My Opinion on Exploits (fixed)

tldr: I personally believe the punishment is right because that is what the rules say, but Riot is still at fault because of poor communication. I have provided an analysis of what I think should change

Obviously there is some drama right now with KS getting DQ'd vs Acend. I find it very odd that Riot decided to use a round by round counting to explain the loss. The butterfly effect ensures that you can't just change something in one round and think that following rounds wont be affected. If Riot decide that an exploit was used, that is a DQ no matter how many rounds it was used. An exploit used in 1 round of a 13-5 win could definately be a major factor to the win.

I disagree with Riot's approach to exploits, but assuming that this bug "should" be an exploit there are still some things right and some things wrong.
From KS and JhoW's perspective: This bug was public, and they should have known not to use it. Both X10 and Giants had punishments from this.
From Riot's perspective: The punishments are consistent. (X10 forfeited a map which ended up eliminating them from Masters 3). When Guild first beat the G2 juggernaut in First Strike, they got DQ'd for an "exploit" of placing a sage wall on a KJ turret.

However, I disagree with two fundamental parts of Riot's approach here.
1) I don't think that in game mechanics should be considered exploits. At the very least Riot should not determine what is and isn't an exploit. Riot has proven time and again that they do not consider the REALITY of the game instead they consider The way the game is INTENDED to be played. For example, in the Guild DQ, patitek used a banned skin (the sound of the elderflame was widely considered pay to win at the time before some slight changes). G2 were not DQ'd because unfair skins are part of the game and sage walls on KJ turrets are not SUPPOSED to be. I completely understand that some things should be banned from professional play (in games with character skins there are usually tons of them banned), but the people deciding this should be INDEPENDENT, concerned with integrity and not what makes Riot look like their game is polished.
2) The communication is bad. Suffice to say, every tournament organizer should make it abundantly clear what is and isn't banned. JhoW should have known about this but he didn't. X10 and Giants had no clue that it was not allowed. Guild were completely surprised that their boost was illegal. Even if a team should be DQ'd the tournament organizer has failed to make the best event by poor communication.

My fix: Riot should allow a player based council to determine the rules of what is and isn't allowed. If this need funding, tournament organizers should provide this as it serves their best interests for disasters like this to be prevented. This council should not be beholden to any particular interests besides what the majority of the players want. It should make its rules very clear and public.

Obviously something like this is not an easy fix and it needs a push, but Riot and tournament organizers should be incentivized to do this because it helps their scene. In the end, only widespread public support for some change (not necessarily my change, I'm not ESIC here) can cause something to happen.

There's a rulebook, but poorly updated. If not, should've been fine. But it's terrible. Doesn't even have THIS VERY BUG even though it first appeared ages ago.
Also yes that FURIA jump was totally fair, you could do it with every character if you have good movement, which in the end comes down to skill.

I would say that the best change that is easy to accomplish is better communication about what is and isn't allowed. TO's should be pushing exploit lists in front of players to prevent things like this.

ilikerubikscubes [#2]

There's a rulebook, but poorly updated. If not, should've been fine. But it's terrible. Doesn't even have THIS VERY BUG even though it first appeared ages ago.
Also yes that FURIA jump was totally fair, you could do it with every character if you have good movement, which in the end comes down to skill.

Yeah in the case of the Furia jump, the entire problem was communication. This is a bad situation but hopefully this causes some changes for the future.

I personally don't find it likely that Jhow didn't know that the cam was a bug. I remember not being invested in valorant pro scene until masters berlin and I even heard about the X10 ruling. The idea that you would specifically try to put your cam there when you have to jump off stairs to do it, especially when as a pro player, it's sort of your job to find neat cams online, and that no one on the team knew about this, not any other players or the coach? I can see not knowing about the haven box jump with CR and Furia, but for the cam, I just see no way you could not know it was an exploit.

Tooker [#5]

I personally don't find it likely that Jhow didn't know that the cam was a bug. I remember not being invested in valorant pro scene until masters berlin and I even heard about the X10 ruling. The idea that you would specifically try to put your cam there when you have to jump off stairs to do it, especially when as a pro player, it's sort of your job to find neat cams online, and that no one on the team knew about this, not any other players or the coach? I can see not knowing about the haven box jump with CR and Furia, but for the cam, I just see no way you could not know it was an exploit.

I think the real problem lies in the fact that Riot didn't pause the match. I remember people in twitch chat spamming that the cypher cam was illegal, but somehow riot admins didn't see it.

