Is masters 2 going to be worth more than masters 1

#1

Aayan

from here on out?
Prefacing this by saying: I am not claiming Masters 1 is mickey mouse, or that it isn't a commendable achievement

It seems Riot have settled on making the decision to have Kickoff qualifying for Masters 1 and Split 1 for qualifying to Masters 2. imo this is really bad, I think it should be consistent.
Kickoff is a cool idea, but I think there's just no place for it (LCQ is a very similar, but more fitting imo).
The prize pools for 2025 haven't been announced yet afaik, but going off of 2024: Masters 1 is worth half of Masters 2. This actually makes the difference between Masters 1 and Masters 2 very similar to the difference between Masters 2 and Champions (outside of different group formats). Honestly to me this really makes it look like Riot are pushing for Champs > M2 > M1 when it should be Champs > M2 >= M1

Speaking of consistency we have to talk about the number of teams, 8 is far, far too few and I'm frankly surprised I haven't seen more people speak about this. It should be 12 teams, the exact same as Masters 2. The only plausible explanation is that Riot wants to save money, which I understand, but 8 teams really undermines the title of 'Masters winner' imo

tl;dr: Both Masters have different ways to qualify, Prizepool is very different, M1 has 8 teams only

#2

gamergirl

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this is so delulu, sen played 7 games to qualify for masters 1, gen.g played 10 games to qualify for masters 2 but they qualified after 8 i believe.

#3

Aayan

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That's not the point
For Madrid, we had GSL style groups with seeding
For Stage 1 we had half a round robin

meaning that if you lose two games it's a gg at kickoff
the top teams will get through regardless of the format, but it completely kills off teams who have the potential to win events, but need a bit to find their footing when the season starts (Take G2 for example, I think if we had 3 slots + a stage format they would've easily qualified)

I'm assuming you're not against 12 teams

#7

gamergirl

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g2 had a different roster and lost to mibr, they werent winning anything

the best teams always qualify, and the best team always wins

the winner of masters 1 is the best team at the time, the winner of masters 2 is the best team at the time

maybe just stop looking for reasons to downplay one or the other because it really doesnt matter lol

GEN.G played the same amount of matches to win shanghai that sen did to win madrid, and played two more matches to qualify

who tf cares if worse teams qualify if they dont make it past groups to play the teams who are higher seeded

#9

Aayan

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Sure, maybe G2 wouldn't have. But how do you know they or another team didn't have it in them?
I never said the best teams don't win, and I am not downplaying the winners of Masters 1 (cmon, literally the second line of the post, in bold)
If 'who tf cares' what's wrong with trying to make the format more consistent?
This post is about the event itself not the winners, I think you've misunderstood

#12

gamergirl

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you talk about consistency, i explained to you why it didnt matter, you said masters should = masters, i told you why it does

why did you make this post if you dont want an answer? Im not arguing, i gave you the facts, which is shanghai and madrid are equals

riot probably doesnt want to be producing the most expensive events in the beginning of the year, or maybe its just to have variety in the season lol.. but it quite literally changes nothing

#15

Aayan

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shanghai and madrid are equals

this is not an objective fact though, sure I agree the trophy holds the same value, but the event doesn't

I just completely disagree with your take on events

You think only the top teams matter at international events matter, and that the lower teams are insignificant.
Also your point on seeding's pretty shoddy, we've seen lower seeds do well and higher seeds flop.

Those lower teams are still important in my opinion, sure they're less important than the top teams but they're not so insignificant that they deserve to be cut out.

Upping the prize pool and increasing the number of teams won't make it the 'most expensive' event. Yeah it will drive up the cost on Riots end but it'll make orgs more attractive to invest in it'll likely increase viewership and therefore bundle sales. The VCT ecosystem will be better off

Also what is this about not wanting an answer? I want to argue, that's why I made this post. We are arguing. If you don't want to argue fine, don't

edit: also you can still have variety, in fact you should have variety. Just not with Masters, but with Champs

#4

Shadow_Monarch

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"Honestly to me this really makes it look like Riot are pushing for Champs > M2 > M1 when it should be Champs > M2 >= M1"

Hmm now that I think about it, I agree with you on this. I think they're doing their best to make sure Masters is nothing compared to Champions.

