I feel like T1 can clutch it out, but it will be tough imo. Have them like 60-40 rn.

Yeah yeah, but who do you think is going to win though? It's looking like a really close game.

Not a hater and I think he's good, but I wouldn't say he's a top of the class duelist though. He looks like one of the weaker parts of T1 imo.

Putting words in my mouth after saying I do that is hypocritical, but whatever makes you happy ig. Also, who do you think is winning this match?

Cool, believe what you want to. We can't convince each other, it's all good.

IS THIS YOUR GOAT????

Ok here

"Besides champs, edg were a very poor team in terms of results before that. If you are basing the list off recency, then in no world does he deserve a spot over jawg and buzz like you claim he does. If you're basing the list off all time, then he doesn't deserve a spot over them even more so."

Also, I'm not a fan of KK, I just defend slander against players. I would do the same for Buzz or any other player unless I really dislike them personally.

And look up what longevity means, I don't wanna debate with someone who doesn't even know what that means.

So you're assuming that I'm a fan because of what I've been saying, but I can't assume you think accolades matter based on what you've been saying? Little hypocritical no? And you were mentioning EDG's poor team results when we were talking about KK individual performance, so I was inferring that you thought that accolades had an impact on individual standing. That is completely reasonable. What isn't is you saying that me defending a player that you think isn't even close to Buzz means I'm a fan. If anything, you're bias is clearly on display during this argument.

Showing you can help produce winning results is extremely important. Also, I said he has longevity because he's been playing longer, not better. That's it. I don't think you know what longevity is, you should search it up. And by recently, I mean he's played better in this one tournament lol, that's it.

ayeeeeee

Bro got one guyed

he's been positive in one map so far, he needs to lock tf in for map 5

Never seen a harder team carry in my life holy

Bro you literally said it was strange I consider it to be close between KK and Buzz what words am I putting in your mouth? And you know what's funny, the fact that I said I didn't like KK that much and you're calling me a KK fan. Like aren't you literally putting words in my mouth?

I'm not fumbling around my words, longetivity and recent performances aren't even close to the only factors in determining how good a player is all time lol. He only has longetivity because he's been playing longer, not because he's been playing better. KangKang ever since he's joined the international scene has been playing better overall compared to Buzz. Not only that, Kangkang has a much higher peak than Buzz who hasn't won shit. That is what pushes KangKang over Buzz imo.

ik his ass just loves getting dicked down by G2

jawgemo and trent are taking turns giving him back shots

I just know bro just starts twerking when he gets in an argument

MY NA GOAT

All I'm saying is that Buzz has never produced winning results while KK has and I think that's quite important. Most of what you are listing involves longetivity and I think that's like the only thing he's got over KK. And it's not like EDG has never been competitive before lol. If you are looking at all time, then Kangkang has been performing well since he's been on the international stage and they were competitive in 2023 Masters as well. The Champs run, in my opinion, pushes him over Buzz on the all time list. You trying to make it seem like it isn't even close is what is strange imo.

Debatable, if you value individual performance more I would say Aspas, but if you value team performance more I would say Jawgemo

Is Jawgemo the GOAT NA player???

When I mentioned recent performances, you were talking about how EDG was performing poorly last year besides champs. So you're clearly implying it does impact an individual's personal standing to an extent, which, I actually agree with. I think winning like one or two masters (preferably two) or a champs is needed to stand a chance with the other top dogs. Also, believe it or not, I'm not really that big of a fan of KK. I just don't like it when people take a recent performance of a player as a chance to say he's worse than he actually is.

If anything, I'm an Aspas glazer and I think that KK was the better duelist in Champs.

You are clearly being biased. There is no clear player ahead unless you include accolades, which you want to do. Then there is a clear player ahead and it's KK. What has buzz won? Even if he wins this masters, that's not equal to a champs at all. I like Buzz, but he has not proved himself to be a top 5 duelist of all time.

All time, I would say he definitely deserves a spot over buzz. You're telling me EDG wasn't doing that great last year without champs but what has Buzz won on his teams like ever? Even if he does win this masters, that's still doesn't equate to winning Champs like at all. And KK has been performing good ever since he's arrived on the international scene just like Buzz has (although Buzz has been doing it for longer) so idk how there's no world where buzz is below KK on the all time list. If anything, if you want to include team accolades like you said you do, there's no world Buzz is above KK. With Jawg, honestly maybe. Both have champs, both have played well internationally, and both have been recently been playing kinda mid. I think it's debatable and there is defintiely not "no world" where KK isn't above Jawg lol.

No

I would argue texture and KK deserve to be there over Jawg and Buzz, but I digress. It's an opinion based tier list anyways, so ig there's no point in judging. All I'm saying is Kangkang had a very very strong argument for being the best duelist last year and now one mid tournament has people saying he isn't top 5. If that isn't recency bias, idk what is.

Cool, I think we can just agree to disagree me and you must just not be seeing the same things ig.

At least in the entirety of Split that was the only round where he "baited" his teammates and I just reviewed all the attack rounds on Split. No matter what, your point about baiting is still wrong as he's still taking the most first fights. Regardless, what comms vid are you talking about that shows that it's not the team gameplan, but rather his selfish decisions forcing the team to play that way?

That's literally what I'm saying. Putting Buzz up there that high is recency bias, but putting Jawg up there doesn't make sense unless you look at performances past his recent performance which is anti-recency bias. Therefore, his logic for the list is contradictory. I might have worded it weird, but my statements aren't contradictory at all.

