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duelist issue and my ideas to fix it

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#1
kyro1

duelists have always been problematic for the games design our first look into how flawed the role is was phoenix getting power creeped by an agent who isnt even in his class. they got themselves into a spot where a sub class was competing with an entirely different role which is really hard to address when one is fundamentally more useful then the other. with raze and jett both are overpowered and have been for the entire games lifespan and because of just how overpowered they were/are it took riot a long time to nerf them because each stayed in the meta for a very long time so we didnt get to see the other thrive bc pros valued jett at its best higher then raze. the core issue here is that half the duelist roster doesn't actually compete with the overpowered duelists this is what i would do to fix it.

Raze: Imo raze satchel is still too multiuse so by limiting the other uses for it the fun factor will still be there but its still a big nerf and the rocket has a little too much impact compared to other duelist ults

  • Blast Pack no longer moves enemies
  • Showstopper is 9 cost

Neon: shes already decent but where as other duelists with abilities similar have counter play to sentinel set ups she has none and some of her kit leaves a bit to be desired

  • Neon can slide through trips to break them
  • Neons stun now instantly starts to wind up upon impact instead of waiting for the second bounce
  • Neons wall now does damage to enemies if they touch it (just bring back the old damage tick)

Yoru: he sits in a niche between phoenix and jett he can in some scenarios fill the role of a primary duelist but in most cases is a secondary duelist. I've noticed to counter yoru teams will just wait out his tp at the start of the round and for an agent like yoru you shouldn't be able to wait out his viability imo.

  • Remove gatecrash timer

Iso: this agent makes no sense to me as to why it was added it doesnt fit either duelist sub class and sits in a niche between reyna and a controller. i think this agents design is shit but without reworking this is the only way i see it being balanced and maybe viable.

  • Double Tap now activates a shield immediately on wind up
  • Wall increased in size and can now be stopped like a harbor wall
  • Wall now has two charges
  • Iso can no longer die in his ult he instead respawns at the point he casted it
  • Double Tap additional charge Costs 100 Credits
  • Iso Wall Costs 150 Credits Per Charge

Phoenix: Hes basically a flash initiator without the info so you have to make every ability as impactful as possible to make him able to compete.

  • Phoenix Molly is now as big as gekkos
  • Phoenix Molly Regenerates After A Single Kill
  • Phoenix Wall Now can be casted through Walls
  • Phoenix Molly and Wall can each heal himself to full hp

Reyna: Imo has no way to be balanced without a rework she has an issue only she has that being she punishes sloppy trades in ranked which makes her insane in ranked but has zero team utility so she cant be used effectively in coordinated play.

  • Leer Now is Unbreakable
  • Leer Has 1 Charge
  • Upon a kill you will activate the ability to dismiss and it can be used at any time throughout a round
  • Dismiss Only Has 1 Charge
  • Devour Rework works like a breach c deploy it on a angle has a wind up once it pops it begins sucking the life out of anyone in its radius it ticks for 20 hp with a max of 6 ticks with each tick on a enemy reyna gains 20 hp it can over heal
  • Devour Has 1 Charge and Costs 300 credits
  • Reyna Ult Works the same you get a dismiss on each kill and over heal after each kill. if you get a kill in ult and dont dismiss and your ult runs out you will still have the ability to be able to dismiss

lmk what you think about my ideas especially reyna im sure somebody has better ideas then me just thought id give my ideas for a patch to fix this issue.

#2
Psion
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might just be me, feels like a lot of these changes would either do nothing or would break the agent

#3
kyro1
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Psion [#2]

might just be me, feels like a lot of these changes would either do nothing or would break the agent

whats an example of a change breaking the agent?

