Yuh_aye
Flag: United States
Registered: May 6, 2024
Last post: December 11, 2024 at 6:38 PM
Posts: 1661
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Yeah stats aren't everything but you calling him 'way better' is a prime example of zellsis being underrated. The zellsis isn't no slouch and the gap isn't that big. Put the stats aside for a second and what do they both have going for them as a flex?

X

  • Better Aim
  • Better overall initiator

Y

  • Better Breach
  • More Flexible

Once you account for the stats being essentially equal, is choosing between X and Y some no-brainer?

Dare I even bring up Zellsis's finals stats against Gen.G compared to Woot (in his prime) (on duelist) against GenG?

posted 1 month ago

Alfajer lookin like a polar bear in that lineup

posted 1 month ago

Meteor, Chichoo,

and one of Less, Alfa, Benjy, or Flashback for the 3rd spot

imo Less >>> Benjy = Flashback >= Alfa

posted 1 month ago

Agree with most of what you said. But he's overrated forsure still. People are putting him in 'top senti's in the world' lists. You can't be in those lists if you haven't been winning, even if we know the talent is there. There's a reason why if you listed the top smokes player in the world you wouldn't put pancada.

posted 1 month ago

Once yall solve the incredible mystery of Player X you'll notice that he never gets clowned (not that I think he should) the way Zellsis does.

posted 1 month ago

if anything, Zellsis is actually underrated

Champs 2024

Zellsis - 5 Agents, 3 Roles, 0.98 Rating

Player X - 6 Agents, 2 roles, 0.99 Rating

posted 1 month ago

Overrated != Bad

He just can't be considered one of the top players in his role, let alone the world, if he hasn't done much internationally (and yet...), and its been a very long time since he has done anything internationally

He has 1 international win since the grand final vs Acend in 2021: https://www.vlr.gg/220443/team-liquid-vs-edward-gaming-champions-tour-2023-masters-tokyo-ubqf

posted 1 month ago

Vlr is full of dumbasses

now connect the dots

posted 1 month ago

Queen Shit (srn can't relate)

posted 1 month ago

'Swinging mid like an idiot' ----> 'Swinging mid like an i..."

posted 1 month ago

Florescent - obv reasons
Nats - 1 int win in 3 years (he was the worst in the lobby during that win too)
Verno - getting glazed a little too hard
Kaajak - he is a downgrade from derke
S0m - needs to prove himself again, people still act like hes a top smokes CURRENTLY

posted 1 month ago

you are not freaky,

you are a freak.

posted 1 month ago

understandable

posted 1 month ago

He's knocking on the door but he's not in that convo yet. Needs another good year.

posted 1 month ago

Not that i know of, but reading (the first 2 lines) definitely is

posted 1 month ago

'Accuse the other of that which you are guilty'

https://www.vlr.gg/412408/zekken-belly-button-theory

posted 1 month ago

added

posted 1 month ago

this post is not about the goat debate

But if your criteria for GOAT is "who was the best in their prime, which lasted a meaningful period of time" - which is a common criteria - Then it's yay. Nobody had a prime like him. ESPORTS player of the year.

I don't think he's the goat because that's not my criteria, but he's obviously in the discussion.

posted 1 month ago

ty!

posted 1 month ago

thought about it but I already put riens and I think he's TH's best player by a good margin

posted 1 month ago

added

posted 1 month ago

Everyone knows the GOAT debate : Aspas Tenz Chronicle Less Yay (HM to Sacy, the most decorated)

This thread is not about that. It's about who has the best chance of being in the goat discussion in the future, disregarding those players listed above who are already in it.

Its not ordered outside of the general sections, AND ITS OPINION

----------------------------------------------------
Top Contenders (Most likely)
----------------------------------------------------
Zekken - He already MVP'd a trophy winning run, and had an insane resume long before that. He is also in a prime position to tear it up next year, and might even get another. Edit: some of yall musta forgot

Leo - Might already be the greatest init ever (although im still gonna give that to Sacy). But I think we all know he can get alot done in the future

KangKang - Definitely passes the eye test. A World Champion with the bo5 kill record from that grand finals. Would probably need at least another finals or 2 more top 3 finishes to be in the discussion, as his only real run was his most recent. Definitely a possibility.

