saadhak staying makes LOUD ONÜR very very possible
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2021 top coaches were enghh and rawkus KEKW
LEV 22 was a crazy team, but mainly because the regional qual were easy and then u just go in to a tournement format
onur is pretty good at tournement format where he can just cook a bunch of pre set strats and run them, and hopefully you haven't showed too much when u are deep. looking back at this, this is why LEV always failed after few games they looked insane in... they were easy to anti strat back then too but it wasn't as apparent as in the league format. the league format this year hurt him a lot and exposed that part...
also, just like normal fundamental stuff like saving when they shouldn't, they had the same problem from lockin to LCQ, this just looks really really bad.
Not trying to imply anything as well. I'm genuinely curious. It will take me some time to watch all siggly's vods. Maybe he had in mind specifics scenarios because he mentioned it.
It also could be the case that I see something different than Siggly. What could be a mistake for someone, could be right for others.
I remembered some scenarios where we played the round way too passive and then we saved. That doesn't mean that saving wasn't the best choice. The base error was playing too passive.
There are some teams that always like to go for hero plays when they are at numerical disadvantage. Yes, you can boost the morale of the team if you success and change the momentum of the game.
I don't think that way. I use a concept called expected value to decide. Bassically you have to decide which action is going to pay you more in the long term.
For example: You are 4v5. The opponent has all the utility. The bomb is already ticking. You lost all the angles in the bomb site. Probably saving has a better EV+ than playing retake in the long run. Many teams and players already do this intuitively to some degree.
oh god, i'd love to. mainly because I was wondering why that shit wasn't fixed within like a week.
I don't have specifics scenarios in mind that I can think of, but I'm gonna find some to make a point. It was just the theme of saving 2-4 guns early into the game, when enemies have full shields, util and guns and not going for damaging the economy... what end up happening a lot of the time is that enemies end up building a bank that is gonna take you a lot of time to break, and I was malding when that shit wasn't fixed in LCQ when it seems like such a basic fix? the problem wasn't even the saving necessarily, it was not going for exits or at least tryna take some shields or util off. I can give about 12 maps all across from league split into LCQ that you lost to the exact same problem which to me... seems weird? KRU had the exact same problem in lockin and they fixed it right after that.
lets take Lev v C9 americas playoffs ascent (https://youtu.be/406wdDC6mBM?si=bebRUL690G2ApnLt&t=644) for example, you guys saved in a 3v4 in round 5, giving c9 3000 credits on top of shields and guns they already owned, the very next round, nzr didn't went for any eco damaging and by then the money is outside of control, might as well turn cheats on and put unlimited money and it seems to happen in every LEV game where you guys don't get the initial momentum.
another example would be saving in 4v5 in LEV v FURIA Pearl Americas League (https://youtu.be/4Ewg0NR5coc?si=vuybFIxohnKEgymr&t=631) , granted this is pearl b retake but u can see how the money building from there, and then by round 7 it's impossible to break. another one of not doing enough damage and letting eco outside of control would be here in this game vs c9 in americas league (https://youtu.be/xBFEYNpCciQ?si=D2Fgfu1axkOVrcrj&t=283)
another one, Loud v Lev Map 2 Ascent Americas League (https://youtu.be/s9Uk9OOZjHM?si=3bKj3dcbtlOvywIC&t=659), money goes outside of control after this one... and listen, I couldve found better examples if I had more time to go to the vod dungeon or better memory of it, but those are just few examples of fundamental error that LEV had the entire season.
the EV for saving isn't worth it if the enemy is gonna have a full buy every single round after that, and yeah.... some teams were doing it on some rounds. but none of them were as passive and frequent as LEV were, add that, the refusal to anti strat/change things up, taco's confidence issues, and how sad and depressed some of your players looked during the szn.. it does seem like a coaching issue, at least for the outside view even if some of those things (like kinggg being sad about being away from home), it totally outside of your control.
and listen, I personally think that you are a great coach for building fundamentals into a team (as u did for KRU & LEV), your protocols are very good and seeing how 22 LEV grouped up in every single man advantages made me become a fan and support the team and thats coming from a prx go brrrrrrrrr fan, but I also think that your vision for the game doesn't allign with how the top teams are winning right now. take the top 4 champs teams rn (PRX, EG, LOUD, FNC). what do they all have in common? a coach that is really really good at anti strating and adapting on the fly. thats why optic reached top 4 in basically almost every event. ill try to give my thoughts and hopefully give you at least a different perspective incase you gonna go to a team i like.
"Anti-strating is only useful if the enemy team is repeating some patterns during a certain period of time. So you will need:"
brother, you ran the same ascent pistol round from copenhagen to americas league. take the SEN game for example, they had a kayo knife ready, kj setup and a jett ready for your A haven split. because u did the same thing for 6-9 months without changing a single thing.
"1) Volume (Because you can't adapt based on 1 or 2 maps)"
i mean yeah, but it doesn't mean there isnt value to be gained from watching your enemy play and having a gameplan around that.
"2) Time (Because you can't adapt based on maps played 1 or 2 months ago)"
agreed, nobody goes into LCQ thinking he can watch a vod from 1-2 months ago and you gonna play the same, obviously u gonna have shit cooked up. but this is just not true in a league split, your opponents have time, and volume and you cant change much in a week to week basis. nobody would be that rough on you if we saw LEV change up some protocols, util timings, ANYTHING, really. you guys just focused on your own stuff without looking what the enemy does while being very predictable.
