The plays and calls were very questionable, tenz played badly but he was barely getting initiation utility from team especially on icebox like were they expecting tenz go kill strat to work???. I feel like sykko/deph is the current issue. Tenz seems like he cannot think for himself(horrible decision making when push comes to shove) and he needs to be guided by someone smart and deph isnt that person.
13
Is Deph a bad IGL and Is sykko a bad coach
posted in
General Discussion
Comments:
Threaded
Linear
greedeetv [#7]you can't outthink optic and tenz offday so it was never in the cards. sen team with a high ceiling low floor, they will suffer from inconsistency and that is not the fault of the coach or igl but the fault of the duelists/fraggers aka tenz and zekken
its the level of the strats were subpar and the team weren't cohesive because of it . This issue is definitely on the coach and IGL. in every peak tenz did there was barely supporting utility to make the odds on his side . It was mainly 1v1s which he lost due to offday. But its the teams ability to enable him which is based on strats etc and that wasnt happening making tenz snowball even worse
Kai__ [#10]they should try and get sgares or sliggy
Sean wouldn't want to coach and sliggh wouldnt be an upgrade from sykko
greedeetv [#15]y'all delusional for thinking dephh the problem im sorry. 3-15 in first bloods inexcusable, did you even watch some of the op shots. dephh ain't telling tenz what gunfights he has to take!
1 bad game and it's tenzs fault entirely for losing the game and for the poor veto
pumastone [#14]its the level of the strats were subpar and the team weren't cohesive because of it . This issue is definitely on the coach and IGL. in every peak tenz did there was barely supporting utility to make the odds on his side . It was mainly 1v1s which he lost due to offday. But its the teams ability to enable him which is based on strats etc and that wasnt happening making tenz snowball even worse
but that IS their whole strategy, to let tenz cook. look against 100t, it's an individualistic team, similar to loud! while i agree dephh doesn't necessarily fit their system, he is clearly not the problem
greedeetv [#15]y'all delusional for thinking dephh the problem im sorry. 3-15 in first bloods inexcusable, did you even watch some of the op shots. dephh ain't telling tenz what gunfights he has to take!
Tenz wasnt the entire issue, sure his confidence was shaken, but dephh was calling so bad that they were executing a site stacked with 4 players every time.
Cresp [#17]Sykko not bad, dephhh is just not good enough to win against fns.
Exactly, sykko can't come up with every single midround plan for dephh.
Dephh is such a mid igl it's crazy, he just doesn't belong on a tier 1 team, he was the weakness of xset
ItsHunter [#18]1 bad game and it's tenzs fault entirely for losing the game and for the poor veto
yes. you have to understand, consistency is important in this game. the team is reliant on tenz and zekken to frag, which leads to less consistency and poor losses, simple as that
ItsHunter [#18]1 bad game and it's tenzs fault entirely for losing the game and for the poor veto
tbf veto is the coach's issue
Cresp [#20]Tenz wasnt the entire issue, sure his confidence was shaken, but dephh was calling so bad that they were executing a site stacked with 4 players every time.
Tbf execing a site with 4 ppl was in no way dephhs fault other than the slow style. Fns just always has really good reads against predictable igls like dephh.
Fns only has a harder time calling when he's playing international
greedeetv [#22]yes. you have to understand, consistency is important in this game. the team is reliant on tenz and zekken to frag, which leads to less consistency and poor losses, simple as that
True we should be relying on something as uncontrollable as frags instead of relying on gameplan and actually vetoing for our good maps
Cresp [#20]Tenz wasnt the entire issue, sure his confidence was shaken, but dephh was calling so bad that they were executing a site stacked with 4 players every time.
it's because there was an overall lack of confidence from SEN and a lack of decisiveness that yes, in part stems from igl but mostly stems from a lack of frag ability on the specific map. tenz confidence shaken, they cant take sites quickly which allows for quicker rotates. look how many times someone from mid got all the way to gen on a site defense because of how slow the entries were taking space. especially on icebox where you don't have a specific way to initiate an entry with no flashes and a sova, it's on the duelist, not the strat
rishu004 [#23]tbf veto is the coach's issue
The coach isn't the one who vetos it's the igls. That's what I'm thinking abt, sykko wustve come up with some sort of veto plan but I can't imagine it being this bad. Sen dont have a huge pool so playing for their opponents'weakness in my eyes is the last thing they wanna do
ItsHunter [#24]Tbf execing a site with 4 ppl was in no way dephhs fault other than the slow style. Fns just always has really good reads against predictable igls like dephh.
