EMEA COME | VLR.gg

#203

kskm

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you did not refute a single argument, as i previously mentioned u are just cherry picking articles and googling stuff to see what fits ur narrative. the org that ranks BR higher is no authority on the subject, there are several other orgs which did their study and ranked BR orgs below EU clubs thus ur 1 article does not refute shit. the simple fact that most BR players will sell their families to play in EU shows which is better and the complete credit goes to EU for being able to maintain that credibility. No one serious would enter and play for a BR club. the whole deal is skewed and benefits BR more than EU as players like Neymar earn their living in EU and go and invest back in BR. Also funny how u even mention Flamengo is 18th as if that makes any sense - there are other things in that article that u could've picked up like "Flamengo spends 1 mil more than Aston Villa" "There are only 3 BR clubs in top 50" "BR has 5x population of every EU country but they dont have money to spend in the sport they are crazy about" -- see classic example of u cherry picking shit to build a narrative but its a failed attempt as I said - you are fooling no one but yourself. Acting as if you are presenting facts and not using personal experience to build an argument is just a farce, you cannot seriously believe what you are typing. To give a better perspective, Cricket is a game which is crazy amongst British colonies - guess which country has the highest paying cricket clubs? Its not England or Australia or any other developed country - but its India followed by Pakistan - two underdeveloped countries run the sport they are crazy about - something BR can learn about. (OMG how does an American know this? Nationality has nothing to do with knowledge)

There is no benevolence from BR - the players dont seek a permission from their government or fanatic jingoists like you before they move out and seek better opportunities in EU. Here EU provides them with the respect they deserve and BR just lets it happen cause they earn some money out of it. It is EU that provides these guys with the respect and facilities - nobody would care if all the BR folks just sit home and play in their own leagues. The world will not miss a thing. Again the only reason EU clubs reach out to them is because they are not xenophobic and wish to nurture, train and THEN use the talent available - worldwide. These are facts not opinions.

there is nothing new here, i already said multiple times it is not written in stone that every player will seek out for competitiveness over money.
Jingoism is the perfect word to describe to ur original post - it reeks of some sort of self-congratulatory message to urself and fellow BR for producing 5 players compared to 2 or 3 by Spain or Germany when u have 5x their population. You have absolutely no clue what you are yapping about and it is feeling like I am talking to an AI at this point. I am well aware of every word that I have used and definitely have a better understanding of those words than you.

LMFAO You have absolutely no fucking idea. How can you be a Brazilian and not know that BR has always been traditionally protectionist state - it levies heavy taxes on goods produced elsewhere and constantly asks companies like the Automobile ones to setup their factories locally. One good example is how iphones cost 50% more in BR compared to US - yet you dont have a single company which can compete with Apple - an American company. I am sure everyone who is rich in BR just uses an iphone. BR actively participates in protectionist policies when it comes to trade but still fails to produce enough industries to rival international competition - unlike countries like China which actually has solid alternatives. You are forced to support a variety of FOREIGN services like Valve, Riot Games, Apple, Google, Microsoft and 100000s of other areas because you DONT have a LOCAL OPTION. A chinese guy can come upto u and say "oh u just use Google an American service because u dont have something like Baido - chinese app developed by CN?" - that question is not sincere - it is self congratulatory and reeks of arrogance and fails to understand that the world is dependent and supporting foreign stuff is inevitable. AGAIN - Having 5X the population of single EU states and only 5-6 more serious valorant players than them is not even something to be proud of.