----------------------------------------------------
Contenders (Could happen if things go right)
----------------------------------------------------

Demon1 - Already a world champion, with the greatest performance in modern val history. A bad 2024 sets him back a bit, but he is definitely gifted enough to be able to do it in the future if things go right

Mako - In some people's eyes he's already the greatest smokes ever, a trophy would easily seal the deal. And another finals after that might be enough to convince people that he's the greatest regardless of role. DRX has been cooking recently so he's in a good spot right now (in my eyes at least).

----------------------------------------------------
Fringe Contenders (not particularly likely or unlikely)
----------------------------------------------------

Jawgemo - Already a world champion and the greatest raze ever. He would have to MVP a trophy winning run to seal the deal. Most people say that he's in the best position to do this of all the players currently listed, but it's way easier said than done

Derke - He has the stats, but we have 4 years of evidence that he's not good enough to be the best player on a trophy winning team. Like Jawgemo, he would have to MVP a trophy winning run to be in serious goat convos. Way easier said than done.

----------------------------------------------------
Unlikely (distant from the GOAT debate + current situation makes it unlikely to get closer)
----------------------------------------------------

Pancada - MVP'd a champs run, on arguably the greatest team ever. Thats a huge achievement, but he's definitely in a rough spot rn that makes it unlikely he'll do much in the future. And he'd have to do alot

Nats - is on Liquid

Texture/Meteor - Already (co)MVP'd a trophy and was in a finals before that, but like pancada and nats, are not really in a position for success right now. And they'd still have to do alot.

Cned - Is a champion but.... it hasn't been good since then and I just don't alot in store in the future.

Shao - MVP'd a trophy but... it hasn't been good since then and I just don't see alot in store in the future

Alfajer - MVP'd a trophy but... He's not even the best on his own team, and I don't even think he is currently better than Benjy. He'd have to do alot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top Future Talents (not even close to the goat debate, but has the talent to get there eventually)

Primmie - Arguably ALREADY the most talented player in the world mechanically (although i need to see him more on the awp before i give him that)

Oxy - is on C9 (the only thing holding him back)

Riens - already had a phenomenal year individually, looks poised to match it again

Cryo - He's nuts. Was one of the greatest chambers back in the day, was/is a great jett, awper, and rifler. Insanely Talented, but probably needs a better agent pool/ role fix.

Verno - Just compare his tracker to primmie's. His TRS score, ACS, KAST, and HS% are neck-and-neck. The talent is definitely there and the ceiling is HIGH.

Sayf - He's nuts. Imo the best EMEA duelist pure skill wise. Needs to start being nuts at internationals. And continue playing lol

Sayonara - He's nuts. The talent is there

Reduxx - He's nuts. The talent is there

Meiy - He's nuts. The talent is there

Hyunmin - He's nuts. The talent is there

Flashback - He's nuts. The talent is there

posted 1 month ago

Lol, go and watch some matches where he clutches against Loud and BLG

https://youtu.be/1I_wiUETIaM?si=sBik13zgpOOKkmJb

Boaster 1v3 vs BLG

1 player 45 hp
1 player 3 hp

-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/Nikhikg7Xhk?si=1GJUQmrvFcUlNneM

Boaster 1v2 vs BLG

1 player 10 hp (dinked 140)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Leo, the exact same tourney, vs DRX

https://youtu.be/1m41Hp4gfOY?si=upmETlcEVtI3suSD

4k round with a 1v2 clutch at the end

All 4 kills full health

posted 1 month ago

That stat is actually a perfect example of why stats don't tell the whole story. It's very likely that most of the situations he was in his opponent was probably already dinked 140 or something by his teammates and he finishes the job

Nobody actually thinks he was the most clutch player in the world (let alone on his team, shoutout Leo).

