Does anyone know anything?

People keep saying GC players will never be good enough for tier 1
but genuinely tho do ya'll really know anything?
The community loves making assumptions about everything but there is no way to know for sure unless it really happens?
Unless you truly know how a team environment works and truly know how it looks behind the scene or you are a pro player
there is no way to know GC players arent good enough to compete in Tier 1.
As we have found out over and over that what really matters is good coaching that can curate talent into superstars.

#ilikewomen

There are definitely GC players good enough for T1. People struggle to remember that this is a team game.

Conut [#2]

There are definitely GC players good enough for T1. People struggle to remember that this is a team game.

exactly
they are forgetting that what really matters which is good coaching and leadership
that is the only thing GC teams are lacking in
and since tier 1 teams have really good structures for coaching and leadership that is why they would do much better in Tier 1 rather than GC

what is this logic.. i could also say u never know if i would make it into a T1 team and use it as an excuse to get a trial.. these spots are earned not handed .. most of the GC teams cant beat T3 teams.. so how is anyone in GC getting even a trial before the hoards of T2 and T3 pros even justifiable?

conir probably can

the fans go off the stats, and the stats aren't good

ofc stats don't mean everything but they are a solid estimate

EWW_EU_EWHO [#4]

what is this logic.. i could also say u never know if i would make it into a T1 team and use it as an excuse to get a trial.. these spots are earned not handed .. most of the GC teams cant beat T3 teams.. so how is anyone in GC getting even a trial before the hoards of T2 and T3 pros even justifiable?

c9

EWW_EU_EWHO [#4]

what is this logic.. i could also say u never know if i would make it into a T1 team and use it as an excuse to get a trial.. these spots are earned not handed .. most of the GC teams cant beat T3 teams.. so how is anyone in GC getting even a trial before the hoards of T2 and T3 pros even justifiable?

no one is handing them?
gc teams cant win against them cause of the lack of leadership and coaching/structure
Im not saying whole gc teams to move over to tier 1 i am just talking about certain players who would do much better in a better structured team
also why would you get a trial for a team when you dont have any results to show for it?
tier 1 teams would only trial gc players that they think have potential or talent from the results they have already achieved.
they wouldnt just trial some random silver on vlr forum 💀

brobeans [#6]

the fans go off the stats, and the stats aren't good

ofc stats don't mean everything but they are a solid estimate

mCe didn't pick up jake and runi bc of stats

CoCloudy [#3]

exactly
they are forgetting that what really matters which is good coaching and leadership
that is the only thing GC teams are lacking in
and since tier 1 teams have really good structures for coaching and leadership that is why they would do much better in Tier 1 rather than GC

Not hating or anything, but what leadership, coaching or structure does this team (Team 4D) have? https://www.vlr.gg/167317/version1-vs-team-4d-challengers-league-north-america-ro64/?game=113031

CoCloudy [#8]

no one is handing them?
gc teams cant win against them cause of the lack of leadership and coaching/structure
Im not saying whole gc teams to move over to tier 1 i am just talking about certain players who would do much better in a better structured team
also why would you get a trial for a team when you dont have any results to show for it?
tier 1 teams would only trial gc players that they think have potential or talent from the results they have already achieved.
they wouldnt just trial some random silver on vlr forum 💀

Teams like V1 and ex-C9W have more structure, coaching and even better salaries than the male T3/Collegiate/pug/FA teams which they LOSE to. Like this one - https://www.vlr.gg/268896/version1-vs-ambrosia-knights-monthly-gauntlet-2023-august-ro32/?game=139454&tab=overview

braindead to allow anyone on V1 to be trialed before those guys for any franchised team.. pathetic to see people pushing for a diversity agenda to water down merit based selections

CoCloudy [#3]

exactly
they are forgetting that what really matters which is good coaching and leadership
that is the only thing GC teams are lacking in
and since tier 1 teams have really good structures for coaching and leadership that is why they would do much better in Tier 1 rather than GC

Completely agree. GC teams struggle because there aren't many good leaders and coaches. V1 for example has really good leadership with Mel and effys which is why they are one of the strongest teams in GC. I could see one of their players getting picked up for T1 or T2 in the future

if i speak...

Roid [#10]

Not hating or anything, but what leadership, coaching or structure does this team (Team 4D) have? https://www.vlr.gg/167317/version1-vs-team-4d-challengers-league-north-america-ro64/?game=113031

for one its literally 5 girls v 5 boys
whole gc rosters would never even make it close to tier 3
but mixed rosters could go a long way
your trying to argue a point im not even making

I know that I know nothing which means I know Something and he is a very good player

CoCloudy [#14]

for one its literally 5 girls v 5 boys
whole gc rosters would never even make it close to tier 3
but mixed rosters could go a long way
your trying to argue a point im not even making

So you're saying boys are better than girls at valorant? And if you put a random immortal on EG or FNC they'll still win against DFM so what's your point? Or are you saying we should just sideline the better T2 male players?

KyLZi [#15]

I know that I know nothing which means I know Something and he is a very good player

forgot botssi?

EWW_EU_EWHO [#11]

Teams like V1 and ex-C9W have more structure, coaching and even better salaries than the male T3/Collegiate/pug/FA teams which they LOSE to. Like this one - https://www.vlr.gg/268896/version1-vs-ambrosia-knights-monthly-gauntlet-2023-august-ro32/?game=139454&tab=overview

braindead to allow anyone on V1 to be trialed before those guys for any franchised team.. pathetic to see people pushing for a diversity agenda to water down merit based selections

That is a whole GC roster??
5 females in one team?
I never wanted 5 females in one team?
A mixed roster would go so much farther than a full gc roster
again your trying to argue a point im not making?

Roid [#16]

So you're saying boys are better than girls at valorant? And if you put a random immortal on EG or FNC they'll still win against DFM so what's your point? Or are you saying we should just sideline the better T2 male players?

agenda is to push diversity narrative and handicap really good players who happen to be in the majority due to gender

Roid [#16]

So you're saying boys are better than girls at valorant? And if you put a random immortal on EG or FNC they'll still win against DFM so what's your point? Or are you saying we should just sideline the better T2 male players?

1. Never said they are better statically because of the ratio of women and men in val, men have a much higher playerbase therefore have to have more curated players in the scene.
2. What point are you even trying to make with the random immortal on eg win against dfm??
   3. never said to sideline tier 2 players all im saying is that just like in tier 2 and tier 3 there are players in gc that would be able to perfom a lot better in better teams

shrubonfire [#17]

forgot botssi?

I wish, Botssi 🗿

CoCloudy [#18]

That is a whole GC roster??
5 females in one team?
I never wanted 5 females in one team?
A mixed roster would go so much farther than a full gc roster
again your trying to argue a point im not making?

so want a male roster to take a walking ult orb on their team for the sake of ''diversity''?

tsmsobadholy [#22]

so want a male roster to take a walking ult orb on their team for the sake of ''diversity''?

where is this diversity point coming from when I havent said the word a single time?
also you really calling all gc players a walking ult orb?

