Why is T1 getting over 30 points for every win, and TSM is getting like between 9 and 12? Even when both teams beat the same opponent 2-0? For instance T1 just beat Immortals 2-0 and gained 35 points for it, While TSM just beat them the day before 2-0 with an even bigger map score win and only gained 14 points for an even larger win? That's a MASSIVE discrepancy and it doesnt end there, all of T1's recent wins are over 30 points. There is either something massively wrong with the formula or there is some massive favoritism going on lol
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Something wrong with the rankings?
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in broad strokes #2 is right, but your point about map win margin is on the mark.
+/- gain currently factors in match win margin (e.g. 2-0 vs 2-1 in a bo3), but not map win margin (13-0 vs 13-12), which I plan on implementing soon.
TSM's relatively small gains are to be expected given that they're the highest rated team in the system at the moment, but T1's big jumps are because they've been inactive for the past month and thus have been stuck close to the initial 1500 rating every team starts at. in the long run this shouldn't matter much, but in the initial stages of the scene a possible remedy could be to manually give clearly "good" teams a slightly higher initial rating.
T1 is the 2nd ranked team in NA to TSM's 1st place rank. You really think its ok for the 2nd best team to gain 35 points for winning with less margin of victory over the same team 1 day after the 1st place team gets only 14 points for it?
I mean, I can see TSM getting 14 and T1 getting like 15 or 16 maybe.. even that's odd, but 35 to 14?? and they won by less of a round margin?
If that is being justified then you can just throw all these rankings out because they are meaningless lmao
DT_RAW [#4]T1 is the 2nd ranked team in NA to TSM's 1st place rank. You really think its ok for the 2nd best team to gain 35 points for winning with less margin of victory over the same team 1 day after the 1st place team gets only 14 points for it?
I mean, I can see TSM getting 14 and T1 getting like 15 or 16 maybe.. even that's odd, but 35 to 14?? and they won by less of a round margin?
If that is being justified then you can just throw all these rankings out because they are meaningless lmao
You're taking only the NA ranking and not the world
DT_RAW [#4]T1 is the 2nd ranked team in NA to TSM's 1st place rank. You really think its ok for the 2nd best team to gain 35 points for winning with less margin of victory over the same team 1 day after the 1st place team gets only 14 points for it?
I mean, I can see TSM getting 14 and T1 getting like 15 or 16 maybe.. even that's odd, but 35 to 14?? and they won by less of a round margin?
If that is being justified then you can just throw all these rankings out because they are meaningless lmao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system#Performance_rating
enigma [#3]in broad strokes #2 is right, but your point about map win margin is on the mark.
+/- gain currently factors in match win margin (e.g. 2-0 vs 2-1 in a bo3), but not map win margin (13-0 vs 13-12), which I plan on implementing soon.
TSM's relatively small gains are to be expected given that they're the highest rated team in the system at the moment, but T1's big jumps are because they've been inactive for the past month and thus have been stuck close to the initial 1500 rating every team starts at. in the long run this shouldn't matter much, but in the initial stages of the scene a possible remedy could be to manually give clearly "good" teams a slightly higher initial rating.
This makes a bit more sense, but I still dont see how a 34 to 15 difference is called for, that more than double the points gained, on top of theoretically, Immortals ranking is lower when T1 beat them compared to TSM beating them because they had already accrued the loss from the TSM game.
I get what you are saying in that T1 didnt have a lot of games so its a catch up of sorts, but that still doesn't seem right. As you said maybe a higher baseline start? But I still dont think you should get more points for wins just because you have less games played. All of their recent wins are in the mid 30s for points while TSM is getting anywhere from 6-12, at what point does T1 start getting 6-12 points for a win?
Matheusyamada [#5]You're taking only the NA ranking and not the world
because they are only playing NA teams.. I havent looked as closely into the EU rankings to see if this is happening too for their region, as most of their teams are way more active than T1 has been, I doubt the discrepancy is that large in EU teams
bonzo [#6]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system#Performance_rating
I know what ELO rating is
DT_RAW [#7]This makes a bit more sense, but I still dont see how a 34 to 15 difference is called for, that more than double the points gained, on top of theoretically, Immortals ranking is lower when T1 beat them compared to TSM beating them because they had already accrued the loss from the TSM game.
I get what you are saying in that T1 didnt have a lot of games so its a catch up of sorts, but that still doesn't seem right. As you said maybe a higher baseline start? But I still dont think you should get more points for wins just because you have less games played. All of their recent wins are in the mid 30s for points while TSM is getting anywhere from 6-12, at what point does T1 start getting 6-12 points for a win?
i'll do a quick update to factor in round differential before today's NA matches and see how that impacts things
DT_RAW [#8]because they are only playing NA teams.. I havent looked as closely into the EU rankings to see if this is happening too for their region, as most of their teams are way more active than T1 has been, I doubt the discrepancy is that large in EU teams
in the EU has championship almost every week, so there is this differentiates
DT_RAW [#4]T1 is the 2nd ranked team in NA to TSM's 1st place rank. You really think its ok for the 2nd best team to gain 35 points for winning with less margin of victory over the same team 1 day after the 1st place team gets only 14 points for it?
I mean, I can see TSM getting 14 and T1 getting like 15 or 16 maybe.. even that's odd, but 35 to 14?? and they won by less of a round margin?
If that is being justified then you can just throw all these rankings out because they are meaningless lmao
I guess I understand more if at some point the points start to stabilize and become less as teams gain more games, it just seems a bit out of whack for how much more they are getting, but thanks for taking the time to break it down a bit. Maybe some small adjustments like you mentioned would help some.
enigma [#10]i'll do a quick update to factor in round differential before today's NA matches and see how that impacts things
got ya,
So at around what point does a team like T1 or others with less games start earning the same amount for wins as a team like TSM? It just seems its over inflated to help catch them up too quickly and doesnt reward the team that has been playing lots of games and winning them all.
I do get the point of helping catch a team that is clearly better than their score up, it just seems it may be doing that a bit too well
DT_RAW [#13]I guess I understand more if at some point the points start to stabilize and become less as teams gain more games, it just seems a bit out of whack for how much more they are getting, but thanks for taking the time to break it down a bit. Maybe some small adjustments like you mentioned would help some.
there are obvious limitations of an elo system in a team game with limited data so all of your criticism is very valid (and appreciated)
enigma [#10]i'll do a quick update to factor in round differential before today's NA matches and see how that impacts things
also, can we talk about T1 beating team ninja and getting 29 points lol? that was a team thrown together that isnt even a real team ...
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