#205

Astroman77

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I refuted several of your arguments with data and sources so that you can seek knowledge and leave ignorance behind. You only use fallacies that anyone without even the slightest knowledge of football could use. Your entire thinking is based on ideas and concepts rooted in mistaken beliefs. You saying that "there are other organizations that classify BR clubs as less competitive than those in the EU" is a desperate attempt on your part to find something that fits your narrative (which you accuse me of doing). The fact is: IFFHS is an entity recognized by FIFA that operates in world football by collecting data and presenting statistics since 1984, with headquarters in Germany. Yes, headquartered in Europe! (https://www.iffhs.com/aboutIffhs) You saying that "there are others" doesn't refute a single statistical number presented. Nor does it discredit the entire work of a serious company that has been operating in football for decades. Arguments like "Europe pays more," "Brazilians benefit," "no one would leave the EU to play in Brazil" are half-truths based on heuristics. Scarecrows that are very easy to refute: "Europe pays more" - Europe is a continent that encompasses various countries, some of which have no tradition in football and have very weak leagues, much worse (MUCH) than those in Brazil. Example: the leagues of Armenia, Belarus, Lithuania, Finland, Latvia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. And in almost all of these weak and average leagues in Europe, no Brazilian would consider playing - low competitiveness, salaries that are not worth it, and little visibility. When you say "Europe pays more," you are referring to the most relevant and well-known leagues in the European continent, which do not encompass even 50% of all the others. The correct thing would be for you to state: On average, the European continent pays less and has low football competitiveness, but in the big and well-known leagues, which are an exception (such as the French, English and Spanish), you can have a higher salary. (https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2023) "Brazilians benefit" - Fallacy + half-truth. Both benefit in the same proportion. Without Brazilian players, European teams would not have a strong league. They NEED to import talent to ensure good audience ($$$$$), competitiveness, and visibility. Not to mention that names like Messi and Neymar, bring more profits to the club with shirt sales than expenses in salaries - as the president of PSG himself has stated. Brazilians can survive perfectly well without having to play in Europe, as they already do - earning millionaire salaries. There is a scientific study (which I know you will not read) explaining how Europe benefits from foreign players (most of them Brazilians) in its strongest leagues. (https://jhk.termedia.pl/pdf-158746-85005?filename=Evaluation%20of%20the%20Playing.pdf) "No one would leave the EU to play in Brazil" - It is a false syllogism. Obviously, you must know that this happens, and I don't even need to prove otherwise (or do I?). Flamengo's own team has former players from Arsenal, Barcelona, Wolfsburg, Chelsea... The premise that no one would leave a strong league that pays a lot to go to a strong league that pays less is partly true. But that cannot make you reach the conclusion that "no one would leave the EU to play in Brazil," especially since, as you have already learned, the European continent is mostly composed of countries with weak football leagues - which makes it completely viable for an Armenian, for example, without space in strong European clubs, to seek visibility in Brazil.
"Also funny how u even mention Flamengo is 18th as if that makes any sense - there are other things in that article that u could've picked up like "Flamengo spends 1 mil more than Aston Villa" "There are only 3 BR clubs in top 50" "BR has 5x population of every EU country but they dont have money to spend in the sport they are crazy about" - Aston Villa is one of the most successful clubs in the history of English football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Villa_F.C.). You saying that "Flamengo spends 1 million more than Aston Villa" could be an argument in my favor simply because Aston Villa is MUCH larger than the average of the 1,500 professional European clubs. Saying that "there are only 3 Brazilian clubs in the top 50" is another argument in my favor - it shows that we have at least 3 clubs above the European average - the Brazilian Serie A has 20 clubs. 3 clubs represent 15% of our league. Brazil does not have 5 times the population of all European countries. Another false statement, as usual. Germany, France, the UK, Turkey, and Italy are quite populous countries. What would it mean to have money to spend on football? I don't understand. We have good stadiums, we have hosted World Cups and Olympics, we are the biggest winners, and we have great players playing in the national championship. I think the money was well spent, you must have mixed feelings with rationality once again. Qatar, Russia, and Brazil were the countries that invested the most in World Cups, including (https://www.suno.com.br/noticias/copa-do-mundo-catar-2022-mais-cara-da-historia/#:~:text=Segundo%20dados%20da%20Front%20Office,US%24%2015%20bilh%C3%B5es%2C%20respectivamente.). The USA were the smallest investors, maybe that's what's missing for you. If you invested more in the MLS by looking to hire good players, and less in sports that nobody plays around the world, like the NFL, you would be more relevant in football. At the very least, you would stop being treated as a joke.
"Again the only reason EU clubs reach out to them is because they are not xenophobic and wish to nurture, train and THEN use the talent available - worldwide. These are facts not opinions." - Another unfounded statement based on beliefs that are not sustainable. It is definitively PROVEN through studies that the talent of foreigners in European clubs increases the performance of the league and that without them, the competitiveness would not be the same (https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29446/w29446.pdf). Not being xenophobic is not a quality at all, it is the duty of every human being capable of using their cognitive functions correctly. Individual talent is the only reason that drives a European scout to cross the Atlantic and seek some signings for the club they work for. It's not like they think, "I'm not xenophobic, now we can move on to part 2." Hahahahahaha. And as you have already learned: Individual talents generate audience and competitiveness, which generate money, which generate visibility and make the league self-sustainable.
"It reeks of some sort of self-congratulatory message to urself and fellow BR for producing 5 players compared to 2 or 3 by Spain or Germany when u have 5x their population." - Brazil does not have 5 times the population of Spain or Germany, it is another false claim (I have lost count of how many fake news you have said). And once again, you use "nationalism" (incorrectly), when you should mention "patriotism" (although there is also no clear correlation) to try to justify why Brazilians prefer to support a team composed mostly of Brazilians. You use some true premises to arrive at a false conclusion. Firstly, if Brazil were a continent and its states were countries, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro would have 12 million and 6 million inhabitants, respectively. Spain alone has 48 million inhabitants. Fact: Mibr, FURIA, and Loud mostly have players born in the "countries" Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. Germany has 84 million inhabitants and cannot gather individual talents to compete with states with a total population of 18 million. I have nothing against it, as I have already said before. The problem is that EMEA fans are forced to treat EU as if it were a country due to the lack of national teams to support.

#207

Astroman77

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There is no alternative. It is understandable to want to defend that it's okay to root for the continent when it's your only option.