#4
terribletyranny
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some of these are very well thought out, good shit

#5
number1_MIBR_hater
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phoenix: increase the ult cost, while on his ult he recharges all his abilities instantly, and he comes back from ult with his abilities he still had before ulting (ie. phoenix ults with 1 flash and wall on his inventory, he has now 2 flashes, 1 molly and wall until the end of ult where he can spent them, after the ult fades he still gets his 1 flash and wall back)

#6
Zerphyr1
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iso is now the most broken agent ever

#7
kyro1
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number1_MIBR_hater [#5]

phoenix: increase the ult cost, while on his ult he recharges all his abilities instantly, and he comes back from ult with his abilities he still had before ulting (ie. phoenix ults with 1 flash and wall on his inventory, he has now 2 flashes, 1 molly and wall until the end of ult where he can spent them, after the ult fades he still gets his 1 flash and wall back)

thats a good change would defiantly make him a lot better just thinking about if that would lead to too many abilities in one round since riot wants to keep the game far from overwatch level

#8
itisnoah54
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i think lots of these are viable, except the raze ulti cost. 8 is fine for now imo.

#9
kyro1
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Zerphyr1 [#6]

iso is now the most broken agent ever

i mean i think hed be good but the shield still has a wind up its not instant and the wall is just a slightly smaller harbor wall thats bullet proof. the ult sucks right now this the only change i could think of that would make it good.

#10
saebr
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iso changes are crazy. usually people opt for a few of those but you have all of them there wow
reyna changes are also insane. unbreakable blind..!?

#11
kyro1
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itisnoah54 [#8]

i think lots of these are viable, except the raze ulti cost. 8 is fine for now imo.

i always see a raze farming the ult so fast in pro play so thats the reason i think it should be 9 cost and it has a site wide impact like a kj ult or breach ult it forces you to play retake unless you kill the raze super early

#12
Psion
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kyro1 [#3]

whats an example of a change breaking the agent?

i zoned out, by break i meant make OP, not make unusable

#13
kyro1
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saebr [#10]

iso changes are crazy. usually people opt for a few of those but you have all of them there wow
reyna changes are also insane. unbreakable blind..!?

my idea with reyna was to make her have a small amount of utility but to make it as impactful as possible so the blind is as impactful as a omen blind and the devour is as impactful as a breach c and iso is so shit right now so i think every ability has to be able to compete with initiators and the other secondary duelists and even with all of that i dont think hed be broken but hed be strong fs

#14
kyro1
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Psion [#12]

i zoned out, by break i meant make OP, not make unusable

which character do you think would be op?

#15
TheLoque
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Raze

  • Blast Pack works by having knockback effect on movable entities, so the double satcheling is basically the blast pack knockbacking Raze forward. So removing the knockback effect makes blast pack useless. I would decrease damage dealt by blast pack
  • agreed on 9 point ult, other idea is increase wind up or small QoL change to include red indicator when you stand in the rocket path upon firing

Neon

  • sliding to break trips is just jett dash pre-3.0 patch and there's a reason riot removed that
  • agreed on first stun to wind up upon hit before second stun hit
  • agreed on wall having damage back, but to everyone except neon (make it like phoenix wall)

Yoru

  • ability to throw both tp at once but if so, can only tp to one of them and the other be destroyed (so no double tp shenanigans)
  • yoru clone can imitate living teammates as well ("choosing teammates" control might be wonky)
#16
Psion
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kyro1 [#14]

which character do you think would be op?

besides raze, iso and yoru, there is a chance these changes could break every agent

phoenix- could lead to VERY util heavy comps that focus on getting phoenix kills and recharging his molly over and over, could make the game unplayable(unfun) and boring to watch
neon- we already saw what happens when an agent can dash/slide to break trips. it kills cypher, and has the potential to make neon broken
reyna- leer being unbreakable and the pocket dismiss just existing could break her

#17
kyro1
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TheLoque [#15]

Raze

  • Blast Pack works by having knockback effect on movable entities, so the double satcheling is basically the blast pack knockbacking Raze forward. So removing the knockback effect makes blast pack useless. I would decrease damage dealt by blast pack
  • agreed on 9 point ult, other idea is increase wind up or small QoL change to include red indicator when you stand in the rocket path upon firing