FerahgoTheGreat [#4]

Yeah in the case of the Furia jump, the entire problem was communication. This is a bad situation but hopefully this causes some changes for the future.

Honestly being a student who takes multiple exams and shit, momentum is a big thing. I think anybody who's done a lot of activities under pressure agrees with this.
Psychological effects aside, again it was part of the game since a long time ago, it doesn't even require Jett's floating thingy (i forgot the name, excuse me). You could jump on the small plant box then 180 up top using a crouch jump. IT IS MOVEMENT-BASED, NOT GLITCHY OR WHATEVER
I hope that Riot actually gets competent referees, and actually do punishments/remakes proactively. The cam was on goddamn stream, no shot the referees did not see it.

ilikerubikscubes [#7]

Honestly being a student who takes multiple exams and shit, momentum is a big thing. I think anybody who's done a lot of activities under pressure agrees with this.
Psychological effects aside, again it was part of the game since a long time ago, it doesn't even require Jett's floating thingy (i forgot the name, excuse me). You could jump on the small plant box then 180 up top using a crouch jump. IT IS MOVEMENT-BASED, NOT GLITCHY OR WHATEVER
I hope that Riot actually gets competent referees, and actually do punishments/remakes proactively. The cam was on goddamn stream, no shot the referees did not see it.

I mean, what is the alternative, if Furia was exploiting a bug that I assume was in the list, do you just let them complete the map? I think if Riot would've post-hoc given the map to SEN, or made them replay the rounds, people would have been a whole lot more upset than just pausing mid-game. Seemed like a lose-lose for Riot there.

TLDR

Tooker [#5]

I personally don't find it likely that Jhow didn't know that the cam was a bug. I remember not being invested in valorant pro scene until masters berlin and I even heard about the X10 ruling. The idea that you would specifically try to put your cam there when you have to jump off stairs to do it, especially when as a pro player, it's sort of your job to find neat cams online, and that no one on the team knew about this, not any other players or the coach? I can see not knowing about the haven box jump with CR and Furia, but for the cam, I just see no way you could not know it was an exploit.

This is so true... there is a very slim chance that someone on Vivo Keyd or Jhow himself didn't know about this cam bug... Like I could understand if the bug wasn't used in pro play prior to this ruling, but it was used 2 other times with the same punishment.

Tooker [#8]

I mean, what is the alternative, if Furia was exploiting a bug that I assume was in the list, do you just let them complete the map? I think if Riot would've post-hoc given the map to SEN, or made them replay the rounds, people would have been a whole lot more upset than just pausing mid-game. Seemed like a lose-lose for Riot there.

I did say Riot should do punishments/remakes proactively. The FURIA and VK cases are different.
FURIA got paused for a completely legal jump.
VK used a totally illegal cam, but Riot did not actively pause the game and remake/do punishments.
Just incompetence on Riot's side.
I don't even think the jump was in the rulebook, the referees just went "oh shit they did something nasty, might be illegal" and paused the game. (again, completely legal). If it was legal, then I guess just give SEN the round.
Agreed, it might be a lose-lose, but at least Riot and try and be more fair and active in games.

thenutoriousPRO [#9]

TLDR

In my opinion there needs to be a clearer communication of the rules. At the very least: TO's like Riot make sure players know the rules beforehand. Ideally, an independent group decides and communicates what is and isn't allowed.

I agree with you on most points, but forfeiting the match or DQ'ing as punishment is too harsh and should be reserved for more severe cases. I think a map rematch or even a full rematch would suffice in such a case, or at least giving out a map penalty on the offending team's next match.

Also, I must commend you on your very well structured solution to the problem (you should get a job at ESIC btw), too bad Riot won't give a shit.

Tooker [#6]

I think the real problem lies in the fact that Riot didn't pause the match. I remember people in twitch chat spamming that the cypher cam was illegal, but somehow riot admins didn't see it.

No, I think the real problem is that they chose to arbitrarily adjust rounds vs making them replay the half or forfeit the map in general. They could have had the same exact effect of Acend winning the bo3 by saying the map is forfeited by KS instead of saying they're giving the rounds away 1 by 1 and by pure chance, Acend happened to get to 13 rounds (after adjusting for a hypothetical economic factor). That's just SOO dumb

I feel for this type of decision riot should act similarly to NFL. When an infraction happens, referees need to stop the match when the round ends and after evaluating then confirming that the exploit was used, they need to give the victim a choice between replaying the round or to ignore what happens. If a referee didn't notice the exploit at time, he should be punished accordingly, given the fact that his job is to protect the competitive integrity and, at this situation, he failed to do so

washedaway [#13]

I agree with you on most points, but forfeiting the match or DQ'ing as punishment is too harsh and should be reserved for more severe cases. I think a map rematch or even a full rematch would suffice in such a case, or at least giving out a map penalty on the offending team's next match.