Answering the last paragraph: I didn't say that Brazil wasn't protectionist, I think you have problems with comprehension. I said that it wasn't completely protectionist, as it happens in dictatorial and communist regimes, for example, where citizens are truly forced to use only domestic products due to lack of options, and the international industry has no space for growth and development. And that is enough to refute your previous, very poor argument - where you made an irrelevant and out of context comparison about being "forced" to buy products from other countries. No, there are alternatives. Levying taxes and duties is a protectionist measure, but that doesn't make Brazil a 100% protectionist country (I'm being redundant but I think it's necessary). It is a natural measure adopted by several countries to foster national commerce. Here, you wasted a lot of characters just to say something that I already know, you didn't add absolutely anything to the debate.
"You are forced to support a variety of FOREIGN services like Valve, Riot Games, Apple, Google, Microsoft and 100000s of other areas because you DONT have a LOCAL OPTION" - This made me smile, you use the word "support" - as if USING a foreign service is the same thing (or something similar) as truly supporting and rooting for it, trying to link, in a desperate attempt to win the argument, to the fact that European fans SUPPORT teams with foreign players. hahahahahaha. The initial premise is flawed, so the argument could not hold up.
"Having 5X the population of single EU states and only 5-6 more serious valorant players than them is not even something to be proud of" - You finish (oh, I'm surprised!) with a false statement. We don't have 5x the population of European countries. But since this is unfair to you, compare Germany (85 million inhabitants) with São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro (18 million) - most professional players come from these 2 metropolises.

#213

kskm

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cherry picking stats and sources, and then saying you have refuted my claims without actually ever refuting any of them is your whole argument. Just to take the example of IFFHS - it clearly says that Brazil won it for the first time in the history of IFFHS (since 1991) meanwhile EU dominated for all of the previous years.(https://www.iffhs.com/posts/1607). Now if you did your own research on the topic in an unbiased way you could see how you are cherry picking stuff to make an argument - but again fooling nobody but yourself.
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that I have been referring to wealthier western European leagues and not Eastern European countries that hardly qualify for the WC but u write a whole paragraph correcting it like a nerd without making a single point.
Messi and Neymar who came straight outta South America didnt sell any shirts lol.. only after they were provided with the training, nutrition and medical help at centres like La Masia - made them who they are today.

My comment on Aston Villa was in response to how you said big clubs like Real Madrid are an outlier to rest of the Europe -- Aston Villa stands nowhere near RM in terms of wages or trophies won but they spend as much as Flamengo says everything.

What is there not to understand - 3 BR clubs in top 50 - that was the article I was referring to say BR spends nothing in comparison to other big EU leagues. They profit off the selling of their players but hardly invest anything to develop their own leagues. I gave example of how India does it in cricket (another underdeveloped/developing country to make the comparison a little fairer). I aint clicking and reading your link to the World Cup stats because I can 10000% tell u that is cherry picked. Well obviously football is not famous in USA, most people here dont care for the sport or the MLS - it is personal preference and if anything is a joke it is the fact that football is almost a religion in Brazil and yet they lose 7-1 in their home to a country with not even half their population.

Not being xenophobic is definitely a quality - you saying my arguments are unfounded doesnt make them so but only shows your ignorance about the subject. You would understand that sport has historically seen racism and xenophobia - the ability of society to shun their outdated views and look for talent across the globe has never been a necessity, rather an appreciable improvement. For example there was a period when Black people were not allowed to play and even today in some places they have to face racism - do you think the perpetrators of racism feel like "oh we need talent from Black people so we shouldnt be racist" - no they are fine without them but the fact that these societies are slowly moving away from such beliefs and accepting people from diverse background is appreciable. You think oh my BR brothers are so talented that they cannot be ignored - that is not true --- i could make the argument for this paragraph by pasting links and sources but at this point i know i am talking to someone who is just hell bent on proving a false narrative and wont learn that he is wrong. I already know ur supposed refutal is going to be about how this not a fact or its my personal opinion but it aint - i am just too lazy to google shit.
BR population - 200 million population and most of the populated european countries fall around 50-80M - none of them even half of yours yet they dominate in every sport/esport you play is just crazy. The ratio of quality players coming out of these based on their population is definitely praise-worthy and refutes your entire claim of them not being able to produce better talent. You comparing cities with whole countries shows another failed attempt to cherry pick and create false narrative. In every country, the cities are the most populated and present more opportunities of growth so yeah if the rest of BR except 2 cities is extremely backward then thats your problem and exposes another shortcoming of Brazil.
By using a product, you are supporting its business. I clearly gave you example of how countries like China refuse to do this which is why they are developing at a faster pace going toe to toe with US. My point is simple - you wont have local talent or local companies to support through your hard earned money or over the top cheering in every department. If you like basketball and dont have a lebron james, you will cheer for him. if you dont have a local alternative to Apple, you will buy their products. Its ok to do so but asking them with the tone " OH U DONT HAVE THIS? SO U SUPPORT A WHOLE CONTINENT, DIFFERENT COUNTRY? HAHA THATS A SHAME" is just ur stupid attempt to act like a clown and it is apparent from this thread how u got exposed for it. yea yea yea i knew u would back out of the protectionist state claim and fill some nonsense to make it seem like u replied about it.. ive seen it all - pls never debate or argue in real life cause the loss of face wont be worth it.