Fns only has a harder time calling when he's playing international
Nah bro it is dephh fault, also sykko cuz they couldnt figure it out. Nrg was quickly reclearing every time they had some presence on the map, when they did this they stacked the site. Sen shouldve caught on and kept pressure on that side to break the drones or punish defensive pushes or they couldve insta commited to a site. Dephh pressures an extremity then goes back to spawn for 15 seconds with the team and then hits the opposite extemity.
greedeetv [#7]you can't outthink optic and tenz offday so it was never in the cards. sen team with a high ceiling low floor, they will suffer from inconsistency and that is not the fault of the coach or igl but the fault of the duelists/fraggers aka tenz and zekken
No I definitely think it's a huge fault of dephh. He isn't cut out to igl like this in the top tier, he can't midround well enough nor frag enough. Not cut out for tier 1
greedeetv [#19]but that IS their whole strategy, to let tenz cook. look against 100t, it's an individualistic team, similar to loud! while i agree dephh doesn't necessarily fit their system, he is clearly not the problem
You literally just stated why dephh was the problem and then proceeded to say "he isn't necessarily the problem"
Cresp [#29]Nah bro it is dephh fault, also sykko cuz they couldnt figure it out. Nrg was quickly reclearing every time they had some presence on the map, when they did this they stacked the site. Sen shouldve caught on and kept pressure on that side to break the drones or punish defensive pushes or they couldve insta commited to a site. Dephh pressures an extremity then goes back to spawn for 15 seconds with the team and then hits the opposite extemity.
I'm not saying dephh did good, I'm saying that specifically wasn't necessarily his fault. It wasn't his mistake but it was fns' adaptation
greedeetv [#27]it's because there was an overall lack of confidence from SEN and a lack of decisiveness that yes, in part stems from igl but mostly stems from a lack of frag ability on the specific map. tenz confidence shaken, they cant take sites quickly which allows for quicker rotates. look how many times someone from mid got all the way to gen on a site defense because of how slow the entries were taking space. especially on icebox where you don't have a specific way to initiate an entry with no flashes and a sova, it's on the duelist, not the strat
Bro weve seen good callers and teams do well when their entry was getting shut down. Koldamenta, Redgar they are able to create a system where they can win rounds despite having a duelist doing bad. These type of things where ur like “oh tenz had a bad game its his fault,” only really affect close games, if tenz was getting more kills in this game sen wouldve maybe gone ot or even won lotus but they would have not won icebox either way.
ItsHunter [#31]You literally just stated why dephh was the problem and then proceeded to say "he isn't necessarily the problem"
if tenz cant cook no igl can do anything. dephh not the problem
greedeetv [#27]it's because there was an overall lack of confidence from SEN and a lack of decisiveness that yes, in part stems from igl but mostly stems from a lack of frag ability on the specific map. tenz confidence shaken, they cant take sites quickly which allows for quicker rotates. look how many times someone from mid got all the way to gen on a site defense because of how slow the entries were taking space. especially on icebox where you don't have a specific way to initiate an entry with no flashes and a sova, it's on the duelist, not the strat
Let us continue to point out comp flaws and lack of teamwork and proceed to attribute the loss on the fact that the duelist didn't "just click heads"
Cresp [#34]Bro weve seen good callers and teams do well when their entry was getting shut down. Koldamenta, Redgar they are able to create a system where they can win rounds despite having a duelist doing bad. These type of things where ur like “oh tenz had a bad game its his fault,” only really affect close games, if tenz was getting more kills in this game sen wouldve maybe gone ot or even won lotus but they would have not won icebox either way.
well the systems from those igls are less individualistic as sen. sen is a "let them cook" type of team and rely less on util and more on timings and aim ability.
ItsHunter [#36]Let us continue to point out comp flaws and lack of teamwork and proceed to attribute the loss on the fact that the duelist didn't "just click heads"
yeah the lack of teamwork tho is the whole reason why they were playing successfully against 100t and its also the reason loud were so successful against nrg. for a player to just get a good timing was important to their success not the util or teamplay
greedeetv [#37]well the systems from those igls are less individualistic as sen. sen is a "let them cook" type of team and rely less on util and more on timings and aim ability.
This is why dephh is below the level of great igls that have gone much further. Its why xset had a horrible coppenhagen but a great champions, because this type of system is too inconsistent and must change.
greedeetv [#35]if tenz cant cook no igl can do anything. dephh not the problem
So many igls have been able to get around the fact that their duelist isn't fragging my guy that's why they're the best, hell even igls like koldamenta have done it time and time again.
Fragging is reliant on how you're feeling and that can't possibly be something you rely on. Dephh relies on that to have a good game where his players compensate for his lack of skill IGLing, the fault is on dephh for not being able to create an environment where a specific player doesn't always need to be on his a game.
No amount of fragging wouldve won Sen that icebox game, the lotus game is a bit more in tenzs hands
ItsHunter [#30]No I definitely think it's a huge fault of dephh. He isn't cut out to igl like this in the top tier, he can't midround well enough nor frag enough. Not cut out for tier 1
ok so the reason why sen suffers so much in terms of getting the first frag is dephhs fault
greedeetv [#38]yeah the lack of teamwork tho is the whole reason why they were playing successfully against 100t and its also the reason loud were so successful against nrg. for a player to just get a good timing was important to their success not the util or teamplay
Loud aren't the same at all. Loud have great adaptation and game plans that don't rely on their team fragging out but instead helps the team frag out, it's a huge difference.