Also, I must commend you on your very well structured solution to the problem (you should get a job at ESIC btw), too bad Riot won't give a shit.

Maybe economy benefits can be used for better ruling. Jhow, for example, firstly use the camera in a eco round. Acend could repeat the round also having more money, perhaps enough for a full buy

1king [#14]

No, I think the real problem is that they chose to arbitrarily adjust rounds vs making them replay the half or forfeit the map in general. They could have had the same exact effect of Acend winning the bo3 by saying the map is forfeited by KS instead of saying they're giving the rounds away 1 by 1 and by pure chance, Acend happened to get to 13 rounds (after adjusting for a hypothetical economic factor). That's just SOO dumb

I agree with this as well. The games commonly go over their scheduled times, I don't see why Riot couldn't have just made them replay this half tomorrow morning.

washedaway [#13]

I agree with you on most points, but forfeiting the match or DQ'ing as punishment is too harsh and should be reserved for more severe cases. I think a map rematch or even a full rematch would suffice in such a case, or at least giving out a map penalty on the offending team's next match.

Also, I must commend you on your very well structured solution to the problem (you should get a job at ESIC btw), too bad Riot won't give a shit.

Yeah since it was a DQ in the past it should be a DQ here (although it probably shouldn't be a DQ in general). There should be a more transparent public ruleset for not only what is allowed but also the severity of punishments. Even good punishments without prior communication feel very arbitrary and unfair.

Viktor22 [#15]

I feel for this type of decision riot should act similarly to NFL. When an infraction happens, referees need to stop the match when the round ends and after evaluating then confirming that the exploit was used, they need to give the victim a choice between replaying the round or to ignore what happens. If a referee didn't notice the exploit at time, he should be punished accordingly, given the fact that his job is to protect the competitive integrity and, at this situation, he failed to do so

Aren't there refs who actively look for suspicious stuff like this DURING the match anyways? wtf were they doing when these cams showed up? I refuse to believe they are incompetent to the point of not noticing such a blatant offense in the game.

Tooker [#17]

I agree with this as well. The games commonly go over their scheduled times, I don't see why Riot couldn't have just made them replay this half tomorrow morning.

It would be interesting to see if Riot bow to public pressure and make this change to replay the map. It is good that they respond to public pressure but it exposes their lack of integrity and forethought.

FerahgoTheGreat [#20]

It would be interesting to see if Riot bow to public pressure and make this change to replay the map. It is good that they respond to public pressure but it exposes their lack of integrity and forethought.

Unlikely, once you make a decision like this, you kind of have to stick with it, or every time you make a controversial call, people will just try to get them to overturn their decision.

washedaway [#19]

Aren't there refs who actively look for suspicious stuff like this DURING the match anyways? wtf were they doing when these cams showed up? I refuse to believe they are incompetent to the point of not noticing such a blatant offense in the game.

To their credit, Riot is one of the only game devs that actually reacts to bad situations and public pressure. On the flip side, they are awful at planning and being proactive. There are so many ways this could have been avoided.

Tooker [#21]

Unlikely, once you make a decision like this, you kind of have to stick with it, or every time you make a controversial call, people will just try to get them to overturn their decision.

Agreed. it's extremely unfortunate, but they cannot reverse this decision, no matter how poorly it was made

ilikerubikscubes [#11]

I did say Riot should do punishments/remakes proactively. The FURIA and VK cases are different.
FURIA got paused for a completely legal jump.
VK used a totally illegal cam, but Riot did not actively pause the game and remake/do punishments.
Just incompetence on Riot's side.
I don't even think the jump was in the rulebook, the referees just went "oh shit they did something nasty, might be illegal" and paused the game. (again, completely legal). If it was legal, then I guess just give SEN the round.
Agreed, it might be a lose-lose, but at least Riot and try and be more fair and active in games.

Proactive behavior has never been Riots strong suit. The reaction usually comes when they need to fix a mistake and dollars are at stake.

Viktor22 [#16]

Maybe economy benefits can be used for better ruling. Jhow, for example, firstly use the camera in a eco round. Acend could repeat the round also having more money, perhaps enough for a full buy

The other reasonable punishment in my eyes is replay from the first point the cam was used, but I don't think Riot should change their ruling because people don't like it. Even if a change in punishment is the right call it would hurt the integrity of the tournament even more.