#214

Astroman77

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I LITERALLY refuted almost 99% of your misguided claims and your defense is: you didn't refute me! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. And once again you lose the argument because the first time Brazil won as the strongest league in the world was in 2021. THE DATA FROM THE LINK YOU SENT IS FROM..... 2021! (oh my god!) It's outdated. We're in 2023. For the second consecutive year, we are considered the strongest league in the world. Here's the current (https://www.iffhs.com/posts/2483). (No, I didn't refute you again).
"It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that I have been referring to wealthier western European leagues and not Eastern European countries that hardly qualify for the WC" - When you mention EUROPE, you automatically refer to ALL European countries. Without exception. You can't just select the good leagues and forget that there are horrible leagues just to reinforce some kind of argument. "Oh, but I didn't mean to refer to the bad leagues." Then don't use "Europe" as an example. You accuse me of doing what you yourself do - selecting what favors you. (No, I didn't refute you again).
"My comment on Aston Villa was in response to how you said big clubs like Real Madrid are an outlier to rest of the Europe -- Aston Villa stands nowhere near RM in terms of wages or trophies won but they spend as much as Flamengo says everything." - As I have mentioned before, Real Madrid is a giant club even by European club standards and averages. No other club is as big as Real Madrid, not even any other European giant. But still, Aston Villa is bigger than the average European club. That's the point. Flamengo earning just a little more than a Premier League club like Aston Villa really says it all. (Again, I didn't refute you.)
"What is there not to understand - 3 BR clubs in top 50 - that was the article I was referring to say BR spends nothing in comparison to other big EU leagues. They profit off the selling of their players but hardly invest anything to develop their own leagues." - Brazil doesn't spend anything compared to the big European leagues - correct. Brazil spends more than the average of all European leagues, including the bad ones - correct. The big European leagues don't represent the TRUE overall quality of football played in Europe. What we see on TV is just the good part of a few European countries, which don't even add up to 60% of all of Europe. The Brazilian league is currently the most competitive in the world, there is heavy investment, and that's why we're the country that exports the most football players, with a LARGE advantage over the others. The league is developed enough for a foreign scout to sign a Brazilian player and have no doubts about their quality. (I did not refute you again.)
"Well obviously football is not famous in USA, most people here dont care for the sport or the MLS - it is personal preference and if anything is a joke it is the fact that football is almost a religion in Brazil and yet they lose 7-1 in their home to a country with not even half their population." - It was indeed a shame for Brazil to lose 7-1, but currently, no one cares much about it. Especially because we are the best in the sport that is the most played in the world. If I had to choose between a) having the best team/selection in a sport that is only played in my country, with no global appeal and visibility compared to other sports, and b) having the best team/selection in the most watched and played sport in the world, even if it means suffering some embarrassment - I would obviously go with the second option. If population meant anything, China and India would dominate every sport they played, your argument of "the bigger the population, the higher the chances of the country succeeding in something" is ridiculous, and I can cite thousands of examples to refute this nonsense. You yourself know it's a weak argument.
"Not being xenophobic is definitely a quality" - No, it's not a quality. It's a law. Being prejudiced can get you in jail. Just like not being a murderer is not a quality. Not committing adultery is not a quality. Not stealing is not a quality. Acting like a minimally normal person is not a quality, it's something expected from everyone. You don't go around laughing at people with disabilities - without legs, without hearing, without sight - and not being prejudiced against these people is DEFINITELY not a quality. You're not going to applaud or praise someone who wasn't racist, because that's what's expected. It's not a quality. Your concepts about certain things are visibly wrong. (Another one for the list of 'you didn't refute me')
"You think oh my BR brothers are so talented that they cannot be ignored - that is not true" - Yes, it's true. And I sent a scientific study in the previous post that precisely proves this: the search of European clubs for foreign talents with the aim of surpassing their European rivals - since using only national players means not being competitive enough to aim for big titles. It's IMPOSSIBLE for a Brazilian talent not to be sought after by the biggest clubs in the world. You give opinions based on personal beliefs and completely evade reality. The funny thing is that most of these statements apply to the USA, where a possible American individual talent could be rejected because it is a country with a completely weak competitive league, questioning the true quality of the athlete in question.
"BR population - 200 million population and most of the populated european countries fall around 50-80M - none of them even half of yours yet they dominate in every sport/esport you play is just crazy." - Here you use the population parameter again, but you forget that Europe dominates e-sports using players from all European countries, without any exception regarding this. That is, you should take the population of Europe as an example, which is 746 million people. Very surprising that dozens of countries can surpass Brazil, right? If you want to compare countries with 50 or 80 million inhabitants, mention the COUNTRY in question and not the CONTINENT. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, and Turkey, for example, are countries that fit the example, but none of them individually can surpass Brazil in sports or e-sports. They can't even put together a team with only players from their own country.
"You comparing cities with whole countries shows another failed attempt to cherry pick and create false narrative."
- No, it's just an example of how it's possible to build competitive teams without having to resort to an entire region of almost 800 million inhabitants. Just as Brazil doesn't resort to its 200 million inhabitants - it's a comparison that apparently you were unable to understand. Kru and Leviatan are examples of how population doesn't influence the issue - having national teams to root for in a certain region/continent. Chile has 20 million inhabitants, which is smaller than the population of several European countries. And yet they managed to gather 2 good teams in LATAM, without resorting to the 450 million inhabitants of SA.
"My point is simple - you wont have local talent or local companies to support through your hard earned money or over the top cheering in every department." - No one buys products from a particular company with the intention of supporting it. Such thinking is that of a shareholder or investor, which has nothing to do with the subject. We buy out of necessity or to satisfy a desire. Absolutely no ordinary person spends their hard-earned money thinking about buying an item to "support the company." In a buyer/seller relationship, both benefit, both the entrepreneur (monetarily) and the consumer (acquiring a product/service). Your attempt to link this to SUPPORTING a team is so out of touch with reality that I don't even need to explain why.