" id say like 5% of ANY teams rounds are hard-readable and counterable (in my opinion) and most of the time its easier to play your own game"
i think it depends on your definition of anti strat, is it when c0m throws a gekko molly into a zellsis ulting phoenix body because he saw his ulting spot in a vod and preped for it? punishing a speific viper smoke throw on split with a set play? maybe if you think about it that way. but what if you are playing vs FUT on pearl, and they run their fraudulent team comp of solo kayo and a brim, and you info strave them properly, and say u get 10 rounds on attack just by having them re clear areas and you punishing that, since their only info is a kayo knife. do u count all 10 rounds as a anti strat? if so, its probably more than that. I think when people talk about anti strat they talk about the overall game plan and abusing the weak areas in team comps/speific set ups. also leaf is a player that watched a shit ton of vods before a match.
I think people main problem with LEV was not that you guys played your own game, is the fact that you haven't changed much up. lets take PRX pearl on champs for example, first game they were running their set strats on defense, second game they were faking it and mixing it up, third game they had new molly spots and they were faking using a kj turret as contact for phoenix + skye. they knew the enemy watched their vods, and they just changed very little stuff to throw them off. that's what people were so fruastrated when LEV didn't had that deep strategery to them, and just seem to do the same protocols/set exec non stop. another example (my fav) is when LOUD goes triple smokes on bind in order to counter navi slow default contact style of playing the map. and IT WORKED PERFECTLY.
I truly wish you success with LOUD/KOI or whatever team you go into, and hope you can reflect on some stuff that happened during this season. before this year, many put you as the best coach itw for your time with LEV/KRU and now you are basically in everyone's fruadwatch for this year. next year is probably gonna look better just by not having to play such a long league format that seemed to not fit you very well. I'll stop being such a hater and let your future results speak for themself, good luck.
https://youtu.be/406wdDC6mBM?si=bebRUL690G2ApnLt&t=644 - LEV vs C9
It's a 3v4 situation where the bomb is already planted. They had Skye's and Viper's ultimates. We lost all the angles inside and outside the bombsite and have no smoke to block garage. Also Viper's Smoke is blocking Kingg's angles. Saving is clearly a better option than attemp to Retake. Now you are making another question: "Why we didn't punish C9's exit to damage their economy?". I think usually when you already decided to save it is a good practice to punish their exits if you already gained the positions. It is not always the correct play. Let's say we try to punish C9's exits this round and we kill 3 players but we lost 3 weapons. Will be worth it? I dont think so. C9's will buy next round Rifles + Light shield next round anyway and we will be in half buy or eco. So we will probably will lose next round (6th) and C9's economy will be in a good place in the 7h round. Instead we saved 3 weapons and played full buy the next one.
In my opinion you are focusing too much in a situation where we are already in disadvantage and bassically the round was done. I prefer, as a coach, to focus on the base error that put us in that situation in the first place.
For example, I think Taco could have played this round more aggressive. He could have waited until Viper's wall went down and then activated dash and looked for kill or information. Also considering that Skye's is not as good as Sova to take mid control.
In addition, Shyy was not taking Garage's information properly. He lost the timing and C9's broke his turrent for free. It wasn't the end of the world but we should have blocked with Omen's smoke B's choke and make a rotation towards B site.
These mistakes were way more impactful in the outcome of the game than the way we played the 3v4 situation and you can blame me because macrogame and fundamentals is what I usually do best for my teams.
Like I said before you are entitled to have an opinion but you made a lot of assumptions and jumped directly into conclussions so I'm not going to respond all the sutff for obvious reasons but I'm always down for talking about the game.
https://youtu.be/4Ewg0NR5coc?si=7vOugsfjXRAdVfpY&t=539 - Furia vs LEV
FURIA's economy is already built because we lost the bonus. They had Full buy + Heavy shield + 3000+ credits each player on average. If you think that Valorant's economy has a snowball problem I totally agree but i'm not the responsable.
Overall this round is well played by us until Mazino's death. If he could have gathered the information without being killed I think that the odds of winning that round were in our favor.
At the time that Mazino died, Taco found a good timing in a 4v5 situation but he couldn't connect.
The round still was not lose but we were at disadvantage. We usually have another timing to play that is when the opponent is planting the bomb. Nzr could have ulted and flash from the window but I think that Breach would have used his ultimate anyway. Also Kingg's is 30 of hp.
Again let's suppose we tried to punish exits and killed 3 rivals but lost 3 weapons in the exchange. Do you think that is a EV+ play? Beucase I'm pretty sure it is not. FURIA's players should be looking for us to get our weapons.
https://youtu.be/s9Uk9OOZjHM?si=fs8dDRDWKZDoezq1&t=620 - LEV vs Loud
Are you serious about this one? Because to me is not even close. LOUD's players had Full buy + Heavy shields + 6.000+ credits on average. Their economy is already built. They will probably have rifles until the end of the half even if they lose all rounds.
So you are telling me that we should go to punish exits in a 3v5 where LOUD's economy is almost perfect? Because there is no way that could be a EV+ decision.
We lost that round because we were waiting an Exec A with Killjoy's ultimate and they ended doing a Split so the positions we took to defend the site were subtioptimals. Again, how we read the situation was the mistake. Blame me if you want but do it for the right reasons.
ONUR from an outside perspective to me sounds more like he should be main coach but not strategic coach. I think his mindset on helping teams set up healthy lifestyles and have strong bonds and connections as well as being a great figurehead for a team is fantastic. He is passionate and I think he's a fantastic asset to any team, I would want someone to keep all players on track and healthy and in a good schedule and mindset always. However, strategically I think he needs help from a great tactician.
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