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Maybe Riot's Long Term Vision?

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#1
miniature

This is all my own impression of many decisions coming out of Riot, no set timeline here I'm not a private investigator I have to do my own prep for qualifiers with these changes. This is a long one so buckle up and get a coffee.

Before any opinions are said I want to say that nothing I feel that I am pointing out means I agree with how things are done.

I do not play LoL, but I know a lot of people that do, and I know a few that have played it for a long time and followed their scene for a long time. In the conversations I have had with them I have gotten the idea that LoL has a problem. League has tons of agents, but to my understanding ~30 champs of 167 current champs available are actually played in pro play consistently. People don't try things (anymore?). Riot has made it kinda obvious they don't want Valorant to take that route.

There was a change that has been long since forgotten when the game was new that sounds RIDICULOUS today with current/coming metas. We're talking pre kayo release even, tbh im not sure how long ago it was-but the game was kinda boring. People were just running at eachother, there wasnt much util in the game yet, and fights were just kinda boring coinflips sometimes. OG Jett with og knives dash everything, got farmed by cypher trips. 1 insane patch later and Jett dash broke cypher trips. In today's state of the game that is WILD.

"miniature ur smoking something what the hell does this have to do with skye and some master plan?"

Jett was the most exciting agent to both watch and play back then, this was the beginning of the game as an esport. Even today, Jett is the posterchild of Valorant and she really isnt that great anymore, especially not comparably to back then.
If meta did not revolve around insane Jett plays and went to more calculated counterstrike-style defaults, we would not have the same valorant we have today. The game would not have this level of popularity.
Valorant has EXPLODED forward with each OP agent that has been in the game because the gameplay tends to be exciting to watch. Watching seoldam's insane knife clips back when right clicks refilled and had basically no reload/cooldown, something about it felt magical, even if we all accepted it was a little bit silly. That evolved into watching Yay become the most dominant player in the game, every team he played against had multiple calls a game that were just to run away from him. The guy was a BEAST on the agent. Fundamentally great for marketing the game bc what we got to see was simple for casual players to understand, but complex enough for better players/teams to have a skill gap at using it.

"Huh, I guess all that is true, but where are we going with this? We don't have either of those anymore so what do they even matter?"

What I want to ask everyone(not really rhetorical),

"Why don't we ever talk about Astra anymore?"

I would argue Astra had more impact on meta than any other agent in an isolated setting and its really not even close. Astra enabled EVERYTHING and there was nothing you could do about it. Hell, she started off being able to use stars off barrier dropping, you would physically not be able to take space off barrier bc it would be sucked and combo'd immediately. We don't ever talk about the fact she was the best controller the game has ever seen and hopefully ever will.
Chamber was still broken, everything revolved around him-he was the center of the universe-nobody can say otherwise. However, we also had prime duelist kayo, insane flashes, perfect utility to deal with opposing chambers, and soon enough we also had fade which did the same. If Prime Chamber was Michael Jordan, he had the same Bulls lineup that enabled that greatness to be seen.

"miniature im getting bored. I care but get to a point pls holy shit."

The pieces start to make a clearer picture with that last idea; Chamber was great but man was that support cast also extremely consistent across maps. Hell, even fracture had people try to forgo breach to setup/counter chamber better(yes im aware there were comps that worked blah blah, it was extremely hard). This is where that concept about LoL champ diversity comes up. League is a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way ahead of us as far as development, but we almost have as many agents in our game as their pro play actually sees.
Riot. Does. Not. Want. That. For. Valorant.

"Says you noob you're not even a real pro, why would I take your word on anything?"
If chamber was truly the only agent that was "dominating/ruining meta" back then, why has every single agent that supported him been dramatically nerfed(at least to their primary function during that meta, kayo still used but its diff now). Astra's gone, Fade is gone(sadge my best agent), Kayo is no longer a duelist god, hell even viper had her wall-orb combo nerfed.
If that doesn't tell you "Riot doesn't want copy paste comps across maps for long periods," then I don't think you should keep reading. Riot wants EXCITEMENT and ENTERTAINING gameplay.

"Alright I'm starting to see what this is all about, but whats this whole 'bigger picture' aspect?"