#215

kskm

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wrong - i simply gave u an article to show u how they won it for the first time in 2021 and EU clubs have dominated over the years - this proves most EU clubs are stronger than BR + the fact that u havent researched how the ranking is done nor if it is an official authority on the subject or if there are other respectable orgs which have not ranked BR as the strongest - you pasted one link which seemed to support ur false narrative and went with it expecting not to be caught.
wrong - ur just braindead to assume i would be referring to countries like vatican city when i say EU, u were comparing BR teams to countries like Germany, Spain in previous posts and suddenly changed goalposts to include countries that dont give a fuck about football including USA to somehow score a goal - pathetic attempt to salvage debate points when the entire vlr thinks ur takes on this thread are aweful at best.
wrong - aston villa is the average EU club - again i aint talking about clubs representing vatican city. Flamengo 18th and 3 in top 50 is not even a good look so this refutes nothing but only proves my point.

wrong - u need education, have u graduated high school yet? read my post again and take some lessons in world history. there were times when being a racist was accepted, there were no laws against slave trade for an example and there were no anti-discriminatory laws preventing people from being racist/sexist etc and there are still countries where such laws dont exist.

wrong - ur point misses my entire argument, it does not matter how good Brazillians are at the game, if Europeans were racist/xenophobic they wouldnt care to include or let these guys in their country. They wouldnt care if it increases their competitiveness, there are several examples to prove this all over the world how people have not let diverse people to participate even when they know it adds to their competitiveness. Laws preventing discrimination didnt popout from the sky, they had to be fought for and it is always appreciable if someone is not racist/xenophobic because there were people who were not racist even when it wasnt a law. Big EU clubs letting Brazilians play in their league is sign of no xenophobia - which is appreciable irrespective of whether it is a law or not

wrong - Population is a pretty good metric simply cause more people means one has more choice to pick people from to make a team. Obviously countries like Vatican city cannot be compared with BR or expected to have any impact. So Germany for an example doing so good in Football with half the population of BR just shows the amount of work their people have put in to improve the culture surrounding the game. China and India play different sports - China has been very good in Olympics lately and India has been very good at Cricket - they also export alot of talent in various other fields like Technology which makes sense because they have alot of people. Also doesnt the current LOUD squad have saadhak and frod - two foreigners? are u currently forced to support Saadhak with ur flair? or even the American/Cuban FROD? that must be really sad.

wrong - u again miss the entire argument and feel like u have refuted something. when it comes to clubs it is normal to have people from various nationalities/different languages etc.. its not a national team, its not a World Cup. Germany or Spain in Valorant does not need to find 5 players to make a squad, if there was a world cup in Valorant, maybe they would create a roster with 5 and maybe they could 13-1 ur all BR squad too just like how u got 7-1'd. In the future maybe even LOUD might import players from the Americas region, just like they did with frod - go ask them why did they do that and if there are no other good coaches available in BR? Supporting foreign products hurts the local alternatives when it comes to trade - cheering for foreign players does not affect the local players who are not playing in the tournament.