In fact, if your life was on the line and you had to choose between 2023 Leo, Chronicle, Alfa, or Boaster to win a 1v1 vs a random to save your life, the debate would be about which of the first 3 you would choose.

posted 1 month ago

the best clutcher on that team was Leo

posted 1 month ago

i guess pointing out someone is frying in t2 is too much for you to handle for some weird reason

posted 1 month ago

https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/2071/challengers-league-2024-north-america-stage-2

wow would you look at that: 1.19. Basically the same shit throughout stage 2

https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/1971/challengers-league-2024-north-america-stage-1

dang and 1.21 in stage 1

Spot the pattern yet?

posted 1 month ago

he's 1.2+ Rating on 3 different roles in the second highest level of competitive val

posted 1 month ago

just click on his 90d stats

posted 1 month ago

miniboo and botster

posted 1 month ago

I may be overreacting but i think hes should be suspended for a year, or at least half of next season, there is truly no room for that word in 2024. I'm working on a twit longer as we speak... This is one of the worst moments of the offseason so far...

posted 2 months ago

probably commit to neon on jett maps

posted 2 months ago

lmaoooo thats lame af, at least come up with a good reason to hate him if your gonna be a hater

posted 2 months ago

https://tracker.gg/valorant/profile/riot/PRX%20something%23112/overview

Has been playing ALOT of Sova and Fade 👀👀👀

posted 2 months ago

That C0m gapped trexx in an elimination match:

https://www.vlr.gg/378672/leviat-n-vs-team-vitality-valorant-champions-2024-decider-c

and ended with better playoff stats than Woot, Kingg, S1mon, and Benjyfishy. Put some respect on tha Champ

posted 2 months ago

ready for a hot one?

TH won't even be a top 3 emea team by halfway through next season

posted 2 months ago

play swiftplay

posted 2 months ago

SEN G2 NRG (any order) are almost certainly the top 3

posted 2 months ago

And the worst is the people who go smokes and one-way the wall

Like why are you even playing tdm at that point, you're not getting any better by doing that shit

posted 2 months ago

its a choice between:

most proven/least talented

even mix of both

least proven/most talented

Also

  • Primmie can definitely play more than just jett
  • Raze/Neon is already 2 of the 3 you need in the current meta
  • When Alfa has played duelist he was very good
  • He's not known for his exceptional micro when he plays KJ/Cypher, he's known for tapping heads
posted 2 months ago

plat cringelords who shift walk around with a phantom in dm would like to have a word with you

posted 2 months ago

I get that

but primmie is the truth bro, it aint that strange to pick him

posted 2 months ago

You start a team and have the draft one as your full-time duelist, which one do you pick?

(Sayf will not bitch about it and will be content on the role, as will the rest)

posted 2 months ago

added to HM's

Also seeing Shao on jett on breeze is crazy lol

posted 2 months ago

I thought I had that Icebox in the HM, but i guess i forgot, added it now

Also added the Sacy Ascent from that series, keep in mind this is for individual maps, and the bar is so high that the 5th place is the Single Map Kill Record

posted 2 months ago

At the end of the day, this is my opinion, you are free to make your own list

I considered 4 factors:

  • The performance itself - Rating, ACS, etc
  • The Setting - the more prestigious the setting, the better
  • How it holds up in the present day
  • Other factors

Honorable Mentions (not ordered or ranked):

Yay Haven vs 100T
QCK Sunset vs EDG
Woot Sunset and Bind vs Navi
Woot Icebox vs FPX
Tehbotol Breeze vs Optic
Tenz Breeze vs F4Q
Aspas Icebox vs C9
Zekken Split vs GenG
Less Icebox vs Optic
Sacy Ascent vs Optic
Shao Haven vs DRX

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#5 Aspas Lotus vs Sentinels

1.92 Rating, 372 ACS , 47/19, +28

The Performance itself: 10/10
The Setting : 6/10
How it holds up in the present day : 10/10
Other factors : 9/10

Total Score : 35/40

The only performance here that wasn't at an international, this Legendary performance set the single map kill record, in a fashion that will likely never be broken, earning it full points in the performance section. Furthermore, it was done in recent history, on comps that will continue to be meta unless there is major update. The only weakness is the setting, not done at an international event, and instead in a regular regional matchup, although he does get a point for doing it against the still-hot SEN, fresh off of their Madrid win.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#4 Cryo Bind vs FUT

2.49 Rating, 439 ACS, 25/4, +21

The Performance Itself : 9.5/10
The Setting : 7.5/10
How it holds up in the present day : 10/10
Other factors : 9/10

