Do pro teams really need flashes?

Reason 1: Other abilities are far better at clearing space (Drone, Prowler, Dart, Dog)

Reason 2: Need to interact with other pieces of utility, shooting dart or prowler/run away from drone or dog

Reason 3: Can give exact information when flashes cannot, which then allows for combination with other utility.

Counterpoint:
Long rang initiating fights and combination with other primary utility.
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if teams are making compromises for no flashes in order to make a more well rounded comp, could that be a first possible thing to go?

Examples: Icebox meta has not had flashes for a very long time. SaD just played Bind without flashes and won all of their games in the Knights tournament.

yes

the reliability of them is what matters, throwing a Sova dart or sending out a prowler isn't gonna ensure that the enemy is gonna stop holding whatever it is that they're holding whereas smth like a Skye bird can. Initiator util can be shot down by an enemy's ally too.

Yes and no. Certain flashes are more potent bc they provide sight line denial in addition to space creation. They also can be really effective at breaking crosshair placement. Breach flashes for ex, aren’t that impactful. Most pros are good enough to consistently turn them and maintain crosshair placement on all but perfect timing. But Skye flashes (bc of info), reyna flashes (bc of sightline denial), and kayo flashes (bc they can be unturnable) will have some level of significant impact.

Nah just throw a pistol and watch them turn away

zardinez [#4]

Yes and no. Certain flashes are more potent bc they provide sight line denial in addition to space creation. They also can be really effective at breaking crosshair placement. Breach flashes for ex, aren’t that impactful. Most pros are good enough to consistently turn them and maintain crosshair placement on all but perfect timing. But Skye flashes (bc of info), reyna flashes (bc of sightline denial), and kayo flashes (bc they can be unturnable) will have some level of significant impact.

Well said.

zardinez [#4]

Yes and no. Certain flashes are more potent bc they provide sight line denial in addition to space creation. They also can be really effective at breaking crosshair placement. Breach flashes for ex, aren’t that impactful. Most pros are good enough to consistently turn them and maintain crosshair placement on all but perfect timing. But Skye flashes (bc of info), reyna flashes (bc of sightline denial), and kayo flashes (bc they can be unturnable) will have some level of significant impact.

do you think that flashes would be the first thing to go?

it is dependent on how many consistent options you have on a map to win a round. A map like icebox does not require u to be able to push thru contested space the same way bind or ascent does. Short answer is yes, real answer is jsut depends on what map/meta

no fuck the flashes fr

cartixuzi [#3]

the reliability of them is what matters, throwing a Sova dart or sending out a prowler isn't gonna ensure that the enemy is gonna stop holding whatever it is that they're holding whereas smth like a Skye bird can. Initiator util can be shot down by an enemy's ally too.

i disagree with this, anderzztv brought up a really interesting way of looking at it, called angle denial consistency. if you can jiggle or dodge flashes then they really have low effectiveness at pushing someone off an angle. we see this especially with skye and breach, where pros are just used to dodging the flash that it is rarely effective at getting someone off an angle.

this is a really interesting question tbh. i like the point in the meta we're at rn, where teams have a choice of weather or not to pursue double controller and if they do, they can either do no flashes (like the FNC lotus comp), flashes with solo skye (now has a huge downside ofc), or even go for the yoru duelist and keep both flashes and recon (this is the wilder, but arguably better tradeoff).

or you could be boring and go back to double initiator. we'll see what comp approach ends up coming on top, but i love that we now have 4 or potentially more styles of comp that may clash against each other. truly a great time for diversity on most maps.

also are you TMVpilled by any chance

valcygnus [#10]

i disagree with this, anderzztv brought up a really interesting way of looking at it, called angle denial consistency. if you can jiggle or dodge flashes then they really have low effectiveness at pushing someone off an angle. we see this especially with skye and breach, where pros are just used to dodging the flash that it is rarely effective at getting someone off an angle.

dodging the flash breaks crosshair placement, at that point its alr served its purpose especially when the flash can be delayed like Skye's, good teams will make use of this advantage most of the time. This sorta insurance can't be made with info util.

valcygnus [#11]

this is a really interesting question tbh. i like the point in the meta we're at rn, where teams have a choice of weather or not to pursue double controller and if they do, they can either do no flashes (like the FNC lotus comp), flashes with solo skye (now has a huge downside ofc), or even go for the yoru duelist and keep both flashes and recon (this is the wilder, but arguably better tradeoff).