#216

Astroman77

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Not wrong - I was the one who sent the website with statistical data, you just reused what I had already sent. And you tried to belittle it by saying "there are others that say the opposite", without even mentioning which other research institutes those are. IFFHS is the only one I know of that has recognition and approval from FIFA. The burden of proof is on the accuser. You used a lie, "it clearly says that Brazil won it for the first time in the history of IFFHS", to try to counter-argue, without even looking at the publication date to which the research was linked (a very amateur mistake). EU dominance for years does not change the fact that we currently have the strongest league in the world - THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS in the context. My argument in linking the website was simply to prove that. That we have the strongest league in the world. FACT. "Oh, and what about the other years?" - Read the first post again where I sent this link, it was used only to support a CURRENT fact. It's not a false narrative. It's conclusive proof that we currently have the strongest league in the world.
Not wrong - When anyone refers to Europe, it encompasses ALL European countries. It doesn't matter if I referred to Germany, France, Spain or any other country individually - which I don't remember doing. It doesn't change the fact that even the Vatican is part of the continent. And when we mention European leagues, we talk more about bad leagues than good ones. When you say EU, are you including the Vatican, or is it not part of Europe? There is no context in which it is not part of Europe. NONE. The USA was mentioned as a benchmark only twice - to show how pathetic the investment in football is compared to Brazil, and another to show that investing in sports that the vast majority of the world doesn't practice isn't very smart. An example not to be followed. People's opinions are just opinions, they are not absolute truths, it doesn't change anything at all.
Not wrong - Aston Villa is an ABOVE AVERAGE club in the European leagues. Do you even know how many European clubs there are? Research it. With a basic and quick calculation - with only 5 countries with weak leagues, we have at least 100 first division teams. None of them come close to that top 50. Now multiply that - there are at least THIRTY countries with weak European leagues. 30x20 = 600. Of these 600 first division clubs, none of them are in the top 50. 20 is the number of teams that make up the first division of any league, I imagine you know that. If we take the strongest leagues, which are: English, German, French, Spanish, and Italian -> 5x20 = 100. Of the top 50, only 3 clubs are not from the 5 strongest leagues in Europe. So, definitely Aston Villa and Flamengo, for example, are well above the European average. Not to mention that the Brazilian championship is the 6th most valuable in the world, second only to those 5 leagues mentioned above. (https://www.lance.com.br/lancebiz/as-20-ligas-nacionais-mais-valiosas-do-mundo-veja-levantamento-exclusivo-do-l.html)
Not wrong - In the past, cannibalism was also normal and acceptable among various indigenous peoples, marriage was arranged through families, and harassment was normalized. It was normal for women to not have the right to vote and many other things that nowadays are unimaginable. However, this does not change the fact that humans and society evolve and have evolved over time. Following evolution itself is not something that deserves praise and it is not even a quality, as it is a natural and continuous process of our history. The pursuit of progress and development is something that has driven us throughout the centuries. Therefore, not being prejudiced is something that is expected of a normal human being born in the 21st century.
Not wrong - If Europeans are racist and xenophobic, they will be punished for it, as these practices are not acceptable in a modern and developed society. It's like suggesting that if the US were anti-Semitic, they wouldn't support Israel. Or if Brazil were xenophobic, Frod wouldn't be on Loud's team. This is the minimum expected of any normal person - to not have prejudices and accept diversity. It's not an attitude to be praised and applauded. "Oh, you're so benevolent, thank you for accepting Saadhak and FroD, what an incredible virtue." This makes no sense in today's world. Having laws to prevent such practices is just a desire of society in agreement with the state. Stealing is punishable, not stealing is not something that deserves praise - it's expected. The rest of the premises are false because they are based on the false assertion that "not being prejudiced is commendable."
Not wrong - Success in sports is determined by a series of factors, and none of these factors include population size. Although a large population may increase the probability of having sporting talent, it is by no means a guarantee of success. India is a country with a population of 1.4 billion people and yet has fewer Olympic medals than many much less populous countries. This argument is completely unsustainable. You know that. You can even cite Brazil as an example - 220 million inhabitants and losing to several European countries in various sports. Having 2 foreigners doesn't make me not support the team. That's not even the point, which shows your inability to interpret and understand. I've already explained that.
Not wrong - Here you are arguing against a phantom. I didn't say it wasn't normal to have players from different nationalities on a team. I refuted your mistaken argument of wanting to compare a region of 750 million people with Brazil and saying, "look, there are countries with 50 and 80 million people, and Brazil with 200 million can't even compete, that's crazy." You're confusing the whole (Europe) with its parts (countries). It's not that Germany and Spain "don't need to find players to form a Valorant team," it's simply that there aren't 5 good enough German/Spanish talents to form a competitive team. Unlike in CS:GO, where there are BIG (German) and Movistar Riders (Spanish). The fact that EMEA teams are mostly made up of people from various countries isn't a choice like, "hmm, I want a diverse team without repeating nationalities," it's simply a natural process of gathering the best players in the European market, resulting in the teams we know. Perhaps in the future, there will be 5 good enough British players to form a competitive Valorant team and they'll beat an American team 13-0. Nowadays, there aren't. Here again you talk about "supporting" foreign products, as if anyone thinks about that when making a purchase (oh my god!), or worse, as if there's any correlation with rooting for players. This is one of the most stupid comparisons I've ever seen.

