Facts

I'd say the bottom half of CN teams > any other region's bottom half of teams. The whole region is surprisingly competitive, NOVA and JDG are not bad at all, even TEC who went 0-5 isn't actually that bad, it's just that the other teams are better - hey they were literally one round away from sending TH home, who then went on to win the EWC.

It's also funny af I swear China in every esports is known for pulling off the most random shit, still remember OWL Chengdu (2-4) vs Vancouver (6-0) that was the most ridiculous shit I've ever seen it's like they all woke up and decided they know how to play the game now

EDG are in their experimentation phase again, pretty similar to just before champs. We just have to believe they'll find smth they are comfortable sticking with, they'll do good then. Hopefully nobody will improve at the yoru

Yes I think without all the drama it would've been wise to stick with S1mon for at least another few months but what happened was pretty unrecoverable, the way he immaturely handled things on stream made the situation far worse and his comments only fueled the fire which eventually led to the doxxing of Smoggy by his fans. It would've been extremely hard to reconcile from everything that occured from that and onwards, and from what I can remember they were already having chemistry issues during bangkok (from each of the teammate's statements). S1mon's mental was a big factor in this, tilting during their bangkok games and making comments like "I can't shoot, I dont want to play anymore, just sub me out" is def not great for the team mental and especially clashes with KK who tries to do the opposite

Also I'd argue the main reason why double init is no longer meta is BECAUSE of yoru, yes there are a few maps where you can get away with not running him. But the fact you can instead run double controller (or even double duelist) and STILL have flashes and an intiaition ult (yoru) is the main reason why it's so meta right now - it's just that teams have finally figured that out, pair that with Vyse who has great initiation capability too.

EDG were trying not to run Yoru for so long which has backfired so that's why they're trying so hard. The best teams are all running Yoru right now and it's clear that he's just so good

Thats not what I meant, in this meta S1mon wouldn't be a good fit at all. His main strength was great stun/flash initiation (who Muggle gave great credit to, and especially holding back his teammates from pushing without util), which overshadowed and made up for his lack in mechanics and also poor mental. When you take the importance of double init away his weaknesses start to become an issue. Once the double init was countered (take a look at the last 6 maps at bangkok that they played) he was frequently put in positions where the gunfights/decision making were the deciding factor, yet he couldn't hit shots on people who he even blinded himself or the individual decision making was questionable. How can you say that in this current meta he would be the solution, what would he play? And why would he be better than any other option they might have

AfteR's strats are what held EDG back until champs. He made them play slow methodical fnatic style for a whole year and it just doesn't work for a team where their main strengths are aggro fighting (it did build discipline for them though). Nobody had most of the say in terms of the comps and strats for champs and why they looked so different playstyle wise. I think what he's saying is either right now or after champs, Muggle has been copying AfteR's strats - which might be true ngl

Brother its been 2 games. The last time nobody yoru worked, this time it didn't. Why are you so fast to react, this is the same reason why SEN was shit for so long cause they wouldn't stick with one roster and just improve together over time

Wait seriously? Bro AfteR's strats were the problem

I know that on paper these things look so sure and perfect but in reality there's thousands of reasons for why this may not work out. At the very least I think EDG should have trialled slowly by now but in these team environments there's so much random shit that may cause chemistry issues etc. People were also saying zjc would be the solution to EDG but look how that worked out. I do really want to see EDG slowly but for now we need to at least believe in the current roster, they need time

Just give them time lmao, they're still experimenting to find something comfortable, that's why they're doing all these role changes cause they realised change is needed. The coordination and calling has been looking far better since a month ago.

Smoggy being their most flexible player should NOT be on smokes
Jieni looks very good on the omen, and his smoke timings have been better than Smoggy's so far.

