragile effect.
Fade's seize provides a decay, restricts movement and deafens the enemy. Whilst also providing a slight indicator to whether an enemy was hit or not. That's not even mentioning the other util Fade provides.yes and the vulnerable lasts longer, hits more, moves faster, is harder to dodge, combos with more util, is easier to play off as an individual, is effective for longer (decay fades faster), and is able to be fired while behind a wall...
Iso's one charge thin wall is not better than Harbor's two charges which has the option to stopped.
this is another fun intentional misinterpretation by you :). I was comparing it to a single harbor wall not 2. but ok. Regardless the harbor wall is not as strong for taking space an ISO wall. the slowing effect is practically useless in reality. the stopping point is MAYBE the only thing that harbor actually has over ISO.
you are forgetting the flexibility of use cases that the devour/dismiss combo allows for
... this is gibberish spouted by an idiot who wants to appear intelligent. there is only one use case for reyna e/q and iso e and that is you get a kill. reyna either lets you get out or heal. iso only lets you have a barrier in exchange for only taking up one ability slot and lasting for a longer period.
Reyna's kit works well for individual expression which it was made for
again this is gibberish made by someone who wants to seem smart. there is no individual expression through reyna's kit. in fact she has one of the least expressive kits in the entire game. your idea of individual expression seems to be "duuuuur i push" or "duuuuur i didnt push." there is no way to express your individuality through reyna's kit as her abilities will always result in the exact same outcome no matter who uses them or how they are used. Any "expression" you gain access to from reyna is "expression" you have equal access to on ANY OTHER AGENT IN THE GAME...
Iso has individuality in some of his abilities but in unison the kit does not function as smoothly or as usefully as Reyna.
you never actually made a single point about the "unison of abilities" in reyna's kit. you love doing this thing where you make an argument that essentially amounts to "ISO is bad at this thing that other agents are good at. No im not going to explain why or how or give any actual reasoning. That is why ISO is bad :)" Just because you say words does not make them reality... im done here you continue to talk in circles and make "arguments" devoid of any actual reasoning.
Probably good to end it there then considering I have constantly mentioned points which go in one ear and out the other.
It's obvious to see the likes of harbor/astra are in a healthy spot when looking at their stats in a pro play scenarios or actually just understanding that their kits require teamwork and macro usage but you are so focused about me bringing up ranked stats because I was trying to emphasise the fact Iso is not a successful ranked agent. Which I literally mentioned when you used the strawman argument for Kay/o.
The basis of the argument is that iso kit has not translated well for either Pro Play or in Ranked.
but you are adamant that he is in a good spot for solo q.
capital_d_colon [#32]Probably good to end it there then considering I have constantly mentioned points which go in one ear and out the other.
It's obvious to see the likes of harbor/astra are in a healthy spot when looking at their stats in a pro play scenarios or actually just understanding that their kits require teamwork and macro usage but you are so focused about me bringing up ranked stats because I was trying to emphasise the fact Iso is not a successful ranked agent. Which I literally mentioned when you used the strawman argument for Kay/o.The basis of the argument is that iso kit has not translated well for either Pro Play or in Ranked.
but you are adamant that he is in a good spot for solo q.
Probably good to end it there then considering I have constantly mentioned points which go in one ear and out the other.
Im actually done here but its fun to see it end the same as it started... with you lying :)
Mortadelo [#24]Sure, all his abilities got buffed, and that is why he got buffed, not reworked. If I make his ult last 50 seconds that is a buff, if I change his ult for something else that is a rework. It’s a completely different thing. Only thing I could buy is reworked is the decoy
I disagree, I mean character reworks are meant to change how the agents are played, not necessarily to “rework” their abilities.
The way yoru was utilized pre-patch was very stale and stiff because he had very little options with his utility; when he ulted it was almost only for info; his decoy really had no effect on the game; and his TP was always going to be used or not used. Keep in mind, pre-patch yoru couldn’t get rid of a TP and use another one, he had to wait for the TP to go out first.
Yoru’s changes allowed him to take more space and more selfishly; his ult lets him use his util and lets him scout the entire site before choosing what fight to take, along with being able to fake TP’s and use his decoy as a means to entry; as the decoy gives him good information if shot, and most people will shoot the first thing that walks by, or at least look at it while yoru peeks.
Yoru’s gameplay style changed and he gained so many more options that I would count it as a rework, other games like OW2 with sombra, pretty much the entirety of LoL, and apex make reworks like this too. This is why chamber’s update wasn’t necessarily a rework because he fundamentally plays the same, yoru fundamentally changed for the better, which is a buff, but it still is a rework.
Hyopic [#34]I disagree, I mean character reworks are meant to change how the agents are played, not necessarily to “rework” their abilities.
The way yoru was utilized pre-patch was very stale and stiff because he had very little options with his utility; when he ulted it was almost only for info; his decoy really had no effect on the game; and his TP was always going to be used or not used. Keep in mind, pre-patch yoru couldn’t get rid of a TP and use another one, he had to wait for the TP to go out first.
Yoru’s changes allowed him to take more space and more selfishly; his ult lets him use his util and lets him scout the entire site before choosing what fight to take, along with being able to fake TP’s and use his decoy as a means to entry; as the decoy gives him good information if shot, and most people will shoot the first thing that walks by, or at least look at it while yoru peeks.
Yoru’s gameplay style changed and he gained so many more options that I would count it as a rework, other games like OW2 with sombra, pretty much the entirety of LoL, and apex make reworks like this too. This is why chamber’s update wasn’t necessarily a rework because he fundamentally plays the same, yoru fundamentally changed for the better, which is a buff, but it still is a rework.
I get what you mean but that is just not how I would define a rework. The way an agent is played can completely shift without even being touched, just with time or because one team proposes something new that becomes popular.
I get you guys points tho, Ig it's just a technicality about how what we understand as an agent rework
Mortadelo [#35]I get what you mean but that is just not how I would define a rework. The way an agent is played can completely shift without even being touched, just with time or because one team proposes something new that becomes popular.
I get you guys points tho, Ig it's just a technicality about how what we understand as an agent rework
That's fair, although I will say, I do not think yoru would have continued to receive play had the rework not happened. It wasn't a case like viper, where she was good the entire time but no one used her correctly, he just literally had no options besides the barebones of his kit.
sdgdfdrgdrfgdrgdrfttdhy [#33]Probably good to end it there then considering I have constantly mentioned points which go in one ear and out the other.
Im actually done here but its fun to see it end the same as it started... with you lying :)
Calling someone a dumbass doesn't support your argument bro just saying
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