CoCloudy [#18]

That is a whole GC roster??
5 females in one team?
I never wanted 5 females in one team?
A mixed roster would go so much farther than a full gc roster
again your trying to argue a point im not making?

so you are saying 5 female players cannot defeat T4 level no salary- FA teams of men? thats sexist AF.. so u need men to support them for something they cannot achieve on their own?
also how does this make a case for mixed teams, why should anyone in GC get a spot before those FA teams?
there is no evidence of gender diversity making esport teams stronger so it will just destroy the dreams of male esport talents as teams push for diversity just for the sake of it

CoCloudy [#23]

where is this diversity point coming from when I havent said the word a single time?
also you really calling all gc players a walking ult orb?

yes 99% of GC players would be walking ult orbs in T1

EWW_EU_EWHO [#24]

so you are saying 5 female players cannot defeat T4 level no salary- FA teams of men? thats sexist AF.. so u need men to support them for something they cannot achieve on their own?
also how does this make a case for mixed teams, why should anyone in GC get a spot before those FA teams?
there is no evidence of gender diversity making esport teams stronger so it will just destroy the dreams of male esport talents as teams push for diversity just for the sake of it

1. I need better structured teams to support them so they can go further
2. Never said gc teams should get a spot before those FA teams all im trying to say is that GC should be of the same title that tier 2 and tier 3 is held at. Which is a place to spot talent and pick them up.
3. not a single team is pushing for diversity im just informing that they should be held as same title as tier 2 and tier 3

tsmsobadholy [#25]

yes 99% of GC players would be walking ult orbs in T1

and diversity must be your goal if ur trying to force dogshit GC players into tier 1 over the likes of talented tier 2 players that would do a much better job.

tsmsobadholy [#25]

yes 99% of GC players would be walking ult orbs in T1

its actually sad to see people like you exist

CoCloudy [#28]

its actually sad to see people like you exist

in your opinion what GC players deserve to play in tier 1 over current tier 1 players and up and coming tier 2 players?

tsmsobadholy [#27]

and diversity must be your goal if ur trying to force dogshit GC players into tier 1 over the likes of talented tier 2 players that would do a much better job.

when did I say i want to force them in??
I just want them to be held of the same title which tier 2 and tier 3 is held at which is a place to pick up talent.

CoCloudy [#18]

That is a whole GC roster??
5 females in one team?
I never wanted 5 females in one team?
A mixed roster would go so much farther than a full gc roster
again your trying to argue a point im not making?

The point everyone posting match results is trying to make, is the current GC players outside of probably fluorescent are a few others, are nothing special.

Also why does it matter if they're a 5 female team? They lost to better players in matches, so why would a team look at a losing team for players opposed to teams who won? Why would a t1 or t2 team look at V1, over a team like YFP or Turtle Troop to get players?

Despite V1 being a good team with talented players. There are better players in every role, in t2/3 NA. It's the sad truth. Fluorescent has the highest chances of going to a co-ed team, along with mel as experienced IGLs are always slim. However in the grand scheme of t1/2/3 of val, the v1 team is just another 5 players who are talented, but not the best.

tsmsobadholy [#29]

in your opinion what GC players deserve to play in tier 1 over current tier 1 players and up and coming tier 2 players?

v1 sarah
her decision making is of the same as a tier 1 pro

CoCloudy [#26]

1. I need better structured teams to support them so they can go further
2. Never said gc teams should get a spot before those FA teams all im trying to say is that GC should be of the same title that tier 2 and tier 3 is held at. Which is a place to spot talent and pick them up.
3. not a single team is pushing for diversity im just informing that they should be held as same title as tier 2 and tier 3

1. Literally pointed out that GC teams like V1 have better structure and salaries than what some of the T3/T2 male players get even if they beat those GC teams on a regular basis. Where is the sympathy for those guys? GC players stealing salaries just because they are of a minority gender and now they want a seat at the franchised level without proving themselves against the hoards waiting for a chance.

2.&3 It literally is? GC is allowed to fight for a spot in Ascension through open qualifiers and no wonder they lose? People are free to make mixed teams aswell and fight for an ascension spot? Nobody is owed a free lunch

CoCloudy [#9]

mCe didn't pick up jake and runi bc of stats

true, that's why i said stats don't mean everything.

but both did have better stats than the GC players

CoCloudy [#20]

1. Never said they are better statically because of the ratio of women and men in val, men have a much higher playerbase therefore have to have more curated players in the scene.
2. What point are you even trying to make with the random immortal on eg win against dfm??
   3. never said to sideline tier 2 players all im saying is that just like in tier 2 and tier 3 there are players in gc that would be able to perfom a lot better in better teams

Okay, I hear you, let's leave the vague discussion. As an org currently in franchise, mention a GC player they should pick up (which there isn't any better player in that role in T1/T2) and why they should pick them up. Would love to see what you've got.

CoCloudy [#32]

v1 sarah
her decision making is of the same as a tier 1 pro

decision making against Ascendant level players is not the same as trying to outsmart the likes of saadhak and FNS.. and no - she is will not just magically get a chance before the likes of runi and even TrickAim. If she does it would be a pathetic case of increasing diversity and ignoring merit

Dude, those gc players barely hit 130adr and 0,9kd on ascendants and immortals, ofc they are bad even for t3

The people on this thread making 5 GC player teams vs 5 male challengers player team comparisons are actually so stupid and missing your point

Conut [#12]

Completely agree. GC teams struggle because there aren't many good leaders and coaches. V1 for example has really good leadership with Mel and effys which is why they are one of the strongest teams in GC. I could see one of their players getting picked up for T1 or T2 in the future

V1 gets rolled by t3 randoms even with a former t1 player and the best igl in gc. GC type leagues are new so naturally it will take several years for the skill levels to become close to equal.

Z1ratul [#37]

Dude, those gc players barely hit 130adr and 0,9kd on ascendants and immortals, ofc they are bad even for t3

Thats a vast generalization. There's gc players among the top 20 radiants you know

brobeans [#34]

true, that's why i said stats don't mean everything.

but both did have better stats than the GC players

No, florescent and Mary's stats were better

Hence why the stats don't mean anything at all; there's no argument to be made that jakee and runi were picked up because they had better stats (which they don't) than GC players. They were picked up for visible talent shown in their gameplay

Raevus [#31]

The point everyone posting match results is trying to make, is the current GC players outside of probably fluorescent are a few others, are nothing special.

Also why does it matter if they're a 5 female team? They lost to better players in matches, so why would a team look at a losing team for players opposed to teams who won? Why would a t1 or t2 team look at V1, over a team like YFP or Turtle Troop to get players?

Despite V1 being a good team with talented players. There are better players in every role, in t2/3 NA. It's the sad truth. Fluorescent has the highest chances of going to a co-ed team, along with mel as experienced IGLs are always slim. However in the grand scheme of t1/2/3 of val, the v1 team is just another 5 players who are talented, but not the best.

think of gc as an underdeveloped region.
and tier 2 and tier 3 as more developed region comparatively.

Lets take the Turkish scene as an analogy.
the region had so much talent but such few successful leadership
Emea teams like fnatic picked up insane talent like alfa
fnatic improved immensely.

With this analogy could tier 2/3 and gc not be held at the title of "a group of talent waiting to be picked up" ?
not saying gc players should be prioritised but should be looked at the same way franchised team looks at tier 2 and 3

CoCloudy [#32]

v1 sarah
her decision making is of the same as a tier 1 pro

I doubt she could get into to NA t1 maybe she could get I tryout for Team Heretics or DFM

tsmsobadholy [#43]

I doubt she could get into to NA t1 maybe she could get I tryout for Team Heretics or DFM

but they probably have better options so maybe not even that lol

Roid [#16]

So you're saying boys are better than girls at valorant? And if you put a random immortal on EG or FNC they'll still win against DFM so what's your point? Or are you saying we should just sideline the better T2 male players?