The constant factor that has led to this happening over and over, this time with a much more BORING skye meta that enables very slow structured consistent gameplay across maps, is time spent perfecting gameplay.
As a competitor, unsuccessful so far but for shortcomings I have worked my ass off to fix, I get the pain everyone is going through about how much work is just down the drain. There's nothing that can be said or truth that can be spoken that makes that any less painful or damaging. But I don't think Riot wants teams to succeed because they're better at preparing and practicing, they want teams to win because they adapt better than others.

I, PERSONALLY, have criticized their lack of any real grass roots developmental strategy with how dumb ranked is and what it rewards, but I think I missed this one.

If these decisions, now including this Skye assassination, are all part of a bigger picture, HONSETLY, IM OK WITH IT.
I get that that is a scalding HOT take but I feel like if we zoom out, so far this isn't really that horrific.

The part where it gets sketchy and I understand how this can be disrespectful to just throw out ideas about but it has a logic thread to it; this explains why their recent layoffs are specifically esports division people. They've been getting more and more on our side and taking in the criticism even if it doesn't look like it, bc he-who-shall-not-be-named is just completely out-of-touch and is the only public face of the direction/changes being made. Riot carries a lot of pride in their decision making and as I said in my 2birds1stone post about the whole less matches thing, some of that is earned, but that doesn't make it healthy.

It's a bit poetically sadistic but I can see a bit of an image forming: massive meta changes just before the start of a season that has less matches overall means teams WILL struggle to adapt, thus the teams best at it will thrive.

There may not be a hard set meta on every map, or even 2 or 3 comps that you always see. This may be riot firing the starter pistol in the race of "who will reach the promised land of their long term vision of Valorant as an esport." I'm creative, I feel like I see possibilities in comps others don't, I've been lazy with a lot of it cuz I didn't want to fully igl until now, but other comps DO WORK. and NOBODY tries any of it. We've seen token test runs with C9 deadlock on Icebox in this Ludwig tourney, EG last season with yoru jett Pearl (but even then yoru is genuinely nuts on that map to begin with), Gekko here and there, but its on average its a meme.

#2
miniature
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TL;dr

Riot wants this game to maintain excitement and diversity. Historically a lot of the updates and changes have kinda centered around that, once we comprehend that they can only do so much with the current agents available in the game, and that has applied differently to each era of the game. This update to skye and vct matches was not made to strengthen the current scene it was made to trim the fat before they give us a system that has better long term viability(hopefully that 2nd part is true).

This is all my own impression of many decisions coming out of Riot, no set timeline here I'm not a private investigator I have to do my own prep for qualifiers with these changes. This is a long one so buckle up and get a coffee. Before any opinions are said I want to say that nothing I feel that I am pointing out means I agree with how things are done.

#3
babysasuke
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Can you TL;DR the point, I think it (or I) got kinda lost in there somewhere

Stuff you said makes sense though

Riot blew up the meta right before matches started to see who can adapt the fastest and we get to see new stuff? And they think whoever can do that is the best team for the vision they have for the game?

#4
miniature
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babysasuke [#3]

Can you TL;DR the point, I think it (or I) got kinda lost in there somewhere

Stuff you said makes sense though

Riot blew up the meta right before matches started to see who can adapt the fastest and we get to see new stuff? And they think whoever can do that is the best team for the vision they have for the game?

I genuinely ran out of space in the op so im using the 2nd comment as that Tldr post

#5
babysasuke
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miniature [#4]

I genuinely ran out of space in the op so im using the 2nd comment as that Tldr post

ah I see

Could explain the Gekko/Deadlock/Iso buffs too, give them a little something while nuking agents that are overused to keep it exciting without having to deal with power creep (which is/was a huge problem in LoL)

#6
nutab1e
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I read allat

if riot wants adaptable teams and exciting gameplay, agent pick/ban in pro league seems like the most obvious thing that jumps out to me.

massive meta changes just before the start of a season that has less matches overall means teams WILL struggle to adapt, thus the teams best at it will thrive

eh, I think more it will just result in the league being a flukefest. Without a large enough sample size of matches I don't think we'll be able to see who really is the best at adapting to many different things, it will really just be which team clicks with a meta at the right time.