Neon

  • sliding to break trips is just jett dash pre-3.0 patch and there's a reason riot removed that
  • agreed on first stun to wind up upon hit before second stun hit
  • agreed on wall having damage back, but to everyone except neon (make it like phoenix wall)

Yoru

  • ability to throw both tp at once but if so, can only tp to one of them and the other be destroyed (so no double tp shenanigans)
  • yoru clone can imitate living teammates as well ("choosing teammates" control might be wonky)

imo raze would still be the best entry by far with those changes how often do you see a raze throw a satchel to do damage? i think they could entirely remove the damage and it wouldnt effect her whatever the change it has to be the satchels and it has to drastically limit the multiuse of the ability

i totally understand why they removed it for jett but jett and raze both have counter play to trips in other ways by either satcheling over or updrafting over the trip or raze can nade the trip. neon has zero way to deal with it and to make her more in line with them i think thats the best way to do it and cypher now is better then he was then now the trips reset so it wouldn't break it entirely

yoru tp idea is really good but the clone idk that seems like a nightmare to control/use well

#18
kyro1
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Psion [#16]

besides raze, iso and yoru, there is a chance these changes could break every agent

phoenix- could lead to VERY util heavy comps that focus on getting phoenix kills and recharging his molly over and over, could make the game unplayable(unfun) and boring to watch
neon- we already saw what happens when an agent can dash/slide to break trips. it kills cypher, and has the potential to make neon broken
reyna- leer being unbreakable and the pocket dismiss just existing could break her

with phoenix i could see that it might be too strong to get it back with 1 kill that might be an overcook

jett and raze have counter play to cypher trips but neon doesnt i think its the only way to make her in line with the other duelists that take her role and it wouldnt fully destroy the trip it would still reset after the slide and you cant slide after your already in the trip

reyna leer would still have counter play and would be no better then a omen blind. and the pocket dismiss i think would be good but you still need a kill which is the entire reason she doesnt get picked in pro play its like a jett dash but you need a kill to activate it i dont see how thats op.

#19
Psion
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kyro1 [#18]

with phoenix i could see that it might be too strong to get it back with 1 kill that might be an overcook

jett and raze have counter play to cypher trips but neon doesnt i think its the only way to make her in line with the other duelists that take her role and it wouldnt fully destroy the trip it would still reset after the slide and you cant slide after your already in the trip

reyna leer would still have counter play and would be no better then a omen blind. and the pocket dismiss i think would be good but you still need a kill which is the entire reason she doesnt get picked in pro play its like a jett dash but you need a kill to activate it i dont see how thats op.

"Neon can slide through trips to break them" break = fully destroy so idk whats up there
reyna leer would be much more versatile than omen blind, not needing any setup, having infinite range. it would be at worst equal to omen blind and at best much better, the dismiss in itself wouldn't break her but the combination of an unbreakable nearsight with it would

#20
kyro1
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Psion [#19]

"Neon can slide through trips to break them" break = fully destroy so idk whats up there
reyna leer would be much more versatile than omen blind, not needing any setup, having infinite range. it would be at worst equal to omen blind and at best much better, the dismiss in itself wouldn't break her but the combination of an unbreakable nearsight with it would

yeah thats mb i meant like break as in she could slide through not break as in fully destroy.

i agree the leer would be no worse then omen flash and on some open sites it would be better but i can also see scenarios where omen blind would be better bc you can cast through deeper walls even so this would counter the omen problem being that hes the best dome smoker by a mile. also if you can destroy the blind the alternative is that its shit. and i can see how the combo like your fighting a reyna who already got a kill she dismisses and then throws her blind would feel hard to play against but that is almost all her utility for the round and its only in the scenario she got a kill prior to fighting you.

#21
kyro1
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terribletyranny [#4]

some of these are very well thought out, good shit

thanks

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