By your logic all Nigerians are equally bad at valorant because a 5-player Nigerian roster would not be able to beat a 5-player Egyptian roster, even if 1-2 players within the Nigerian team were better than any of the Egyptian players individually

Nachtel [#40]

Thats a vast generalization. There's gc players among the top 20 radiants you know

just because you get high radiant doesn't mean you can go pro lol its a completely different game
especially tier 1

Nachtel [#38]

The people on this thread making 5 GC player teams vs 5 male challengers player team comparisons are actually so stupid and missing your point

even the best GC players are walking ult orbs in tier 1

EWW_EU_EWHO [#33]

1. Literally pointed out that GC teams like V1 have better structure and salaries than what some of the T3/T2 male players get even if they beat those GC teams on a regular basis. Where is the sympathy for those guys? GC players stealing salaries just because they are of a minority gender and now they want a seat at the franchised level without proving themselves against the hoards waiting for a chance.

2.&3 It literally is? GC is allowed to fight for a spot in Ascension through open qualifiers and no wonder they lose? People are free to make mixed teams aswell and fight for an ascension spot? Nobody is owed a free lunch

1. sure but the whole point is that there is like 2 good players in v1
   I think its fair to say they would do a lot better with better players that surround them, as they could learn so much more.
   i will restate that this goes for tier 2/3 aswell.

2/3. never said anyone is owed anything, gc teams by themselves will never make it far in challengers.
I will restate again that they should be looked at the same tier2/3 is looked at. which is "a big pool of talent"

I don't get how anyone could be defending this. Yes she might not be good enough, but if players like jakee and runs are getting trials, the fact that she was rejected from a trial purely based on the fact that she is a woman is concerning. You don't know if a player is good enough until they are given an opportunity to play.

Nachtel [#41]

No, florescent and Mary's stats were better

Hence why the stats don't mean anything at all; there's no argument to be made that jakee and runi were picked up because they had better stats (which they don't) than GC players. They were picked up for visible talent shown in their gameplay

how'd you get insta downvotes lol

jakee and runi both went further in challengers qualifiers. not sure about other stats

to be fair, I personally don't think they were even good t1 pickups or estimates of t1 caliber

EWW_EU_EWHO [#36]

decision making against Ascendant level players is not the same as trying to outsmart the likes of saadhak and FNS.. and no - she is will not just magically get a chance before the likes of runi and even TrickAim. If she does it would be a pathetic case of increasing diversity and ignoring merit

Why do you keep twisting my words evne though i specifcally said that they shouldn't be prioritised over tier 2/3??
all im saying is that with better players around her she could be so much better (goes the same for tier 2/3)

CoCloudy [#42]

think of gc as an underdeveloped region.
and tier 2 and tier 3 as more developed region comparatively.

Lets take the Turkish scene as an analogy.
the region had so much talent but such few successful leadership
Emea teams like fnatic picked up insane talent like alfa
fnatic improved immensely.

With this analogy could tier 2/3 and gc not be held at the title of "a group of talent waiting to be picked up" ?
not saying gc players should be prioritised but should be looked at the same way franchised team looks at tier 2 and 3

I agree with the GC being an underdeveloped aspect of the scene. It's made up of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase due to decades of esports being male dominated. I dont disagree with that. However, as of right now. The GC players are by far not good enough for t2, let alone t1 teams.

Your analogy I'd agree with, if Alfajer wasn't the hard carry for surreal for so long, and known in EMEA before his pickup by fnatic, for how good of a player he was.

I'd also say your analogy would fit in years to come. I get the idea, but the GC scene is so underdeveloped compared to the generic T3/2 scene, so it's not the leadership that's lacking, it's also the lack of overall skill when compared to the counterparts in T3/2. We're in the really really early years of GC. It's why players like Flourescent can make it in t3/2(potentially), because they're still young, and will grow with the scene. Other players, will most likely never make it into a co-ed team. Be it the sexism, or just not good enough.

It's a shit situation right now for players trying to go co-ed. However it is the sad truth. Players right now in an underdeveloped scene, just aren't better prospects than others. That will change in the future though. We will see co-ed teams one day. Just right now, there's probably a handful of players in the world who can go co-ed and be successful.

Nachtel [#41]

No, florescent and Mary's stats were better

Hence why the stats don't mean anything at all; there's no argument to be made that jakee and runi were picked up because they had better stats (which they don't) than GC players. They were picked up for visible talent shown in their gameplay

GC players need to leave their GC team and play with others in VCT events. this way they can qualify into t2 or make top t2 qualifiers and be traded in

Nachtel [#38]

The people on this thread making 5 GC player teams vs 5 male challengers player team comparisons are actually so stupid and missing your point

its actually scary to see how many braindeads exist in this community

StalwartTiger_35 [#39]

V1 gets rolled by t3 randoms even with a former t1 player and the best igl in gc. GC type leagues are new so naturally it will take several years for the skill levels to become close to equal.

Bro the third best team in GC last year was being coached by PureVNS . V1 isn't even being coached by a proven coach, just a former V1 player from 2022 who couldn't get picked up anywhere else and not even their former IGL.

No offense to either of them, but there's a clear difference between the quality of coaches in GC vs the quality of coaches in challengers/VCT (cheT, sgares, Potter, bonkar, tanizq, mini, enghh, d00mbros, etc)

You cannot tell me that GC has adequate enough coaching staff to question why they can't play at a high enough level yet

Nachtel [#45]

By your logic all Nigerians are equally bad at valorant because a 5-player Nigerian roster would not be able to beat a 5-player Egyptian roster, even if 1-2 players within the Nigerian team were better than any of the Egyptian players individually

Lowest ping you get using Fiber Optic in Nigeria while playing on London server is 110/120 ish. And as a Nigerian, who grew up in Nigeria and I'm on various Nigerian gaming forums, I haven't seen, met or known of any other Nigerian (who isn't a disapora) playing valorant, esports isn't a thing here. I've met more girls in a single comp lobby, so no mate, you aren't even gonna get 5 Nigerian players on a team.

CoCloudy [#54]

its actually scary to see how many braindeads exist in this community

And you are one of them

brobeans [#53]

GC players need to leave their GC team and play with others in VCT events. this way they can qualify into t2 or make top t2 qualifiers and be traded in

they cant if certain teams are "uncomfortable playing with a women"
its so stupid but your right

CoCloudy [#54]

its actually scary to see how many braindeads exist in this community

i'm just trying to be honest i don't see the problem

Roid [#56]

Lowest ping you get using Fiber Optic in Nigeria while playing on London server is 110/120 ish. And as a Nigerian, who grew up in Nigeria and I'm on various Nigerian gaming forums, I haven't seen, met or known of any other Nigerian (who isn't a disapora) playing valorant, esports isn't a thing here. I've met more girls in a single comp lobby, so no mate, you aren't even gonna get 5 Nigerian players on a team.

Sorry your argument is void because my only retort to any meaningful discussion on this topic is posting games of Nigerian teams losing to literally anyone

What?? Certain groups of people have genuine, systemic reasons other than nationality or gender for why its members aren't represented at the highest level of play?? That's crazyyy

I never would've thought

Raevus [#52]

I agree with the GC being an underdeveloped aspect of the scene. It's made up of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase due to decades of esports being male dominated. I dont disagree with that. However, as of right now. The GC players are by far not good enough for t2, let alone t1 teams.

Your analogy I'd agree with, if Alfajer wasn't the hard carry for surreal for so long, and known in EMEA before his pickup by fnatic, for how good of a player he was.