It seems like franchising as a concept is directly opposed to the vision you've outlined here. Which could very well be the case I wouldn't put it past riot.

#7
miniature
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babysasuke [#5]

ah I see

Could explain the Gekko/Deadlock/Iso buffs too, give them a little something while nuking agents that are overused to keep it exciting without having to deal with power creep (which is/was a huge problem in LoL)

Exactly. I think if you ask any pro what agent is the most overpowered(at least on paper), I would expect almost unanimously to hear "Yoru"
The reason he isnt seen much in pro play is bc the current meta, if you look at FNATIC or LOUD, their duelist is used as a macro tool A LOT, set them up and push them into him or punish them by being stacked. Yoru is inherently a creative-"I have to make decisions on the fly" agent which he has every tool he needs to do that well, but its a lot less plug and play which means theres a ton of work involved to have him succeed

#8
miniature
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nutab1e [#6]

I read allat

if riot wants adaptable teams and exciting gameplay, agent pick/ban in pro league seems like the most obvious thing that jumps out to me.

massive meta changes just before the start of a season that has less matches overall means teams WILL struggle to adapt, thus the teams best at it will thrive

eh, I think more it will just result in the league being a flukefest. Without a large enough sample size of matches I don't think we'll be able to see who really is the best at adapting to many different things, it will really just be which team clicks with a meta at the right time.

It seems like franchising as a concept is directly opposed to the vision you've outlined here. Which could very well be the case I wouldn't put it past riot.

There will be fluke's but at the same time that will happen due to the change in what skills/capabilities reward a team with that win consistently.

We simply don't have enough agents that even partially have fallback replacements. Thats the big thing with this skye change rn

as far as the franchise part, having a vision doesn't mean that EVERY aspect of their business model for the esport also gets put on hold until it gets to where they want it. That also doesn't mean the franchising aspect of the game isn't hurting that goal, but I have trouble seeing the game randomly switch to a franchise model 5 years in when they already know thats the plan.

#9
cartixuzi
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The current meta isn't being changed because it's boring, it's being changed because it's been the staple for far too long now. If this wasn't the case then there would've been a meta change last year before Masters or Champs, two of the biggest events the game can offer, to make up a meta that's priorities individual skill more to make it more exciting or smth. Riot don't purposely change the meta to make it more exciting, they usually only do it for the sake of change whether ppl agree with it or not.

Back in the first half of 2021, LoL was in the most stale as fuck meta that has ever graced the game which was the Udyr meta where the honest to god same 12-15 champions were always played while the other like 10 actually broken champs were perma banned 100%. Calling it boring would be a genuine understatement that shit was literally mind numbing to watch. Riot let that meta go on from Jan to MSI, they simply do not care whats boring and what isn't.

Also a meta change in Jan should've been expected it shouldn't be big news or anything, the issue is that teams ended up considering that there wasn't gonna be another meta change since its late into Jan. idk why Riot wasn't vocal about this since they usually would be back in LoL though, not a lot of openness to the community going on

#10
cartixuzi
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cartixuzi [#9]

The current meta isn't being changed because it's boring, it's being changed because it's been the staple for far too long now. If this wasn't the case then there would've been a meta change last year before Masters or Champs, two of the biggest events the game can offer, to make up a meta that's priorities individual skill more to make it more exciting or smth. Riot don't purposely change the meta to make it more exciting, they usually only do it for the sake of change whether ppl agree with it or not.

Back in the first half of 2021, LoL was in the most stale as fuck meta that has ever graced the game which was the Udyr meta where the honest to god same 12-15 champions were always played while the other like 10 actually broken champs were perma banned 100%. Calling it boring would be a genuine understatement that shit was literally mind numbing to watch. Riot let that meta go on from Jan to MSI, they simply do not care whats boring and what isn't.

Also a meta change in Jan should've been expected it shouldn't be big news or anything, the issue is that teams ended up considering that there wasn't gonna be another meta change since its late into Jan. idk why Riot wasn't vocal about this since they usually would be back in LoL though, not a lot of openness to the community going on

just to further clarify it, this practice of last second meta changes isn't normal in LoL at all and it would be receiving even more hate over there, like a lot more.

