SHOULD GE TRY YOMAN AS IGL??

#37

Dreoxx

Frags

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yeah, its not a popular take, but I feel like there was a reason to why he wasn't chosen (albeit being rumored) for tier 1 competition over his competitors in the past.

if you compare him to any KR tier 1 team, he's underwhelming. maybe viable in JP tier 1?

also I don't want to be rude but it's kind of hard to understand your paragraph because I don't know when your sentences are starting and ending, I get that English might not be your primary/comfortable language.

could you please separate your points? NTH were good by all means, but I don't think they had any standout wins to prove joxjo's place in tier 1. nth's win over xia doesn't really mean much, especially since xia placed last in Copenhagen and generally looked really bad 😭 them beating "prime" zeta wasn't really prime, since zeta never really came back to that standard after their cinderlla run (3rd in M1), they were already in their downfall iirc (not to mention that TENNN had an usually off-game with -24 in four maps). also nth got demolished and outcalled heavily by actual contenders in M2 Copenhagen including FPX (joxjo was good mechanically, just that his calls didn't work and they ended up getting 2-0d pretty fast) and DRX especially (nth got 2-0d fast, including a 1-13 game where he went 2/13/3 and had poor calling).

its also important to mention that joxjo definitely got better, but using examples of his past accolades wouldn't help too much. i would actually argue that his form right now justifies your point better; he's been fragging and igling, but not calling to the extent of t1 igls. if you were to disregard his calling and instead just force him to play mechanically and delegate his IGL role to another player, there would be a whole list of KR and even JP talent that would be prioritized by the VCT franchised teams first. thus, its valid to say that joxjo is valuable because he can frag and igl, but his igling isn't top-tier, and if you take away his igling, his fragging abilities are also not significant compared to other upcoming talent, even when considering other recon initiator players in APAC.

#38

koromast

Frags

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but what you base to say he isnt a tier 1 ready igl? he wins most local shit with mid teams (yeah i really mean it he has never won a event while having a super team) he also has a lot of experience while calling on both english and korean. As you said he can frag and igl but thats not the only relevant thing, his agent pull is big so he would work on any team and you cant really call him below teir 1 level because he has beated tier 1 igls before with slightly worse teams.

The point of xeta and xerxia wasnt that xerxia and zeta are top teams itw, the point is that they had proven igls and better teams individually so the only reason you can pull up a win like that is if your igl is really good and joxjo has always been a good caller in my books, a unproven kr igl with 2 or 3 super talents and other above average players on their teams doesnt surprise me as much as joxjo´s merits (btw yoman is still better than joxjo imo i was not referring to him but in terms of pacific igls in general he should be on tier 1 at this point)

#41

Dreoxx

Frags

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im not going to lie, i also think vlr overrated yoman just a bit. i also think yoman could play in tier 1, but I think his time at RA hyped a lot of people up.

i already listed my "base" in his igl and frag abilities. and yes, I think I can still refer to him as below a tier 1 igl. for example, just because XIA beat OPTC in M1 Reykjavik 2022 doesn't mean that Crws > FNS, and that Crws is an elite IGL within t1. I'm using XIA as an example to show that NTH beating XIA with a worse team frankly just doesn't equate to JoXJo being a better IGL than Surf, for example, who has fostered the Thai scene and the best roster through the inception of VALORANT history (X10C, XIA, TLN) and led them to many internationals. Keep in mind that even if NTH had an underwhelming roster, they still had bail (C) and Meteor. This is not mid by any metric, even when meteor wasn't playing at his peak.

Yes, his agent pool is "big," but this doesn't mean that he's good at them, or has played them enough. I don't think his agent pool is good, since 40% of his games played all-time is breach, and around 75% being the typical initiator player's agents (breach, kayo, skye, fade). This is not a good sign of flexibility. Refer to true flexes like Rb, Victor, or f0rsakeN (all three have spent a considerable time on initiator, although Victor's case is unique since crashies was their main initiator). What these three have in common define what composes of a player that demonstrates GOOD flexibility: consistency (most of their agents are positive in rating and above average in KAST%), impact (you can visually see their impact within rosters that allows others to play comfort picks (e.g. Jinggg able to play OTP raze while f0rsakeN and d4v41 covers the agent pool), and variety (different roles can be played with average or above average proficiency). Therefore, I can't agree with you saying that his agent pool is qualified.

also in what way did I say that "xerxia and zeta are top teams itw?" in fact I implied the opposite!

however, I will respect JoXJo for being fluent in Korean, and being able to communicate in JP/EN. codeswitching is HARD, and that's a merit that I will give him all the credit for.