I'd also say your analogy would fit in years to come. I get the idea, but the GC scene is so underdeveloped compared to the generic T3/2 scene, so it's not the leadership that's lacking, it's also the lack of overall skill when compared to the counterparts in T3/2. We're in the really really early years of GC. It's why players like Flourescent can make it in t3/2(potentially), because they're still young, and will grow with the scene. Other players, will most likely never make it into a co-ed team. Be it the sexism, or just not good enough.

It's a shit situation right now for players trying to go co-ed. However it is the sad truth. Players right now in an underdeveloped scene, just aren't better prospects than others. That will change in the future though. We will see co-ed teams one day. Just right now, there's probably a handful of players in the world who can go co-ed and be successful.

Your not wrong but I think its better to look at gc as players instead of team.

I'm sure tier 2/3 players are better than most gc players and with time that will change and even out.
But its not a stretch to say there are a few handful of gc players that could perform a lot better with better players around them, this goes for tier 2/3 as well.

Imo tier2/3 and gc teams should be generalised into one category of "big pool of talent to pick up from"
and sure the better players in that pool will be the tier 2/3 but I think its fair to say there are a few GC players that stand out among the rest and should be given the same opportunities as the tier 2/3 pros

CoCloudy [#54]

its actually scary to see how many braindeads exist in this community

from what i can see v1 sarah is a flex/initiator player so what player in this role in NA tier 1 deserves to get dropped so she can have her chance?

Roid [#35]

Okay, I hear you, let's leave the vague discussion. As an org currently in franchise, mention a GC player they should pick up (which there isn't any better player in that role in T1/T2) and why they should pick them up. Would love to see what you've got.

cant say unless the teams actually trial with any of them. But seems like they arent even willing to do that because they are "uncomfortable playing with a women"

tsmsobadholy [#47]

even the best GC players are walking ult orbs in tier 1

Source: your ass

Nachtel [#55]

Bro the third best team in GC last year was being coached by PureVNS . V1 isn't even being coached by a proven coach, just a former V1 player from 2022 who couldn't get picked up anywhere else and not even their former IGL.

No offense to either of them, but there's a clear difference between the quality of coaches in GC vs the quality of coaches in challengers/VCT (cheT, sgares, Potter, bonkar, tanizq, mini, enghh, d00mbros, etc)

You cannot tell me that GC has adequate enough coaching staff to question why they can't play at a high enough level yet

common Nachtel W

Nachtel [#64]

Source: your ass

Source: the fact that not a single tier 1 team has picked up a GC player for their main roster yet

tsmsobadholy [#66]

Source: the fact that not a single tier 1 team has picked up a GC player for their main roster yet

its the fact that they arent even willing to trial them because of their gender ??
your baits are getting a lot less realistic bro

CoCloudy [#67]

its the fact that they arent even willing to trial them because of their gender ??
your baits are getting a lot less realistic bro

ah yes the classic victim card

tsmsobadholy [#68]

ah yes the classic victim card

your so cool bro hating on women 😋😋

CoCloudy [#69]

your so cool bro hating on women 😋😋

you still haven't told me what tier 1 player in NA deserves to lose their job so V1 sarah can get a shot.

tsmsobadholy [#62]

from what i can see v1 sarah is a flex/initiator player so what player in this role in NA tier 1 deserves to get dropped so she can have her chance?

I dont want them to get dropped i js want her to get the same opportunities as tier2/3 players by trialling
not talking about tier 2/3 teams and gc teams
talking about tier 2/3 players and gc players

Finlad [#49]

I don't get how anyone could be defending this. Yes she might not be good enough, but if players like jakee and runs are getting trials, the fact that she was rejected from a trial purely based on the fact that she is a woman is concerning. You don't know if a player is good enough until they are given an opportunity to play.

WWWW

tsmsobadholy [#62]

from what i can see v1 sarah is a flex/initiator player so what player in this role in NA tier 1 deserves to get dropped so she can have her chance?

Your argument is full of strawmans

-Why specifically NA tier 1? OP never said anything about NA and players aren't restricted to playing in their home region
-OP never said any tier 1 player should be dropped specifically to sign any one player. There's loads of players already being dropped for various reasons and rosters that are still undecided. Nobody needs to be dropped for a GC player to get signed to a roster in the process of being built.
-Why use specifically Sarah as an example? the argument isn't all GC players deserve tier 1, it's that a few among the top of GC are good enough to do so.

1. Imo the most blatant example of GC players who would probably do well in tier 1 if given the chance are mel and florescent.
2. GE unironically signed Russ, so yes they are better than certain players in T1 teams. And that's not me saying that "GE should drop Russ for mel and florescent!"

Nachtel [#55]

Bro the third best team in GC last year was being coached by PureVNS . V1 isn't even being coached by a proven coach, just a former V1 player from 2022 who couldn't get picked up anywhere else and not even their former IGL.

No offense to either of them, but there's a clear difference between the quality of coaches in GC vs the quality of coaches in challengers/VCT (cheT, sgares, Potter, bonkar, tanizq, mini, enghh, d00mbros, etc)

You cannot tell me that GC has adequate enough coaching staff to question why they can't play at a high enough level yet

You're missing his point though.

V1 have support staff and experienced players with success behind their name. They're getting rolled by tier3 players nobody has ever heard of.
right now there's a clear disparity in raw skill between random t3 players, and one one of the most supported and developed GC team in the world.

Also you mention a few coaches who weren't proven until earlier this year.
Saying Effys is not a proven coach, isn't really fair on his behalf. He retired from playing, and coached a team into winning the GC split, without dropping a map. So not really fair on his behalf, as imo he's proven himself to be a competent coach. He's just didn't prove himself in tier1 or 2.

tsmsobadholy [#46]

just because you get high radiant doesn't mean you can go pro lol its a completely different game
especially tier 1

And? I'm saying #37 made a stupid point. that's not the crux of my argument regarding the question initially posed by the thread

Nachtel [#73]

Your argument is full of strawmans

-Why specifically NA tier 1? OP never said anything about NA and players aren't restricted to playing in their home region
-OP never said any tier 1 player should be dropped specifically to sign any one player. There's loads of players already being dropped for various reasons and rosters that are still undecided. Nobody needs to be dropped for a GC player to get signed to a roster in the process of being built.
-Why use specifically Sarah as an example? the argument isn't all GC players deserve tier 1, it's that a few among the top of GC are good enough to do so.

1. Imo the most blatant example of GC players who would probably do well in tier 1 if given the chance are mel and florescent.
2. GE unironically signed Russ, so yes they are better than certain players in T1 teams. And that's not me saying that "GE should drop Russ for mel and florescent!"

1. realistically no team is wasting their import slot on a GC player thats just a fact
2. russ is an experienced player that has played at masters events in the past so he isn't as bad as you may think
3. if you think flor and mel deserve to play in tier 1 what of the current player are getting dropped in order for them to get to play.

Raevus [#74]

You're missing his point though.

V1 have support staff and experienced players with success behind their name. They're getting rolled by tier3 players nobody has ever heard of.
right now there's a clear disparity in raw skill between random t3 players, and one one of the most supported and developed GC team in the world.