Nobody just needs to work on his Yoru, or honestly it couldve just been a bad day for him. He looked better last time

wont solve anything unfortunately

Jieni has been training Yoru since before all the S1mon drama since he's on the academy roster. But it obvs didn't work out

Also sorry but double init is no longer meta, with S1mon he wouldn't have "dominated" in those comps. EDG kept trying to force what worked for them in the past instead of adapting to the new meta. S1mon's strength has always been really strong supportive util, while his mechanics don't consistently match up to his teammates/enemies. I know he CAN aim and pull of shit at times, but that doesn't mean that's consistent. Look at how S1mon performed in bangkok, his aim wasn't even at the t1 level - missing 15 shots on enemies who he full blinded is crazy. When you take away the importance of what made S1mon good, all you have left is an average player. Sorry.

It seems this is a genuine question, it's probably best to ask these on the valcomp subreddit btw cause you'll get more analytical takes. I can explain the reason here but I first want to make sure you actually do want to know, I'll have to put some time into it cause it goes into what made EDG good over the years (from 2022 onwards) and why 2024 Champs was the culmination of that

Lowkey true

They're moving away from it on most maps thankfully, ig breach is somewhat justified on sunset but iirc his winrate has never been great

Nobody has shared that he feels best calling on initiator, we've been able to see the negative affects on the midrounding when he isn't on a proactive agent who can gather info (whether that be through util, or agressively with a tp mechanic)

Also when double init is no longer meta, can we really be confident in S1mon to perform on roles where flashes/stuns aren't the main factor. I don't think his aim matches up to the t1 level, and his performance at bangkok was pretty evident of that. His main thing has always been very good support util and not much else

currently nobody and chichoo are sharing the role of IGL, they've shared that this has been far more comfortable for them. Chichoo has fit kind of into a secondary caller role anyway for at least a year now. On maps where nobody plays yoru it's likely chichoo takes over some parts of the midrounding. Smoggy has learnt the most roles out of everyone on EDG so it makes the most sense to keep him on flex, he probably hasn't learnt Yoru as much as Nobody has. Maybe in the future with more time/practice we could see Smoggy yoru, but regardless it seems the team succeeds the most when Nobody gets to play his game style - that's why you see him lurk so much

How exactly have you determined that it was a smear campaign and not S1mon actually being an issue

? He's playing smokes SO smoggy (who used to flex) can play other roles. Nobody said he wants to play Yoru

Not really, WOL are playing bad in general. Juicy also can't shoot in CN for some reason

?

hey I believe in the upset

It's been 2 maps, they might run him on yoru for others

EDG were very good at champs with S1mon, my point was they already started being shit somewhere between the start of bangkok and the end of cn split with him

Also nope I've watched HK/TW matches with S1mon
Answer me this, do you think his aim is good enough to be T1 level
We all saw his performance at bangkok

Sure he might be flexible, but his advantage has always been really good support flashes/stuns - once that is no longer important (this meta where double init is no longer viable apart from 1-2 maps) why would S1mon be the key to EDG's success

Would you prefer CHICHOO on viper or S1mon on viper?
Would you prefer Nobody on init or S1mon on init? (Since I believe you are an EDG fan, I think you know how EDG look whenever nobody isn't on init)
If S1mon was still on this team, he'd be made to play whatever Jieni is playing rn

LMFAOOOOOOO

Yeah it's cause he used to only play duelist, it wasn't until he was in the process of joining EDG that he started learning all the other roles. I was pretty impressed he even played omen pretty well today

He's just had even more time to practice and improve, looks like it's finally paying out

allegations? 😭
since when was that even in doubt, I doubt they'd lie about that
all the EDG players think he's hardworking too

zjc was picked up in the first place because EDG were still trying to lean into the same playstyle (double init) that won them champs - this is also what fan backlash/pressure has been wanting. They've finally realised that isn't going to work anymore in this new meta and that's why he's off

They have literally tried basically what you are suggesting, in their game against Trace - zjc had the chance to play recon, moving nobody off of init - and if you watched the match you can see how terribly that worked out, I haven't seen EDG play this lost since last year vs LOUD. In the past even, any time they have tried moving nobody off of init it hasn't worked well and calling has suffered - nobody himself has said he is most comfortable calling on init too.