#11
miniature
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cartixuzi [#9]

The current meta isn't being changed because it's boring, it's being changed because it's been the staple for far too long now. If this wasn't the case then there would've been a meta change last year before Masters or Champs, two of the biggest events the game can offer, to make up a meta that's priorities individual skill more to make it more exciting or smth. Riot don't purposely change the meta to make it more exciting, they usually only do it for the sake of change whether ppl agree with it or not.

Back in the first half of 2021, LoL was in the most stale as fuck meta that has ever graced the game which was the Udyr meta where the honest to god same 12-15 champions were always played while the other like 10 actually broken champs were perma banned 100%. Calling it boring would be a genuine understatement that shit was literally mind numbing to watch. Riot let that meta go on from Jan to MSI, they simply do not care whats boring and what isn't.

Also a meta change in Jan should've been expected it shouldn't be big news or anything, the issue is that teams ended up considering that there wasn't gonna be another meta change since its late into Jan. idk why Riot wasn't vocal about this since they usually would be back in LoL though, not a lot of openness to the community going on

The OG jett and Prime Chamber meta both were drastically longer im pretty sure but as far as business strategy goes-

If this wasn't the case then there would've been a meta change last year before Masters or Champs, two of the biggest events the game can offer, to make up a meta that's priorities individual skill more to make it more exciting or smth.

That would be atrocious optics. Teams don't have time to build a storyline of untouchable perfection but they have time to build a storyline people can follow. Throwing massive changes that nuke those storylines would never happen mid-season like this unless that something was somehow more detrimental to the game

edit: also the purpose of this post is that they used what happened with league as a series of events to prevent not copy. League is what it is now, theres not really an opportunity to change it. Also their acad system is an example of something they said "nope. never again" bc players get trapped in league and never get to move up

#12
geospliced
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Thank you for taking your time to write this, miniature. I enjoyed reading your insights and I think you make some very valid points. Good job!

#13
miniature
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geospliced [#12]

Thank you for taking your time to write this, miniature. I enjoyed reading your insights and I think you make some very valid points. Good job!

<3

#14
cartixuzi
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miniature [#11]

The OG jett and Prime Chamber meta both were drastically longer im pretty sure but as far as business strategy goes-

If this wasn't the case then there would've been a meta change last year before Masters or Champs, two of the biggest events the game can offer, to make up a meta that's priorities individual skill more to make it more exciting or smth.

That would be atrocious optics. Teams don't have time to build a storyline of untouchable perfection but they have time to build a storyline people can follow. Throwing massive changes that nuke those storylines would never happen mid-season like this unless that something was somehow more detrimental to the game

edit: also the purpose of this post is that they used what happened with league as a series of events to prevent not copy. League is what it is now, theres not really an opportunity to change it. Also their acad system is an example of something they said "nope. never again" bc players get trapped in league and never get to move up

no those storylines are still gonna be ok I can promise you that. Like in LoL, meta changes are pretty common before MSI and especially Worlds, that Udyr meta was just a quick example of Riot not caving in if a meta feels boring or not, like that whole Udyr ordeal only came to be in Jan whereas some metas that carry over from the preseason get gutted during MSI or sometimes in the middle of a split.

#15
lyprum
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Would you expect Ascent to be out of the map pool soon or reworked cuz of the stale meta

#16
miniature
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cartixuzi [#14]

no those storylines are still gonna be ok I can promise you that. Like in LoL, meta changes are pretty common before MSI and especially Worlds, that Udyr meta was just a quick example of Riot not caving in if a meta feels boring or not, like that whole Udyr ordeal only came to be in Jan whereas some metas that carry over from the preseason get gutted during MSI or sometimes in the middle of a split.

I think the consistency of skill expression in val is not the same as League tho. Purely aim wise, its very hard to just universally aim diff starting at immortal. U cant full int and run thru ranked games consistently dropping 40, 1 part is the strength of util another is how hard it can be to wide swing a disadvantaged fight.