Also you mention a few coaches who weren't proven until earlier this year.
Saying Effys is not a proven coach, isn't really fair on his behalf. He retired from playing, and coached a team into winning the GC split, without dropping a map. So not really fair on his behalf, as imo he's proven himself to be a competent coach. He's just didn't prove himself in tier1 or 2.

having a 5 boys v 5 girls
and having the girls lose does not mean that all females playing in gc are bad
How you perform is a direct cause of factors like the team environment, the coaching and the calls your igl makes.
Tier 1 teams are way better at all 3 of these factors, the raw skill is there for gc its just missing all of those factors.
comparing a full female team to a full male team will get you no where
mixed rosters is the point im trying to make

tsmsobadholy [#76]

1. realistically no team is wasting their import slot on a GC player thats just a fact
2. russ is an experienced player that has played at masters events in the past so he isn't as bad as you may think
3. if you think flor and mel deserve to play in tier 1 what of the current player are getting dropped in order for them to get to play.

for the example of a team that hasnt rebuilt u seriously thinkl a team like C9 would drop Runi and then go and sign meL

Raevus [#74]

You're missing his point though.

V1 have support staff and experienced players with success behind their name. They're getting rolled by tier3 players nobody has ever heard of.
right now there's a clear disparity in raw skill between random t3 players, and one one of the most supported and developed GC team in the world.

Also you mention a few coaches who weren't proven until earlier this year.
Saying Effys is not a proven coach, isn't really fair on his behalf. He retired from playing, and coached a team into winning the GC split, without dropping a map. So not really fair on his behalf, as imo he's proven himself to be a competent coach. He's just didn't prove himself in tier1 or 2.

Competent compared to the rest of the GC scene? yes

but we've already established that the GC scene is underdeveloped. While having success to back up your rep as one of the better GC coaches proves that you're a competent coach, it doesn't prove that your a great coach by challengers/VCT standards. You said it yourself, there's a disparity between random t3 pug teams and V1 as a whole. If you consider V1 among the top GC teams itw, then the accomplishment of coaching them to beat teams below that t3 pug team standard isn't really that telling of your skill as a coach, especially in terms of coaching to beat teams above said standards

Who's to say if you had Happy or Joshrtz coaching V1 instead of Effys they wouldn't also able to make it into challengers? There's a difference between good and great results imo.

I know V1 have decent support staff but I just don't think it's enough in terms of quality not quantity i mean

Nachtel [#60]

Sorry your argument is void because my only retort to any meaningful discussion on this topic is posting games of Nigerian teams losing to literally anyone

What?? Certain groups of people have genuine, systemic reasons other than nationality or gender for why its members aren't represented at the highest level of play?? That's crazyyy

I never would've thought

Ofc who tf will wanna play a competitive shooter game with an average ping of 140/150ms,(110 is the lowest and only achievable with a fiber optic connection) especially when 90% of the players in lobby are on <30ms? I only play because my friends overseas ask me to queue with them. Where's the fun in a game where everyone appears to be running and gunning? Getting dinked before even seeing the enemy?

tsmsobadholy [#76]

1. realistically no team is wasting their import slot on a GC player thats just a fact
2. russ is an experienced player that has played at masters events in the past so he isn't as bad as you may think
3. if you think flor and mel deserve to play in tier 1 what of the current player are getting dropped in order for them to get to play.

1. That's irrelevant to the point of whether or not a GC player would be able to play well in said team

2. Bro he had worse stats than dephh at copenhagen. DEPHH. and he wasn't even Igling is the worst part.

3. Once again nobody has to get dropped in order for them to get signed, rosters still have open slots available.

tsmsobadholy [#78]

for the example of a team that hasnt rebuilt u seriously thinkl a team like C9 would drop Runi and then go and sign meL

are you living under a rock? they already dropped Runi, and zellsis, and xeppaaa, and Leaf, and Mce

Roid [#80]

Ofc who tf will wanna play a competitive shooter game with an average ping of 140/150ms,(110 is the lowest and only achievable with a fiber optic connection) especially when 90% of the players in lobby are on <30ms? I only play because my friends overseas ask me to queue with them. Where's the fun in a game where everyone appears to be running and gunning? Getting dinked before even seeing the enemy?

you're failing to see the sarcasm in my statement. read it again and come back to me

Nachtel [#73]

Your argument is full of strawmans

-Why specifically NA tier 1? OP never said anything about NA and players aren't restricted to playing in their home region
-OP never said any tier 1 player should be dropped specifically to sign any one player. There's loads of players already being dropped for various reasons and rosters that are still undecided. Nobody needs to be dropped for a GC player to get signed to a roster in the process of being built.
-Why use specifically Sarah as an example? the argument isn't all GC players deserve tier 1, it's that a few among the top of GC are good enough to do so.

1. Imo the most blatant example of GC players who would probably do well in tier 1 if given the chance are mel and florescent.
2. GE unironically signed Russ, so yes they are better than certain players in T1 teams. And that's not me saying that "GE should drop Russ for mel and florescent!"

wait you actually know how to debate properly

tsmsobadholy [#70]

you still haven't told me what tier 1 player in NA deserves to lose their job so V1 sarah can get a shot.

Ethan ofc

Nachtel [#82]

are you living under a rock? they already dropped Runi, and zellsis, and xeppaaa, and Leaf, and Mce

thats what i mean they dropped runi who is a top quality player and u seriously think they are gonna sign the likes of meL

Finlad [#49]

I don't get how anyone could be defending this. Yes she might not be good enough, but if players like jakee and runs are getting trials, the fact that she was rejected from a trial purely based on the fact that she is a woman is concerning. You don't know if a player is good enough until they are given an opportunity to play.

The fact she was denied because of her gender is fucked. I just hate how they never say the team who denied them. I'd love to see how a team defends having a garbage human on their team.

Lets also not look past the fact that Runi was on a tear in tier2(before ascension), and tier 3 when on SQ. Jake was hardly a bad player in his own when playing in t2/3. They wernt high profile players, but wernt dogshit. They were just "we cant afford buyout" pickups as c9 had to find players to place vanity and yay with.

Plus the most important reason they got picked up. C9 were broke and couldn't afford any buyouts from any team, so they had to find the most talented tier2/3 players they could, for as cheap as they can. Going from dropping two high profile players, to picking up 2 players nobody would have thought they'd pick up, says it was more money based than anything.

brobeans [#50]

how'd you get insta downvotes lol

jakee and runi both went further in challengers qualifiers. not sure about other stats

to be fair, I personally don't think they were even good t1 pickups or estimates of t1 caliber

I think it's questionable whether they could make it in NA t1 but they're definitely close I think...or at least a lot closer than people make them out to be

I am not trying to be sexist but the fact that V1 the team that destroys NA GC was getting 2-0ed in Knights monthly and other tournaments really proves the fact that GC isn't at the level of Tier 1.

https://www.vlr.gg/268896/version1-vs-ambrosia-knights-monthly-gauntlet-2023-august-ro32/?game=139454&tab=overview
https://www.vlr.gg/249881/version1-vs-lobster-fishers-nerd-street-valorant-lockdown-2-finals-opening-c

tsmsobadholy [#86]

thats what i mean they dropped runi who is a top quality player and u seriously think they are gonna sign the likes of meL

You tell me, why did they drop runi in the first place if he's a top quality player?

Nachtel [#83]

you're failing to see the sarcasm in my statement. read it again and come back to me

All I see if someone deflecting from the actual discussion at hand. Answer #35

CoCloudy [#63]

cant say unless the teams actually trial with any of them. But seems like they arent even willing to do that because they are "uncomfortable playing with a women"

True, I believe they should all have equal opportunities to trial with teams.

Roid [#91]

All I see if someone deflecting from the actual discussion at hand. Answer #35

Florescent should be picked up by Cloud9 because they already dropped a regionals winning roster, have no money are gambling on random players anyways.