Because of how packed the schedule has been recently, the fact they've had far more time to practice with Jieni than with zjc, and since they still need to ensure they actually make champs - are probably the reasons why EDG decided to go back to Jieni, he was the one they practiced trying new meta comps with the most and in the past - they've also been said to have been performing really well in scrims with him. And after today's game it's evident that they look far more comfortable, and aren't just randomly wandering around the map on attack.

And don't get me wrong, I was hype af when zjc was joning the team. And he still has a lot of potential, but since they're already in the split ig they'll need more time to cook with him, Jieni also used to be a duelist main so as of now he is more flexible - that can change in the future once zjc has more time to practice the other roles though, I do want to see him shine

biased? All I have said is he played well today - he made smart decisions and had better aim than zjc (TODAY)
I'm not sure what else you think I'm trying to imply

And TYL is a very good team

literally all I have said is he played well, I'm not the OP lmao
I'm also waiting for the next matches hoping he continues this performance
my point is the stats don't really do him justice (especially since Ascent ratings are still being calculated rn)

Also TYL is not a shit team, they are very good. You probably think this cause you don't watch CN
But this match today was of high quality

I think TRACE 2-1

What's your point? He played well this match, looks like he's practiced a lot
You're trying to say he hasn't, when the proof (the match) is he did - obviously you don't have to watch it, so why have such a strong opinion

they literally tried moving nobody off recon and it doesn't work
you've just proved you don't know what you're talking about

and why exactly do you think they would try S1mon on viper, a role he's not comfortable playing, do you think he's gonna suddenly be a good lurker? - instead of Chichoo who has been playing that almost his entire career

you're either baiting or stupid
chose which one

typical sen fan

I mean, he just doesn't play the roles they need him to since they've finally decided to stop forcing double init

did you watch the match, he played extremely well and smart

Unfortunately I don't think that's happening, from how all teams are playing it's likely TRACE will even beat BLG

Yeah they were trying to lean into fan backlash/pressure to play like they did with S1mon, when the meta has already changed - the current map pool is even worse for double init and the game today was the first time they have tried moving away from that (apart from the one vs Trace where they tried to move nobody off of init instead, which didn't work)

It wasn't much his fault as much as role problems were
Jieni is playing really well though

EDG was already shit with s1mon, they were getting worse in CN and scrims while with him. You just don't have any idea what you're talking about - if Simon was still on this team he'd have to flex onto either smokes/sentinel, viper or yoru. How do you think that would work out?

Have you perhaps considered due to meta changes that they were already falling off with simon, they were forcing the same double init comps from champs that were no longer meta, it was bound to cause issues for them. In CN and scrims, they were slowly looking much worse over time. S1mon has to either flex smokes, sentinel, viper, or yoru if he was still on this team

Role issues, double init is not really viable (except for 1 or 2 maps)

On all other maps where only one init is ideal, it either forces zjc onto an uncomfortable role or nobody off of initiator (what they did against trace, and did not work). Nobody seems to call and perform the best when playing init, and kk seems to coordinate better that way too

Jieni is able to flex more than zjc, at least for now. If zjc learns all roles jieni does and plays them better, we could potentially see him back. But if jieni works for them, it's likely they'll stay with him - and that may be wise

TYL is very good, that is not the bare minimum lmao

It wouldnt really work cause of the meta, double init isn't great rn. He'd have to be able to flex either smokes/sentinel or yoru

I think its fine, smoggy plays all roles very well. It makes more sense because he flexes better than jieni does

Ok after watching the match I understand, double init is no longer meta (at least on most maps). The init-duelist chemistry is not there when nobody is not on initiator, so keeping zjc doesnt work for them because of role issues. If zjc learns to play the roles that jieni must fulfill (omen rn) then potentially he may come back. But honestly if edg does well with jieni and these new roles then it might be wise to stick with him

zjc might be back later, I doubt they'd add him and try him for only this amount of time. I hope this is just an exception and not them actually going back to jieni

I lowkey wanna see Tyloo make champs too