Sen is a team that only does good and is only able to adapt when and only when their entire roster is fragging out which is a horrible model for consistency
greedeetv [#37]well the systems from those igls are less individualistic as sen. sen is a "let them cook" type of team and rely less on util and more on timings and aim ability.
THATS WXACTLY THE ISSUE 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
We've literally been saying that the style of team they are is an inconsistent one and it needs to change. Changing igls doesn't fix it but it sure as hell helps it as comparison to dephhs style where he can only do good when his team are compensating for the holes in his calls
ItsHunter [#41]So many igls have been able to get around the fact that their duelist isn't fragging my guy that's why they're the best, hell even igls like koldamenta have done it time and time again.
Fragging is reliant on how you're feeling and that can't possibly be something you rely on. Dephh relies on that to have a good game where his players compensate for his lack of skill IGLing, the fault is on dephh for not being able to create an environment where a specific player doesn't always need to be on his a game.
No amount of fragging wouldve won Sen that icebox game, the lotus game is a bit more in tenzs hands
the issue is the style of the team not dephh. the team is one that relies on timings and frag ability to succeed, just look at loud, it's not necessarily teamplay or util that allows them to succeed. if they aren't finding the picks or can't get the kills, it's just not happening no matter what igl you put in there because of the style of the team. tenz, zekken, pancada, sacy don't thrive in an organized system like the one you are describing
greedeetv [#45]the issue is the style of the team not dephh. the team is one that relies on timings and frag ability to succeed, just look at loud, it's not necessarily teamplay or util that allows them to succeed. if they aren't finding the picks or can't get the kills, it's just not happening no matter what igl you put in there because of the style of the team. tenz, zekken, pancada, sacy don't thrive in an organized system like the one you are describing
but the IGL and coach are responsible to make that work
ItsHunter [#44]THATS WXACTLY THE ISSUE 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
We've literally been saying that the style of team they are is an inconsistent one and it needs to change. Changing igls doesn't fix it but it sure as hell helps it as comparison to dephhs style where he can only do good when his team are compensating for the holes in his calls
so then they need to remove all the players but dephh lmao
greedeetv [#42]ok so the reason why sen suffers so much in terms of getting the first frag is dephhs fault
I never said anything about first blood. First bloods are something that comes much later down the line. They need to focus on execs and adaptation and plying comps that compliment their players, somehow Sen manage to do great and insanely poorly at this. Some maps are amazingly well thought out for each player and have good adaptation. Others like icebox have the shittiest comps with 0 adaptation at all and yet somehow is still let through sens veto
greedeetv [#45]the issue is the style of the team not dephh. the team is one that relies on timings and frag ability to succeed, just look at loud, it's not necessarily teamplay or util that allows them to succeed. if they aren't finding the picks or can't get the kills, it's just not happening no matter what igl you put in there because of the style of the team. tenz, zekken, pancada, sacy don't thrive in an organized system like the one you are describing
Why are you making all these claims that just aren't true? There is no player in the world that doesn't respond well to depth of play. Loud isn't an individualistic team, if you can't recognize that fact then we have nothing to argue about as you clearly have no idea what the first thing about teamplay is.
ItsHunter [#48]I never said anything about first blood. First bloods are something that comes much later down the line. They need to focus on execs and adaptation and plying comps that compliment their players, somehow Sen manage to do great and insanely poorly at this. Some maps are amazingly well thought out for each player and have good adaptation. Others like icebox have the shittiest comps with 0 adaptation at all and yet somehow is still let through sens veto
they picked icebox cuz its an aim reliant map that lets their aim talent shine, no? also cuz they thought optic's comp that is more reliant on util and spacing would get picked apart
ItsHunter [#49]Why are you making all these claims that just aren't true? There is no player in the world that doesn't respond well to depth of play. Loud isn't an individualistic team, if you can't recognize that fact then we have nothing to argue about as you clearly have no idea what the first thing about teamplay is.
brother ive been an IGL and coach for 3 years in valorant, im immortal 4 accounts and an initiator player (oh btw my iq is 140), if you want to make outlandish claims you can.
greedeetv [#51]brother ive been an IGL and coach for 3 years in valorant, im immortal 4 accounts and an initiator player (oh btw my iq is 140), if you want to make outlandish claims you can.
HAHAHAHA NO WAY BRO FLEXED HIS IQ
greedeetv [#47]so then they need to remove all the players but dephh lmao
or.... hear me out don't panic. replace the IGL
Kandinsky [#56]The "shit" igl and "shit" coach made top 5 at Champions and lost to a igl and coach that finished 2nd at Champions.
Its not rocket science, NRG are just better.
Its the type of loss, we looking at how the game was played seems like if thats all you got from the games then you haven't watched it all. Go and watch pancadas interview , all the role changes were because of deph to make his life easier which ultimately screwed them
Ullyr [#5]Xset was carried by chamber meta.
wasnt even that good of a team, had one good showing on champs
Discord