Nachtel [#81]

1. That's irrelevant to the point of whether or not a GC player would be able to play well in said team

2. Bro he had worse stats than dephh at copenhagen. DEPHH. and he wasn't even Igling is the worst part.

3. Once again nobody has to get dropped in order for them to get signed, rosters still have open slots available.

1. If a player has 0 chance of getting picked up then of course they aren't going to play on said team
2. yes i understand that russ is bad statistically but if he is still getting picked up by t1 teams he must be bringing something to the table
3. yes rosters have slots available because player have already been dropped from the teams

tsmsobadholy [#66]

Source: the fact that not a single tier 1 team has picked up a GC player for their main roster yet

"The reason why tier 1 teams shouldn't consider signing a GC player is because they.... have not previously considered signing a GC player"

nice argument

Nachtel [#90]

You tell me, why did they drop runi in the first place if he's a top quality player?

why did they drop leaf who outside of demon1 is probably the best NA duelist?
why did they drop Mce who is arguably the best coach in terms of developing youth in the NA scene?
1 word money

tsmsobadholy [#94]

1. If a player has 0 chance of getting picked up then of course they aren't going to play on said team
2. yes i understand that russ is bad statistically but if he is still getting picked up by t1 teams he must be bringing something to the table
3. yes rosters have slots available because player have already been dropped from the teams

1. No player has a 0% chance of getting picked.

2. Yes and what he brings to the table is clearly not his ability. He brings to the table indian representation and a cheap salary. NOBODY should be going -22 on Kayo while koldamenta of all people is breaking even while IGLing. Not to mention he had Leo, Sayf, and trexx on his team. he can't even blame his team

3. Exactly, so it's not a question of "who should be dropped for who" because at the end of the day the player is already dropped regardless, it's simply a question of "who would be a good fit for this open slot on a team given their value and the budget constraints that the roster is under.

Nachtel [#93]

Florescent should be picked up by Cloud9 because they already dropped a regionals winning roster, have no money are gambling on random players anyways.

Okay, but why flor and not corey/wardell/bdog/baby ay/penny/LFT Oxy/sym to mention a few?

Nachtel [#97]

1. No player has a 0% chance of getting picked.

2. Yes and what he brings to the table is clearly not his ability. He brings to the table indian representation and a cheap salary. NOBODY should be going -22 on Kayo while koldamenta of all people is breaking even while IGLing. Not to mention he had Leo, Sayf, and trexx on his team. he can't even blame his team

3. Exactly, so it's not a question of "who should be dropped for who" because at the end of the day the player is already dropped regardless, it's simply a question of "who would be a good fit for this open slot on a team given their value and the budget constraints that the roster is under.

bro no team is dropping Runi and signing meL

tsmsobadholy [#99]

bro no team is dropping Runi and signing meL

When did I ever mention Runi in this reply

They deserve to be trailed, but let's be real no t1 teams will pick them up when there are so many t2 pros out there better than them, even a no namers ranked team beat the best GC teams with proper coaching staffs💀

Nachtel [#79]

Competent compared to the rest of the GC scene? yes

but we've already established that the GC scene is underdeveloped. While having success to back up your rep as one of the better GC coaches proves that you're a competent coach, it doesn't prove that your a great coach by challengers/VCT standards. You said it yourself, there's a disparity between random t3 pug teams and V1 as a whole. If you consider V1 among the top GC teams itw, then the accomplishment of coaching them to beat teams below that t3 pug team standard isn't really that telling of your skill as a coach, especially in terms of coaching to beat teams above said standards

Who's to say if you had Happy or Joshrtz coaching V1 instead of Effys they wouldn't also able to make it into challengers? There's a difference between good and great results imo.

I know V1 have decent support staff but I just don't think it's enough in terms of quality not quantity i mean

When I mention effys being competant, it's not as opposed to VCT coaches. They're by far a step and ahead of everyone. It's more he was hired to coach a GC team, and he's done a great job at that so far. The results in non Gc events is just a repeat of what happened in C9W. the team steamrolls teams in GC, just to be mediocre against t3 teams.

the main idea behind my point, is everyone arguing about v1 players deserving trials and spots in higher tier teams. Why though? They're struggling in t3 events, against non salaried teams, against players who probably wont ever hit tier1.
At this moment, with the GC scene being underdeveloped, it'll be years until we truely see a player from GC be t1 material. right now the closest we have is Fluorescent, and there's no shot she's getting on a t1 or t2 team anytime soon. There's far too many talented Jett mains in t3 atm.

With V1 having decent staff, they're also a decent team. If we compare support staff with vct, we should compare players aswell. The disparity between both is astronomical. IT's clear as that. However a decorated team, shouldn't be losing to Anima Squad Only.

My main inital point even with support staff, they're a above average team in the t3 scene. They're in a spot they deserve as of now. They're far from being a t2 team, and the top teams in t3 are far superior than them, be it with staff, and players. It's the sad truth. In a few years, we'll see players from GC shining in t2, and hopefully t1.

p.s. if my rambling didn't make sense, my bad. like 4 am here.

Nachtel [#100]

When did I ever mention Runi in this reply

1. the chance of a tier 1 team signing a GC player for their import slot is as close to 0% chance as it gets
2. yes russ is pretty bad compared to alot of tier 1 pros but im sure GE have done what they believe is best for the team going forward
3. no t1 team is replacing a player from their roster last year with a GC player because there are better options

CoCloudy [#77]

having a 5 boys v 5 girls
and having the girls lose does not mean that all females playing in gc are bad
How you perform is a direct cause of factors like the team environment, the coaching and the calls your igl makes.
Tier 1 teams are way better at all 3 of these factors, the raw skill is there for gc its just missing all of those factors.
comparing a full female team to a full male team will get you no where
mixed rosters is the point im trying to make

5 boys vs 5 girls doesn't matter in my point. My point mentions a fully staffed team, losing to a random t3 team.

We have to compare 5 boys vs 5 girls because we can't compare 5 girls vs 5girls. We're talking about how V1/Gc teams can join mixed teams, so we have to use data that we've seen when they're competing with their competition.

tier1 should be out of this discussion overall as a thread. No teams around GC will be near t1 anytime soon.

If we look at tier 2 - ascension
tier 3 - knights monthly, etc.
V1 are an above average team in tier3. They're a fully staffed team, salaried, getting beat by teams with unsalaried players, with maybe an unpaid coach.
The raw skill isn't there for GC. The support and funding is there. The raw skill is what is developing. As that develops, the support staff will grow to be more competent, as the league starts to get taken more seriously.

Mixed rosters will happen in the future. Right now, I can hardly see it unless fluorescent, Mel and Sarah join a mid tier3 team. tier2 right now is out of the question. Top tier3 they'll be competing against players who are honestly better than them right now.

CoCloudy [#61]

Your not wrong but I think its better to look at gc as players instead of team.

I'm sure tier 2/3 players are better than most gc players and with time that will change and even out.
But its not a stretch to say there are a few handful of gc players that could perform a lot better with better players around them, this goes for tier 2/3 as well.

Imo tier2/3 and gc teams should be generalised into one category of "big pool of talent to pick up from"
and sure the better players in that pool will be the tier 2/3 but I think its fair to say there are a few GC players that stand out among the rest and should be given the same opportunities as the tier 2/3 pros

You look at this as players due to how they look playing matches. If I'm a tier2 manger/coach and I'll look at individule players, and compare them with their counterparts.