Most peoples' immediate reaction to that is that pro players run through ranked players on [agent] to radiant runs all the time. That's not what I'm addressing. I'm addressing the fact that, to quote a franchise player I was talking to earlier, "demon1 can lose an aim duel to an immortal 1." (talking about the capability not the liklihood) It really isnt a thing in other esports.

Now to me, the real skill expression rn is in movement style ON TOP OF your aim, knowing exactly how to peek things was something I got very good at in cs and it got me to fpl/mdl-and yet i wouldnt even look ok compared to a top pro. We aren't at a point that pros can consistently judge EXACTLY how to peek for every fight. That is where you see pros like something, Yay on chamber, Derke ish-more alfajaer, thats where they farm. But if they do it incorrectly, the other person has to miss for them to win.

#17
miniature
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lyprum [#15]

Would you expect Ascent to be out of the map pool soon or reworked cuz of the stale meta

Ascent is kind of a prime example of why I think a lot of their decision making is based around excitement. We all consider the agent pick meta stale as can be for the map, but its really not BORING you know? At top level its usually a lot of exciting first picks or explosive chaotic teamfights.

I still think its up next as far as reworks but theres a reason that map has had ACTUALLY nothing change.

#18
hell_on_earth
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miniature [#7]

Exactly. I think if you ask any pro what agent is the most overpowered(at least on paper), I would expect almost unanimously to hear "Yoru"
The reason he isnt seen much in pro play is bc the current meta, if you look at FNATIC or LOUD, their duelist is used as a macro tool A LOT, set them up and push them into him or punish them by being stacked. Yoru is inherently a creative-"I have to make decisions on the fly" agent which he has every tool he needs to do that well, but its a lot less plug and play which means theres a ton of work involved to have him succeed

the reason yoru isnt seen in pro play much is his entry is dogshit. im not sure if ure trolling with this post lmfao

#19
cartixuzi
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miniature [#16]

I think the consistency of skill expression in val is not the same as League tho. Purely aim wise, its very hard to just universally aim diff starting at immortal. U cant full int and run thru ranked games consistently dropping 40, 1 part is the strength of util another is how hard it can be to wide swing a disadvantaged fight.

Most peoples' immediate reaction to that is that pro players run through ranked players on [agent] to radiant runs all the time. That's not what I'm addressing. I'm addressing the fact that, to quote a franchise player I was talking to earlier, "demon1 can lose an aim duel to an immortal 1." (talking about the capability not the liklihood) It really isnt a thing in other esports.

Now to me, the real skill expression rn is in movement style ON TOP OF your aim, knowing exactly how to peek things was something I got very good at in cs and it got me to fpl/mdl-and yet i wouldnt even look ok compared to a top pro. We aren't at a point that pros can consistently judge EXACTLY how to peek for every fight. That is where you see pros like something, Yay on chamber, Derke ish-more alfajaer, thats where they farm. But if they do it incorrectly, the other person has to miss for them to win.

I'm comparing Val to League because you brought up the comparison yourself though, I was just going off of that. I don't quite get what you're talking about here too, sry

#20
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hell_on_earth [#18]

the reason yoru isnt seen in pro play much is his entry is dogshit. im not sure if ure trolling with this post lmfao

2 parts in my response to this after saying out right, yes his direct solo entry is pretty weak.

1, i dont think theres a good comprehension of how often you REALLY need that jett dash into smoke combo in order to get into a site. Raze is the most popular duelist rn and she literally just flies at people with a flash(rip skye raze combo). On top of that anyway u have options with fake smokes on astra, teammate utility in general-you're really not dry-dashing at peoples face very often just bc u have a smoke and u might live long enough to get ur gun out.

2, im not sure you understood the explanation of why he doesnt work in plug and play.

if you look at FNATIC or LOUD, their duelist is used as a macro tool

I am saying yoru is an incredibly inconsistent macro tool for what you would traditionally use a jett/chamber awp for. BUT, he has a fucking genuinely unexplainable amount of potential value with the rest of his kit. He singlehandedly counters everything about kj. He is on the other bombsite within a singular second. He can be an unkillable drone for 12 seconds. He can flash for himself and teammates. He enables fake info, and honestly just fakes in general. He can find viper in her ult, he can throw util from his ult in kayo ult, he can negate a kj ult clearing space by tping back in.