I'm literally saying he's not an impactful entry, I don't think you're reading what I'm saying. I'm just saying he's not baiting. I'm not trying to always excuse KK poor play or anything like that, the one round on Split that looked like he could been the player to blame was the 6-4 round which looks like it could have been a miscomm. That's literally it. You've mentioned basically only that round when it's more of an outlier if anything. Every other round, the way he played looked like it was by design/the team's game plan. Not saying that game plan worked out, but just that that's how they set it up. So all I'm saying is that if you want to blame him taking first duels in mid instead of site, you should be mostly blaming the strats EDG set up on attack instead of putting most of it on KK. KK has never been scared to hard entry on to site, if he's taking first duel mid then it's likely by design. Him struggling to win duels is another thing entirely though.

I'm not confused at all, you're argument just lacks substance.

"Your mistake here is thinking that having a gameplay style of pumping resources into him to take duels with cracked aim and entrying are mutually exclusive"

I do not think that, my whole argument here is that he has been taking first fights and that literally means that he is not baiting. This was his worst series, yet he still had a FK FD of 15 19 (he took 34 first duels, the most out of any player in the series), and when I watched him during the game, he did not shy away from his taking the first duel at all. My point is that whether he took the first duel or not or played passive and where he took the first duel was based on the game plan and team's decision 99 percent of the time.

To back up this argument, I looked at his worst map Split and the round you were talking about. I looked at all the attack rounds and the only round where he wasn't opping and decided to play a passive role were 6 - 3 and 6 - 4 on Split where the omen entried instead of him. Having the omen entry at 6 - 3 seemed to be part of the team's game plan as KK and Chichoo's role was to divert attention to mid and A and leave only one or two players looking at site. But let's look at the round you were talking about, 6 - 4, which I actually believe to be a team communication issue more than anything (so not just KK fault, but the entire team's fault). I think the team was deciding whether or not they wanted to rotate after the first player got picked off and the communication on whether they were going to execute or not resulted in a half-assed play that led to smoggy dying and the team getting picked apart at mid after. Besides these two rounds, KK was being super aggressive in taking first duels whenever he wasn't opping, so I refuse to believe you truly think that happened because he was afraid to enter site or baiting for stats. Even if you do want to blame most of round 6 - 4 on him being too passive, that's only one round; nitpicking these rounds does not mean that Kangkang has an instalock jett baiting playstyle like you said he does. It's better to look at his overall willingness to entry and take the first duel as well as the overall game plan of the team to determine whether he is baiting or not and just by using my eyes and analyzing the rounds I can tell he is not.

I already mentioned you saying that. You didn't fully get my last question. What you are saying isn't a knack on KK unless you believe that the game plan is like this because he's afraid to or can't enter site. Which, in that case, I wholeheartedly disagree, because KK has shown that he can hard entry for his team several times before. Once again, if you believe it's just the team's gameplan and not the fault of KK why mention it in your argument that he's overrated?

You said it yourself, he's not baiting, he's just not getting as many site entries (which is also not solely his fault). There was literally no need to say he has a "very instalock baiting jett gameplay style" when you don't even agree with that yourself. Taking the first fight, no matter where it is, is not baiting (especially if it's part of the game plan). Also, that's less of a KK issue and more of a team game plan issue. You even said it yourself, that it's "not right or wrong", so why even mention it if it doesn't benefit your argument that KK is overrated?

This top 5 has a lot of contradictions. First of all, if you are putting buzz above KK, then the list is clearly based on recency bias. But then, even if you have recency bias, it would also make no sense to put Jawgemo above KK who has been performing even worse than KK has this event. You are clearly reaching. Kangkang is on the same tier as aspas, texture, and derke and any of those 4 can be switched around and debated to be better than the other.

Also, you mentioned that Chichoo is arguably the best player in the world right now. I would have to disagree. I need to see him preform this well in a few more tournaments for him to be considered that. He's an amazing player as he has always played well in previous tournaments, but in this one he popped off extra hard and I'm not sure that can be maintained.

When I'm in a falling for 0/10 ragebait competition and my opponents are Rob Moore and yabadabadoo

Can't wait to see this become drama when bro becomes cracked in tier 1

I think you are really underrating smoggy; he hasn't had the best showing in this tournament, but I would say he's up there with trexx, less, derke, and kangkang. His rifle is one of the best itw from what I've seen the past few years. I would also say nobody is > kicks and that chichoo is > sayf.

I would say Edg players have better individual mechanics

I don't think they are individually better than Vit but you must be watching G2 with your eyes closed to say that. Everyone on that team are shooters even the igl.

it terms of talent, narrate and zekken are the clear best. JohnQT should also be kept as he is honestly one of the best igls and can shoot back decently. Bang has been playing mid, but he has the mechanics I think it's worth keeping him. Zellsis has been one of the worst players in kick off and is just there for "vibes". Good util though ig.

I do think vibes are important, but Zellsis literally can't keep up.

slow down there chichoo has still been the best in the tournament so far, but nats is looking fucking cracked right now

idek if liquid fans wanna watch liquid anymore

imo he's the best talent on Sen, but he lowkey might be a vibe killer. Seems to tilt very easily.

chichoo has been the best so far with derke not too far behind imo

stopped reading after seeing flair

EDG and Vit are on another level from G2 and DRX who are on another level from the rest of the teams

They have many problems, but aim is not one of them. They can shoot, but their decision making is pretty bad overall.

I think a big part of why Valorant is entertaining to watch for me is because each of the region's top teams are competitive with each other. If one region dominated it would be boring imo.

I think trace might surprise a lot of people tomorrow.

I would say just toxic not shit. BabyJ performed like the second best on 100T in the two games he did play and has played very very well in Tier 2.

I really hope Nrg didn't drop him because Verno hurt their player's feelings