Flourescent (probably the main and only real argument for a player talented enough
You have Neon, govenor, ALEKSANDAR, bdog. All 4 talented players with more experience against top teams, playing in tier3.

My point is that even with equal opportunity with trials, there are far better choices in terms of experience, career height, and success. Than the v1 players.

It's not a stretch to assume some GC players can perform better than the players around them. It is a stretch to say they'll perform better than the top of tier3 (with tier 2 being ascension). If it was one big pool, GC teams(V1), they would still be where they are now. When competing in tier3 events, they're rolled by teams who should be getting slammed.
A few GC players standout compared to the rest. That's for sure. Fluorescent, Sarah, mel, Mimi, Mary. All are phenomenal players. However there are tier 2/3 players who make them look average. tier2 being ascension, they'd toy with them in an official match. that's the sad truth about it.

Raevus [#102]

When I mention effys being competant, it's not as opposed to VCT coaches. They're by far a step and ahead of everyone. It's more he was hired to coach a GC team, and he's done a great job at that so far. The results in non Gc events is just a repeat of what happened in C9W. the team steamrolls teams in GC, just to be mediocre against t3 teams.

the main idea behind my point, is everyone arguing about v1 players deserving trials and spots in higher tier teams. Why though? They're struggling in t3 events, against non salaried teams, against players who probably wont ever hit tier1.
At this moment, with the GC scene being underdeveloped, it'll be years until we truely see a player from GC be t1 material. right now the closest we have is Fluorescent, and there's no shot she's getting on a t1 or t2 team anytime soon. There's far too many talented Jett mains in t3 atm.

With V1 having decent staff, they're also a decent team. If we compare support staff with vct, we should compare players aswell. The disparity between both is astronomical. IT's clear as that. However a decorated team, shouldn't be losing to Anima Squad Only.

My main inital point even with support staff, they're a above average team in the t3 scene. They're in a spot they deserve as of now. They're far from being a t2 team, and the top teams in t3 are far superior than them, be it with staff, and players. It's the sad truth. In a few years, we'll see players from GC shining in t2, and hopefully t1.

p.s. if my rambling didn't make sense, my bad. like 4 am here.

They still deserve trials because t3 isn't as bad as a lot of people realize. The strategy, macro, etc? dogshit compared to T2 and T1 obviously, but the individual talent is about the same as T1.

There's a reason mce could pick out jakee and runi amongst those very same t3 nobodies and make a roster that goes almost undefeated in the regular split of VCT Americas

Even Demon1 lost against 'STEALING LUNCH MONEY' in the quarterfinals of a knight's monthly. Sometimes insane talent gets buried under bad teams, but it's the real deal when it gets unearthed and put on a proper roster

I hope I understood your point.

Nachtel [#106]

They still deserve trials because t3 isn't as bad as a lot of people realize. The strategy, macro, etc? dogshit compared to T2 and T1 obviously, but the individual talent is about the same as T1.

There's a reason mce could pick out jakee and runi amongst those very same t3 nobodies and make a roster that goes almost undefeated in the regular split of VCT Americas

Even Demon1 lost against 'STEALING LUNCH MONEY' in the quarterfinals of a knight's monthly. Sometimes insane talent gets buried under bad teams, but it's the real deal when it gets unearthed and put on a proper roster

I hope I understood your point.

I agree that the t3 pool isn't as bad as I might make it out to be. In the grand scheme of t1/2/3, it's "dogshit". compared to the world, it's still something 99% of players dream about.
individually, I dont think as of right now, GC teams have the individual talent of t1/2. In a few years after the scene develops, yes. Right now, no shot.

There are players that shine in t2/3. Hell, it's where Demon1 came from. Just no GC player shines right now. They shine in GC where people start to believe a player is far better than what they are, only to have the C9W situation happen.

With jakee and Runi, they were both demons in tier2 (pre ascension), at the time. Runi on SQ had good runs, and Jakee on nsic had some decent runs, however he shone during the colligate league. Both wernt completely unknown players, they just wernt big names in tier2/3 at the time.
however lets not kid ourselves like there weren't better player that could have been picked up. C9 just didn't have any money, and their risk picking up two players from what became tier3, payed off.
No paid analyst could have forseen what c9 were going to do. However after dropping yay and vanity because they didn't have the funds, their pick ups made far more sense given both were free agents.

Raevus [#107]

I agree that the t3 pool isn't as bad as I might make it out to be. In the grand scheme of t1/2/3, it's "dogshit". compared to the world, it's still something 99% of players dream about.
individually, I dont think as of right now, GC teams have the individual talent of t1/2. In a few years after the scene develops, yes. Right now, no shot.

There are players that shine in t2/3. Hell, it's where Demon1 came from. Just no GC player shines right now. They shine in GC where people start to believe a player is far better than what they are, only to have the C9W situation happen.

With jakee and Runi, they were both demons in tier2 (pre ascension), at the time. Runi on SQ had good runs, and Jakee on nsic had some decent runs, however he shone during the colligate league. Both wernt completely unknown players, they just wernt big names in tier2/3 at the time.
however lets not kid ourselves like there weren't better player that could have been picked up. C9 just didn't have any money, and their risk picking up two players from what became tier3, payed off.
No paid analyst could have forseen what c9 were going to do. However after dropping yay and vanity because they didn't have the funds, their pick ups made far more sense given both were free agents.

I would honestly pair the collegiate league and GC as 1:1 in terms of how developed they are.

Hell even I've shit on collegiate teams because 70% of them are the only people to have hit immortal in their schools and subsequently got added to the school's valorant roster as a result

I think if someone like jakee can be given a shot based on collegiate performance then I can totally see someone like florescent being given a shot based on her GC performance

Nachtel [#108]

I would honestly pair the collegiate league and GC as 1:1 in terms of how developed they are.

Hell even I've shit on collegiate teams because 70% of them are the only people to have hit immortal in their schools and subsequently got added to the school's valorant roster as a result

I think if someone like jakee can be given a shot based on collegiate performance then I can totally see someone like florescent being given a shot based on her GC performance

I agree with that them being 1:1. I'd even argue that overall, GC is a better league, as I believe the general skill ceiling is higher in GC than collegiate leagues. This is mainly down to teams having players join, because they need to fill numbers.
The only thing with Jakee, was experience in what was tier2 at the time, with good performances. It's just his most recent great performances before the c9 pickup, was him on his college team.

Raevus [#109]

I agree with that them being 1:1. I'd even argue that overall, GC is a better league, as I believe the general skill ceiling is higher in GC than collegiate leagues. This is mainly down to teams having players join, because they need to fill numbers.
The only thing with Jakee, was experience in what was tier2 at the time, with good performances. It's just his most recent great performances before the c9 pickup, was him on his college team.

wouldn't you be able to say the same about Bob, who not only played in NA tier 2 in early 2022 but also won a first strike?

BigPPs [#101]

They deserve to be trailed, but let's be real no t1 teams will pick them up when there are so many t2 pros out there better than them, even a no namers ranked team beat the best GC teams with proper coaching staffs💀

I'm of the belief that you won't know until you try which is why her not getting a trial purely based off gender is kinda weirdchamp.

Nachtel [#110]

wouldn't you be able to say the same about Bob, who not only played in NA tier 2 in early 2022 but also won a first strike?