#21
miniature
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cartixuzi [#19]

I'm comparing Val to League because you brought up the comparison yourself though, I was just going off of that. I don't quite get what you're talking about here too, sry

Things won't affect the storylines in league as much bc whatever changes are made or champs put into meta pick status, the players capability of expressing that isnt FUNDAMENTALLY affected in a way that that single comparison fits for val.

yes, different champs just like agents enable different pop off potential, but what you are PHYSICALLY CAPABLE OF on chamber is not the same as sage, or even jett. TTK matters a lot in a specific topic like this. There's no champ in league that will direct 1v5 like prime chamber could without people really even getting to aim back, u could prefire but that deag pullout is insane.

i could just be biased here

#22
cartixuzi
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miniature [#21]

Things won't affect the storylines in league as much bc whatever changes are made or champs put into meta pick status, the players capability of expressing that isnt FUNDAMENTALLY affected in a way that that single comparison fits for val.

yes, different champs just like agents enable different pop off potential, but what you are PHYSICALLY CAPABLE OF on chamber is not the same as sage, or even jett. TTK matters a lot in a specific topic like this. There's no champ in league that will direct 1v5 like prime chamber could without people really even getting to aim back, u could prefire but that deag pullout is insane.

i could just be biased here

well, in terms of the dominance prime chamber had, theres already been a few champs like that like release Aphelios which was like 2x as strong. I get that you're not really that knowledgeable in League but pretty much every newly released champ after like 2018 or something had the same sort of dominance prime Chamber had. Viego, Ksante, Gwen, Zeri, etc etc etc.

Storylines are indeed affected by shit like this too, a lot more than you think, and fundamentally they are different compared to what was the norm. Zeri introduced a completely new playstyle for ADCs that was literally the most broken shit you could play on the role in forever that was impossible to pull off on other champs.

#23
miniature
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cartixuzi [#22]

well, in terms of the dominance prime chamber had, theres already been a few champs like that like release Aphelios which was like 2x as strong. I get that you're not really that knowledgeable in League but pretty much every newly released champ after like 2018 or something had the same sort of dominance prime Chamber had. Viego, Ksante, Gwen, Zeri, etc etc etc.

Storylines are indeed affected by shit like this too, a lot more than you think, and fundamentally they are different compared to what was the norm. Zeri introduced a completely new playstyle for ADCs that was literally the most broken shit you could play on the role in forever that was impossible to pull off on other champs.

then im wrong, and you have a good point, not my expertise

#24
cartixuzi
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miniature [#23]

then im wrong, and you have a good point, not my expertise

i mean its understandable but your main point doesnt really need a comparison anyways so its whatever

#25
hell_on_earth
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miniature [#20]

2 parts in my response to this after saying out right, yes his direct solo entry is pretty weak.

1, i dont think theres a good comprehension of how often you REALLY need that jett dash into smoke combo in order to get into a site. Raze is the most popular duelist rn and she literally just flies at people with a flash(rip skye raze combo). On top of that anyway u have options with fake smokes on astra, teammate utility in general-you're really not dry-dashing at peoples face very often just bc u have a smoke and u might live long enough to get ur gun out.

2, im not sure you understood the explanation of why he doesnt work in plug and play.

if you look at FNATIC or LOUD, their duelist is used as a macro tool

I am saying yoru is an incredibly inconsistent macro tool for what you would traditionally use a jett/chamber awp for. BUT, he has a fucking genuinely unexplainable amount of potential value with the rest of his kit. He singlehandedly counters everything about kj. He is on the other bombsite within a singular second. He can be an unkillable drone for 12 seconds. He can flash for himself and teammates. He enables fake info, and honestly just fakes in general. He can find viper in her ult, he can throw util from his ult in kayo ult, he can negate a kj ult clearing space by tping back in.

im not sure u understand valorant at all lil bro. no yoru fanboy does thats for sure

#26
miniature
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cartixuzi [#24]

i mean its understandable but your main point doesnt really need a comparison anyways so its whatever

nah your responses are what i was hoping to get as far as a league perspective in this thread. It's just better for the thread if I also defend my point a bit

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