or you could be boring and go back to double initiator. we'll see what comp approach ends up coming on top, but i love that we now have 4 or potentially more styles of comp that may clash against each other. truly a great time for diversity on most maps.

also are you TMVpilled by any chance

ofc i’m TMV pilled, but i was wondering the same thing because i am making a video about FNATIC on lotus, than also a video on icebox meta, which has historically had little flashes, then SaD played on bind without flashes. sorta just a weird time in metas.

xero1 [#13]

ofc i’m TMV pilled, but i was wondering the same thing because i am making a video about FNATIC on lotus, than also a video on icebox meta, which has historically had little flashes, then SaD played on bind without flashes. sorta just a weird time in metas.

based! also what's ur yt channel i might give it a watch

and yes this is arguably the most interesting meta time since the chamber nerf, hope to see more yoru and gekko being played

flash = cant see = cant shoot back

cant shoot back ideally converts to -1 enemy player

valorant with no flashes is just coinflipping wins

yoru meta here we go

valcygnus [#14]

based! also what's ur yt channel i might give it a watch

and yes this is arguably the most interesting meta time since the chamber nerf, hope to see more yoru and gekko being played

IsaaaValorant, analysis vids soon but none so far.

cartixuzi [#12]

dodging the flash breaks crosshair placement, at that point its alr served its purpose especially when the flash can be delayed like Skye's, good teams will make use of this advantage most of the time. This sorta insurance can't be made with info util.

having to destroy a dart, drone, haunt, dog, etc also messes up crosshair placement (however, the flash inits still have these in their kits, so its about equal)

PuGGey [#15]

flash = cant see = cant shoot back

cant shoot back ideally converts to -1 enemy player

valorant with no flashes is just coinflipping wins

How many flashes in pro matches actually connect and full blind an enemy though?

One of the most dominant teams on a specific map (FNC on Lotus) has been playing no flashes all year. They also played no flash on Icebox, which was another very dominant map for them. It has nothing to do with coinflipping, they just have other ways of achieving the same goal.

Take for example Ascent A site. You are an attacker trying to take the site. Let's assume for a second there are no abilities at all. What you're gonna do is clear every angle carefully. If your opponent is just standing still holding any of these angles, you probably win. So a good player won't do that. If they play say, behind dice, they will jiggle occasionally trying to catch a timing. There's a very good chance you clear that angle, don't see them, and then just as you're clearing the next angle, they peak out and kill you.

So now let's add abilities into the mix. If your opponent plays like this, a flash is gonna have zero impact. It either won't catch them, or it catches them on a jiggle and they simply tuck behind dice for two seconds (which they would have done anway), and you won't get any info (unless it's a Skye flash). A prowler could be much more effective in clearing that out, because they can't out-jiggle it. Any AOE ability behind dice will also likely lead to a kill because they have to swing and you'll be ready for it.

That doesn't mean flashes are useless of course, I watched Acend play Bind earlier and they had some crazy Yoru flash tech, especially when you pair the flash with something like a Fade eye to force them to look at it and pop the flash right in front, guaranteeing one of the two abilities to hit them. But it's not like flashes are the only possible ability, or even the best ability, for denying angles.

jackb2016 [#18]

having to destroy a dart, drone, haunt, dog, etc also messes up crosshair placement (however, the flash inits still have these in their kits, so its about equal)

yes, but its pretty common for sites to be held by more than 1 player like Ascent A site so if info util is sent out, one of the players can remain holding main while the other breaks the util. You can't do that with a flash and its why shit like that is hard to force whoever's holding main into breaking their focus. Retakes would play out like this too.

PuGGey [#15]

flash = cant see = cant shoot back

cant shoot back ideally converts to -1 enemy player

valorant with no flashes is just coinflipping wins

pros with fast reaction time like kangkang can dodge flash easily

flashes are overrated at the pro level tbh, everyone just turns them all these days, the zoomers are too fast

Breloof [#19]

How many flashes in pro matches actually connect and full blind an enemy though?

One of the most dominant teams on a specific map (FNC on Lotus) has been playing no flashes all year. They also played no flash on Icebox, which was another very dominant map for them. It has nothing to do with coinflipping, they just have other ways of achieving the same goal.