#217

kskm

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first 3 - wrong - ur just shifting goalposts to include weaker EU countries to somehow score a debate point when u compared BR with stronger EU countries in the thread and realized its a losing battle and changed how the definition of EU is supposed to be used. In your OP itself which u title "EMEA come" u accuse the entire EMEA of not having 5 players when this is not even true - BBL Esports is a Turkish team from EMEA which infact has even the coaching staff from Turkey - something not even LOUD has. This basically exposes u as a fraud who wants to exclude and include countries in EU as and when he pleases. the simple fact that most Brazilians flock to western EU leagues in football is enough to say it is better than BR. again - 3 in top 50 is not even a good look and only proves my point.

wrong - the fact we have anti-discriminatory laws says that it is not expected of people to act in a decent way. we need laws to enforce this behavior and yet it is hard to hold people accountable - there is a reason why FIFA keeps shouting say no to racism. this only proves my point that acting in a non-discriminatory manner is appreciable and we need to appreciate the fact that EU has matured enough to support people across diverse backgrounds

wrong - i never said population just means the said country will be the best in everything. i compared India in Cricket and China in Olympics - a very important distinction that i kept repeating that the said country should follow the sport. If you dont understand that different countries follow different sports and support them due to various factors like cultural differences then ur just braindead. Expect everyone to play football just cause its the most viewed is just braindead. I compared apples to apples when I said India has the richest Cricket leagues - a British colonial sport and then compared it with Brazil which does not have the richest football league. Here 2 underdeveloped countries with higher population are being compared. Again ur just shifting goalposts to compare apples with oranges.

wrong - u just exposed urself. why title the thread EMEA come and say Germany and Spain when the most succesful BR club currently has 2 foreigners.. why target specific countries for not having 5 players when the one u support doesnt have it either? u just got exposed for contradicting urself and yes its not a World cup so no there is no reason for them to have 5 players from the same country and when such a tournament is available I can bet these guys will own Br.

#218

Astroman77

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First 3: Not wrong - 1.1 I don't need to include the weaker EU countries in the discussion for the OBVIOUS FACT: THEY ARE ALREADY INCLUDED the moment we mention Europe. It's simple to understand. A continent is not only made up of top-tier countries, wanting to exclude everything that's bad is trying to convince oneself of a half-truth just to feed a false narrative. It's like talking about Rio de Janeiro and only mentioning the beautiful beaches, women, tourist attractions, nightclubs, and forgetting the dark side of the state.
1.2 When I say "EMEA COME," I'm referring to European teams formed by 5 foreigners - just read the content of the post - and there's no need to mention BBL because exceptions were clearly stated such as: Sweden (CS GO) and Denmark (CS GO) in their respective victorious eras, with their respective teams. The purpose of the thread is to know the feeling of Europeans who root for this specific type of team, made up of players with no cultural, national, and linguistic connection. Not those who have a national team because I already know how they feel, of course! Few were able to respond rationally, and the anger that a simple question caused in people is a sign that there's something unresolved about this topic. So I will continue to promote more and more debate on this subject in the forum.
1.3 The fact that Brazilians migrate to Europe is already a debated topic, and it's not enough to say that one region is better than the other because the second-largest population of foreigners in Brazil is Japanese - I can't say that Brazil is better than Japan (in whatever it may be) just by using the migration of Japanese as a argumentative foundation. There are several factors that must be taken into consideration. And speaking of football leagues: several foreigners play in Brazilian leagues, as I mentioned earlier, and this definitely doesn't lead us to the conclusion that "look, we have several foreigners here, which means that their league is weak, and ours is stronger" - wrong for 3 reasons: 1. As you well know, we currently have the strongest league in the world. 2. Europe is the region that imports the most foreign football players in the world; if it were Brazil, we couldn't say that Brazil is better for importing more. 3. They pay enough to convince any player to play in their leagues. These are the conclusions we can draw based on your statements, and in none of them can we say: "see? Europe is better!" Europe earns more than Brazil with football, considering only the 5 strongest leagues. On average - which obviously includes all European countries, it's leveled. The Brazilian championship is the 6th most profitable and valuable in the world, if you clicked on the link I sent, you know this. Everything beyond that is purely speculation and opinion.
1.4 Here you demonstrate not knowing the basics of mathematics. I told you that there are at least 30 European countries with horrible leagues - considering only the first division, in 30 weak leagues we have 600 teams! Europe is composed of 50 countries and some territories. The top 50 is made up of teams from the 5 strongest leagues. The 5 strongest leagues are made up of 100 teams. I left out 15 countries from this calculation, that is, 300 first division teams. In total (600+300+100) we have 1,000 teams, and ONLY 50 of them are in the top 50. That is to say: 50 of these teams earn more than the other 950! This is CLEARLY being above average. And it's no use saying "you didn't refute me" as if that were an argument. It's purely basic math.
Not wrong - "the fact we have anti-discriminatory laws says that it is not expected of people to act in a decent way" (?????????????) The main role of the law is to regulate human behavior. It justly punishes that which is not expected - the abnormal. It is not expected that someone would act outside of normalcy and steal, harass, kill, abuse, or rape someone, but if this happens (an EXCEPTION), the law will punish them for acting in an unnatural way, outside of what is expected of a normal and capable human being to live in society. We cannot expect everyone to have good faith and be good people, which is why there are laws. You are innocent until proven guilty, not "you are considered a suspect until proven otherwise" (my goodness, look where you're going to try to prove you're right!).
"there is a reason why FIFA keeps shouting say no to racism. this only proves my point that acting in a non-discriminatory manner is appreciable" - The reason why FIFA says "say no to racism" is purely PREVENTIVE, which is one of the functions of the law - to prevent and discourage possible future crimes. Many bars have some type of warning on the wall: "the sale of alcoholic beverages to persons under 18 years of age is prohibited" - precisely to fulfill this aforementioned function, seeking to discourage the sale of alcohol to minors and reduce the risks associated with early consumption of this substance. The preventive character of laws is essential for the safety and well-being of society as a whole, as it helps to avoid harmful behaviors, those considered abnormal and that deviate from the norm of what is expected! Traffic signs are other types of warnings that serve to prevent us from committing crimes. Acting to the contrary is to disrespect the laws - it is to act like someone who does not know the limits established by society/the State. No one is applauded for following laws. And that will never be a quality. It is just an empirical testimony of human evolution over time.
Not wrong - 1.1 You mentioned that population is a parameter that we can take into consideration when mentioning the success of a team, citing India (cricket) and China (Olympics). I responded by saying that it is not a parameter and cited India itself in other sports, based on Olympic medals, and Brazil. India being the best in cricket is something very specific. European, North American, and South American countries being better than India in any other sport, despite having a much smaller population, is something common and easily observable. Brazil not being the richest in football only proves that population does not interfere at all and India is an exception in a very specific area. You base your argumentation on exceptions and I base mine on what is more common and observable.
1.2 In an increasingly globalized world, individuals tend to follow the masses. People from different countries are increasingly following sports that the vast majority likes/watches and consuming more and more common content. The media has a fundamental role in this process, broadcasting sporting events and cultural programs worldwide, allowing people in different countries to engage and be influenced by the same tastes and trends. Expecting the vast majority not to play football, being the most watched, practiced, and shared sport in the world, through the internet, media, apps, companies, among others, is just braindead.
Not wrong - Here you completely lose your reasoning because I can mention Germany, Spain, UK, Italy, Norway, or any other EMEA team that does not have a lineup of at least 3 people from the same country. Did you expect me to mention all the other 48 European countries just to exemplify my point? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! For a team to have national representation, it is enough for only THREE members to have the same nationality. In the case of Loud, they could still have one more foreign player and still have a Brazilian core lineup. My argument is perfectly understandable, there should be no difficulties regarding that. You can be from the EMEA and support the EMEA, but it's not like you have a choice. Most of the time there won't be a team with national representation within the EU, specifically in Valorant.