#6

Aayan

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imo that's fine
in fact I think it should be that way (similar dynamic to MSI and Worlds)

but surely Masters should = Masters right?

#14

Shadow_Monarch

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Thats what I thought at first, but then Masters would have too much credit.
But yeah it'd be more fun for viewers to see more teams play in Masters 1, and more challenging for Teams to win Masters 1 and deserve its worth instead of thinking or comparing that Masters 2 and Champions are worth more value. If that makes sense.

#16

Aayan

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Yeah I agree with you on that
The distinction between Champs and Masters 2 should be clearer.

This is a completely separate and out there take but I think Champs should be Bo5 Single Elim for playoffs

#5

Kirya

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Yes for sure

#8

Nef0r0

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"The prize pools for 2025 haven't been announced yet afaik, but going off of 2024: Masters 1 is worth half of Masters 2." How much does the winner get?

#10

Aayan

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Madrid was 500k and Shanghai was 1M
Seoul was 2.25M

#11

Nef0r0

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Yeah but I already googled the difference, Sen got 250k for Madrid Gen.g got 350 for Shanghai, it honestly doesn't make it too stark of a difference

#17

Aayan

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Sure for #1 (100k is still a lot) but the rest of the prize pool trickles down to the rest of the teams

on avg Madrid teams made less than Shanghai teams (500k/8 vs 1000k/12)

#20

Nef0r0

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I guess first masters is just to warm up, sorta? First time we see cross regional games

#13

Veri

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Not entirely related to the topic but one thing that always bothered me is how champions doesnt feel unique enough. Its clearly the most important tournament of the year but Riot doesnt do anything to make it feel like it. It has more teams and bigger prize pools but thats it. I dont even know how i would fix this but im sure im not the only one bothered by this.

#18

Aayan

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Yeah 100%
I've thought about this too
and honestly the only way I can think is to copy the Worlds playoff format (see #16)

#19

shrike-

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every tier 1 team knows how the tournament works, and every team should be able to prepare well enough at any point throughout the season, even at the very beginning; so they can win a trophy

no vct event is a mickey mouse because everyone is working towards the same thing. if a team does better than you, they’re just the better team on the day and deserve the trophy more than you. goes for masters 1, masters 2, champions, whatever

people shouldn’t call an event mickey mouse because their favorite team did shit when it mattered

both events matter to all teams. they should be treated the same way because everyone puts in the same effort

#21

Kaito_M8

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Make sense, good post

#22

nutab1e

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masters 1 is mickey mouse and it isn't a commendable achievement

#23

welikefortniteandvalorant

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so americas went winless last year

#25

nutab1e

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yes

#26

welikefortniteandvalorant

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understandable have a nice day

#24

Er3ngenes1s

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exactly. having 4 teams in playoffs is just way too low competition compared to previous masters

#27

VGG

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crazy how fnatic fans always try to downplay madrid
because Sen won it
but the truth is

Madrid GF Sen vs Gen
shanghai GF GEN vs TH both madrid teams
seoul GF EDG vs TH both madrid team again and 3/4 top team in seoul were madrid team too

team you guys claim could have easily won madrid but fail to qualify only due to poor format
like fnatic.g2.Nrg or navi weren't even close to a trophy this year lol

#28

Aayan

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I never said any of this anywhere (In fact I say the opposite in the second line, in bold)
you're looking for someone to say these things for some reason

What I'm saying will be equally true for Bangkok, even if FNC win it

I never generalised SEN fans so why are you generalising all FNC fans?

#29

x_knowitall39_x

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Classic sen flair