Take for example Ascent A site. You are an attacker trying to take the site. Let's assume for a second there are no abilities at all. What you're gonna do is clear every angle carefully. If your opponent is just standing still holding any of these angles, you probably win. So a good player won't do that. If they play say, behind dice, they will jiggle occasionally trying to catch a timing. There's a very good chance you clear that angle, don't see them, and then just as you're clearing the next angle, they peak out and kill you.

So now let's add abilities into the mix. If your opponent plays like this, a flash is gonna have zero impact. It either won't catch them, or it catches them on a jiggle and they simply tuck behind dice for two seconds (which they would have done anway), and you won't get any info (unless it's a Skye flash). A prowler could be much more effective in clearing that out, because they can't out-jiggle it. Any AOE ability behind dice will also likely lead to a kill because they have to swing and you'll be ready for it.

That doesn't mean flashes are useless of course, I watched Acend play Bind earlier and they had some crazy Yoru flash tech, especially when you pair the flash with something like a Fade eye to force them to look at it and pop the flash right in front, guaranteeing one of the two abilities to hit them. But it's not like flashes are the only possible ability, or even the best ability, for denying angles.

https://youtu.be/OdfL8g9BL68?t=11049 look at this, just learn some line ups

cartixuzi [#20]

yes, but its pretty common for sites to be held by more than 1 player like Ascent A site so if info util is sent out, one of the players can remain holding main while the other breaks the util. You can't do that with a flash and its why shit like that is hard to force whoever's holding main into breaking their focus. Retakes would play out like this too.

you can play anti flash, which would be similar to breaking a dart; in each scenario only 1 out of the two players can actively fight when the util is being broken/dodged.

Breloof [#19]

How many flashes in pro matches actually connect and full blind an enemy though?

One of the most dominant teams on a specific map (FNC on Lotus) has been playing no flashes all year. They also played no flash on Icebox, which was another very dominant map for them. It has nothing to do with coinflipping, they just have other ways of achieving the same goal.

Take for example Ascent A site. You are an attacker trying to take the site. Let's assume for a second there are no abilities at all. What you're gonna do is clear every angle carefully. If your opponent is just standing still holding any of these angles, you probably win. So a good player won't do that. If they play say, behind dice, they will jiggle occasionally trying to catch a timing. There's a very good chance you clear that angle, don't see them, and then just as you're clearing the next angle, they peak out and kill you.

So now let's add abilities into the mix. If your opponent plays like this, a flash is gonna have zero impact. It either won't catch them, or it catches them on a jiggle and they simply tuck behind dice for two seconds (which they would have done anway), and you won't get any info (unless it's a Skye flash). A prowler could be much more effective in clearing that out, because they can't out-jiggle it. Any AOE ability behind dice will also likely lead to a kill because they have to swing and you'll be ready for it.

That doesn't mean flashes are useless of course, I watched Acend play Bind earlier and they had some crazy Yoru flash tech, especially when you pair the flash with something like a Fade eye to force them to look at it and pop the flash right in front, guaranteeing one of the two abilities to hit them. But it's not like flashes are the only possible ability, or even the best ability, for denying angles.

good reply, would upvote twice if i could

acels2 [#21]

pros with fast reaction time like kangkang can dodge flash easily

and lose their crosshair placement and possibly lose/have to fall off the angle

bro has never played against a good harbor viper comp

Breloof [#19]

How many flashes in pro matches actually connect and full blind an enemy though?

One of the most dominant teams on a specific map (FNC on Lotus) has been playing no flashes all year. They also played no flash on Icebox, which was another very dominant map for them. It has nothing to do with coinflipping, they just have other ways of achieving the same goal.

Take for example Ascent A site. You are an attacker trying to take the site. Let's assume for a second there are no abilities at all. What you're gonna do is clear every angle carefully. If your opponent is just standing still holding any of these angles, you probably win. So a good player won't do that. If they play say, behind dice, they will jiggle occasionally trying to catch a timing. There's a very good chance you clear that angle, don't see them, and then just as you're clearing the next angle, they peak out and kill you.

So now let's add abilities into the mix. If your opponent plays like this, a flash is gonna have zero impact. It either won't catch them, or it catches them on a jiggle and they simply tuck behind dice for two seconds (which they would have done anway), and you won't get any info (unless it's a Skye flash). A prowler could be much more effective in clearing that out, because they can't out-jiggle it. Any AOE ability behind dice will also likely lead to a kill because they have to swing and you'll be ready for it.