#219

kskm

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book1 - wrong - ur title says EMEA come and gives example of exceptions in CS, not Valorant implying nobody in EMEA experiences the so called beautiful thing of cheering for ur nation. there arent 10000s of EMEA teams in the franchised world - there are 10 and 3 of them infact have more than 3 players of same nationality - Karmine Corp, FUT Esports, and BBL. So yes u did not do ur research on the topic and ur OP question was not sincere. Here you used EMEA - infact more than a continent to generalize but when i say EU u want me to include clubs from the vatican city to drive some stupid point. Hypocricy and idiocy is insane. again the same shit with football - ur best of the best play in the best of the best leagues in EUROPE not Brazil - the majority of them do - that just refutes any stupid unresearched links u paste to shift the goalpost and include countries that dont care about football.

book2 wrong - again the same shit, comparing oranges to apples. laws are not universal - they are different in different countries and even enforced differently. For example LGBTQ rights might be considered basic human rights and discrimination could go punished in some countries while in some countries it could be actively encouraged/discouraged by the state. Thus there is no universal definition of "abnormal" behavior. Another example : people from Pakistan and India are actively discouraged by both the countries to participate in sports, music etc. Usa ACTIVELY discourages people from hostile countries to immigrate and play in their sports or act in their movies. These are not exceptions, even if they are it is enough to counter any point made that suggests that there is anti-discriminatory laws that protect everyone everywhere. A European state can and will if they want to - actively discourage Brazilian players to play in their league without being held accountable for their actions. The fact that they dont do such stuff - is not bound by any law - for there is no such international law so it out of their benevolence that they do it and it should be appreciated. dont bring that stupid "oh it increases competitivenenes" argument again cause i already refuted it by saying historically people have discriminated against diversity EVEN if it means increase in competitiveness.

wrong - it is not specific rather an example how developing countries with lower overall budgets have defeated countries with more wealth in the sports they are passionate about. Just the fact that best cricket players from Europe and Australia and Americas go and play in India is an example of what could happen in Brazil with Football - a sport they are good at but fails to happen. China winning record medals every year is another example of a developing nation with lower budget to spend on Sports does something really spectacular. You bringing in the idea of washed tier 10 EU players playing in Brazil only further proves my point and shows that ur hell bent on shifting goalposts.

wrong and hypocritical - i already refuted this several times and shown 3/10 EMEA franchised teams have national lineups. There are 4/5 serious countries in Americas and 48 in EMEA so even if they have 3 core national lineups that is praise worthy.

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