Total Score : 36/40

The stats you see at the top are actually not for this game, those are Cryo's stats in the 13-1 stomp of Loud on Ascent done domestically a little later on. While we don't have a rating for shanghai, he actually had higher ACS in that game than the Loud game, while on Brim instead of Jett: 452 ACS, 32/11, +21. Since that it is now in perspective, the high score for Performance/Other are self-evident. Done at a recent international, he also gets full credit for how it holds up. He gets a respectable score for the setting as well, being it was at a masters playoffs, albeit it was the opening match against not a particularly good team.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#3 Marved Haven vs Zeta Division

1.80 Rating, 342 ACS, 35/16, +19

The Performance Itself : 9/10
The Setting : 9.5/10
How it holds up in the present day : 9/10
Other factors : 9/10

Total Score : 36.5/40

35 Kills. No, it is not the International Kill Record, which is 38 by Tehbotol on Breeze, and was almost beaten by Woot on Icebox. Yet, it was damn close, and done in less rounds than both of those matches, earning it a 9 on performance. Furthemore it was done in a lower final, which is about as elite as you can get, earning a 9.5 on setting. Even though this game is now considered a part of valorant history, the way he played omen has still not been significantly improved upon in years since, holding up well to modern standards. And speaking of valorant history, when you talk about 'The Iceman', this haven game is still the first thing you point to as a reminder of what he was capable of. Legacy defining, earning a high mark on other factors.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#2 Nats Fracture vs ACEND

2.37 Rating, 394 ACS, 26/3, +23

The Performance Itself : 10/10
The Setting : 10/10
How it holds up in the present day : 7/10
Other factors : 10/10

Total Score : 37/40

The numbers speak for themselves. A nearly flawless game in a champs final, earning perfect scores in performance and setting. Furthermore, this game put Gambit in the Lead in the most important time, and should've broken Acend's confidence, earning it a full score in other factors. The only flaw is that it has not stood well to the test of time. Like it or not, this is archaic valorant, and a level of play that, even though was the highest possible back in 2021, would be considered very low today, so points must be docked for that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1 Less Split vs PRX

2.33 Rating, 424 ACS, 24/7, +17

The Performance Itself : 9.5/10
The Setting : 9/10
How it holds up in the present day : 9.5/10
Other factors : 10/10

Total Score : 38/40

Despite not being as iconic, this relatively unknown performance is almost certainly the most dominant of all time.

Performance-Wise, it is essentially neck and neck with Nats' 26/3 (and the Rating stat hates deaths), with a notably higher ACS. If it's not a 10, its about as close as it could be.

Setting-Wise, it was done at Champs Playoffs, in upper Semis vs a Finalist. There's really not much further than that, a 9 is well deserved

It holds up incredibly well, in fact, many of the comps and macro ideas played today are identical to what teams were using back then. If the skye nerf was reverted, the meta today would be almost exactly what it was when this game was played.

But what truly sets this performance apart? Remember the Cryo performance at #4? The spectacular part of that, that earned him high credit in the final category, was that he did it on Brimstone, a role that it is notoriously hard to frag on. Brim however, is a meta agent on Bind. What makes Less's performance truly exceptional is that he did it on not just a Senti, but KJ. An agent that is not even meta on Split. Cypher is notably better both on that map specifically and in terms of general fragging. In fact, some other teams even played Chamber if they were not playing Cypher. The only other team at Champs to play KJ on Split was DRX, with RB averaging a ~ 0.70 Rating on her across 3 games. Make no mistake, Less's performance in this match is the equivalent of having a mythical performance while playing Harbor on Ascent instead of Omen.

posted 2 months ago

Lmk some more (tier 1 only)

Gonna make another thread ranking them, maybe make a top 5 ranking.

so far i can think of:

Nats Fracture vs Acend
Tenz Breeze vs F4Q
Less Split vs PRX
Aspas Lotus vs SEN
Cryo Ascent vs Loud
Cryo Bind vs Fut
Aspas Icebox vs C9
QCK Sunset vs EDG
Woot Sunset and Bind vs Navi (lmfao had to include both)

posted 2 months ago

Spectator mode speedrun : peek an angle Less is holding

'I actually agree, if he brings this round back he's the GOAT'

posted 2 months ago
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