That doesn't mean flashes are useless of course, I watched Acend play Bind earlier and they had some crazy Yoru flash tech, especially when you pair the flash with something like a Fade eye to force them to look at it and pop the flash right in front, guaranteeing one of the two abilities to hit them. But it's not like flashes are the only possible ability, or even the best ability, for denying angles.

the answer here is map geometry more than anything(and a little bit about Viper). Icebox and Lotus are generally incompatible with flashes because they dont have "properly" flashable angles where you need to push an enemy off of, rather they have spots to clear more often than not. Thats why if you see any flashes on those maps its Skye played who couples with Viper to both clear and flash close (wall pop flashed)and deep pockets of the map and provide intel about said spots.

its more about consistency , versatility and number of reuses you can get.

Big part people underestimate is the ability to make plays through smokes. No flash comps have historically lost out when teams lock them out of consistent chokepoints (Ex. fnc comp on lotus being picked apart by proper antistratting).

PuGGey [#26]

and lose their crosshair placement and possibly lose/have to fall off the angle

which is good if they were holding an angle, and entirely useless if they were jiggling instead

Stuns are the most useless (if compared on a "usefulness" chart against all other abilities), this is quite obvious from playing/watching high level gameplay and most pros are pretty clear about this in voicing their... frustrations.

Based on factors such as map design and comp selection, flashes can range from low impact to crucial in winning tactical engagements.

isnt this just a crude tldr of a recent tmv video?

Breloof [#31]

which is good if they were holding an angle, and entirely useless if they were jiggling instead

yeah, thats why you skye dog or prowler after. I think you fundamentally misinterpret "bad flashes are bad" with "flashes are bad".
Flashes are disruptive utility used to punish/deny a hold and ideally also force a player to reposition. Flashes do this by blinding an enemy into lets say a 90% conversion rate for a full blind. If they aren't full blinded, they have either moved off the angle entirely or fell off the angle momentarily/turned from the flash and lost agency over space they previously controlled at no risk.
Once that has been achieved, Dogs and prowlers and drones are used to clear close corners and angles for teams because they apply a status that make whoever they are walking into easier to take down than if they had no status applied, but also not as easy to take down as if they were rather flashed.
I think its easy to agree that Full blind = harder but better conversion rate, status utility = easier but relatively worse conversion rate

So now if we look at a comp with no flashes, you are forced rather to push off a kangkang with molly's(risky and do not regenerate) and concusses(not a particularly effective status condition unfortunately). Mollys and concusses also force minimal repositioning for their low disruption(neither good nor bad, just different); and on a no flash team, hits like that are prone to being shut down entirely by powerful defensive utility. Ultimately no flash teams hinge on incompetent and unprepared opposition, and limit defensive player predictability which creates inconsistencies which removes wincons and ultimately creates losses.

Also if you don't think jiggling is coinflipping then you should check out any radiant streaming ever and wait for them to blow up on their 12/14/1 Jett and explain

PuGGey [#34]

yeah, thats why you skye dog or prowler after. I think you fundamentally misinterpret "bad flashes are bad" with "flashes are bad".
Flashes are disruptive utility used to punish/deny a hold and ideally also force a player to reposition. Flashes do this by blinding an enemy into lets say a 90% conversion rate for a full blind. If they aren't full blinded, they have either moved off the angle entirely or fell off the angle momentarily/turned from the flash and lost agency over space they previously controlled at no risk.
Once that has been achieved, Dogs and prowlers and drones are used to clear close corners and angles for teams because they apply a status that make whoever they are walking into easier to take down than if they had no status applied, but also not as easy to take down as if they were rather flashed.
I think its easy to agree that Full blind = harder but better conversion rate, status utility = easier but relatively worse conversion rate

So now if we look at a comp with no flashes, you are forced rather to push off a kangkang with molly's(risky and do not regenerate) and concusses(not a particularly effective status condition unfortunately). Mollys and concusses also force minimal repositioning for their low disruption(neither good nor bad, just different); and on a no flash team, hits like that are prone to being shut down entirely by powerful defensive utility. Ultimately no flash teams hinge on incompetent and unprepared opposition, and limit defensive player predictability which creates inconsistencies which removes wincons and ultimately creates losses.

Also if you don't think jiggling is coinflipping then you should check out any radiant streaming ever and wait for them to blow up on their 12/14/1 Jett and explain

I never said flashes are bad