Bob could have been picked up, but there's no chance C9 post yay dropping was paying a buyout. Bob flo, and sarah are the 3 NA GC players who have mechanics to contest top of current t3. I can't seen them competing 1-1 against the current t2 teams for a spot as initiator and Duelist. The current t2 teams sova and duelist players are all cracked out of their minds.

top t3 teams, I can see Sarah or bob competing for a spot. Flo, I think the current teams aiming for ascension have Jett players who are just better than her right now.

Raevus [#112]

Bob could have been picked up, but there's no chance C9 post yay dropping was paying a buyout. Bob flo, and sarah are the 3 NA GC players who have mechanics to contest top of current t3. I can't seen them competing 1-1 against the current t2 teams for a spot as initiator and Duelist. The current t2 teams sova and duelist players are all cracked out of their minds.

top t3 teams, I can see Sarah or bob competing for a spot. Flo, I think the current teams aiming for ascension have Jett players who are just better than her right now.

I think my issue comes from the notion that GC players wouldn't be able to perform well in tier2/tier1

Like you said, theres so many cracked out initiators/duelists in tier 2, but the gap between Tier 2 and tier 1 is so small that while yes, there are better players in Tier 2, that doesn't necessarily mean that GC players wouldn't still be able to perform in T2/T1.

Imo if mCe had picked up skuba instead of jakee (which he did for budget reasons) then C9 would've done better, but that doesn't mean jakee himself performed badly on C9.

Does that point make sense?

Raevus [#87]

The fact she was denied because of her gender is fucked. I just hate how they never say the team who denied them. I'd love to see how a team defends having a garbage human on their team.

Lets also not look past the fact that Runi was on a tear in tier2(before ascension), and tier 3 when on SQ. Jake was hardly a bad player in his own when playing in t2/3. They wernt high profile players, but wernt dogshit. They were just "we cant afford buyout" pickups as c9 had to find players to place vanity and yay with.

Plus the most important reason they got picked up. C9 were broke and couldn't afford any buyouts from any team, so they had to find the most talented tier2/3 players they could, for as cheap as they can. Going from dropping two high profile players, to picking up 2 players nobody would have thought they'd pick up, says it was more money based than anything.

I understand that c9 were broke. But I still think that it should be a point to orgs that just because they are playing with lower competition doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad.

CoCloudy [#58]

they cant if certain teams are "uncomfortable playing with a women"
its so stupid but your right

you mean one team where one player didn't feel comfortable playing with a woman, why you acting like its multiple? GC pros like mel get massive support from the community look at the comments on her recent tweet talking about the situation that slasher the fraud created. I think she could get into a mixed roster if she wants to, one with her male, lgbtq and female friends, they might start FA but if they are good enough they'll get picked. But she probably wont do that for obvious reasons.

Nachtel [#113]

I think my issue comes from the notion that GC players wouldn't be able to perform well in tier2/tier1

Like you said, theres so many cracked out initiators/duelists in tier 2, but the gap between Tier 2 and tier 1 is so small that while yes, there are better players in Tier 2, that doesn't necessarily mean that GC players wouldn't still be able to perform in T2/T1.

Imo if mCe had picked up skuba instead of jakee (which he did for budget reasons) then C9 would've done better, but that doesn't mean jakee himself performed badly on C9.

Does that point make sense?

It makes perfect sense.

My whole pov, althought not the same.

For GC players, they excel in GC. These players struggle against t3 male teams. the gap between the top of tier2 and tier1 is small, as the players in both leagues were competing against each other for years, and could all honestly play in each league, despite a few superstar players.
In a couple years, I can see flo being in tier2. Right now she's still like what, 17. she's still learning. I feel people treat her like shes monesy, being a young phenom. She's a great player, but given a few more years to develop, she'll leave GC behind her hopefully, and compete in t2, and maybe t1. Right now though, she's the only one I can see with the potential to push through. I'd say Mary, but she retired unluckily. bob, sarah, and mel. there are better choices grinding in t3 atm, who arent good enough to play in t2, let alone t1.

I agree with skuba. I also think brawk would have been a great pickup if they had the money aswell. Hell, Zander would have been a phenomenal pickup over Jakee, aswell as Nismo. However they were broke and went with two players who nobody believes in, and who both performed pretty well considering they were thrown into the deep end, with huge amounts of pressure on them.

Nachtel [#90]

You tell me, why did they drop runi in the first place if he's a top quality player?

cause he don't wanna play for minimum or they want to bring back vanity so they can drop him mid season again and pick runi back up again.

Finlad [#114]

I understand that c9 were broke. But I still think that it should be a point to orgs that just because they are playing with lower competition doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad.

An org will look at cost + return.
They were broke and couldn't afford players in tier2 due to buyout contracts. If they had the funds, runi and jakee probably wouldn't have been on their radar, as there are better individule players in tier2. After yay was dropped, and c9 players were going back on their old roles. I initially thought they'd get someone like brawk, zander, or nisimo.

c9 were just fortunate that their risk of picking up two free agents, payed off and they went on a tear through the whole event.

Orgs should look at potential talent, and one day we'll get that when academy teams will become a thing. It's just with franchise, orgs can't take the risk of picking up an inexperienced or young player. C9 just didn't have a choice in their situation.

Raevus [#104]

5 boys vs 5 girls doesn't matter in my point. My point mentions a fully staffed team, losing to a random t3 team.

We have to compare 5 boys vs 5 girls because we can't compare 5 girls vs 5girls. We're talking about how V1/Gc teams can join mixed teams, so we have to use data that we've seen when they're competing with their competition.

tier1 should be out of this discussion overall as a thread. No teams around GC will be near t1 anytime soon.

If we look at tier 2 - ascension
tier 3 - knights monthly, etc.
V1 are an above average team in tier3. They're a fully staffed team, salaried, getting beat by teams with unsalaried players, with maybe an unpaid coach.
The raw skill isn't there for GC. The support and funding is there. The raw skill is what is developing. As that develops, the support staff will grow to be more competent, as the league starts to get taken more seriously.

Mixed rosters will happen in the future. Right now, I can hardly see it unless fluorescent, Mel and Sarah join a mid tier3 team. tier2 right now is out of the question. Top tier3 they'll be competing against players who are honestly better than them right now.

again like i mentioned previously the environment, igl calls and coaching is more important.
You say they have the funding and staff when their coach is literally the second caller leftover from their main team? They dont have an assistant coach either?
Also the games you talked about with V1 in challengers, they were the only gc roster to participate and it was one of the first games of their season with that roster?
They have improved immensely since that first game.
We will just have to wait to see them try to qualify again the next challengers season

Al-Mawsil [#115]

you mean one team where one player didn't feel comfortable playing with a woman, why you acting like its multiple? GC pros like mel get massive support from the community look at the comments on her recent tweet talking about the situation that slasher the fraud created. I think she could get into a mixed roster if she wants to, one with her male, lgbtq and female friends, they might start FA but if they are good enough they'll get picked. But she probably wont do that for obvious reasons.

Yh I just reread the slasher tweets it turns out he was capping bout multiple teams it was just one.

czeroi [#89]

I am not trying to be sexist but the fact that V1 the team that destroys NA GC was getting 2-0ed in Knights monthly and other tournaments really proves the fact that GC isn't at the level of Tier 1.

https://www.vlr.gg/268896/version1-vs-ambrosia-knights-monthly-gauntlet-2023-august-ro32/?game=139454&tab=overview
https://www.vlr.gg/249881/version1-vs-lobster-fishers-nerd-street-valorant-lockdown-2-finals-opening-c

comparing full female teams with full male teams will get you nowhere...