Viper is too much of a mainstay on many maps, and have been for too long. This change is just like the skye nerf that allowed Geeko to be meta. I think teams are more likely to play clove now and run double controller with viper clove. Would be fun to watch
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Viper nerf is GOOD
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1 they literally just added clove my guy.
2 you sound like you don't play smokes.
viper is team dependent. But she always has been even before this change. Omen is not remotely team dependent unless you're shit at him. Hes got more solo play-making potential than every sentinel and half the initiators.
If anything I'd say harbor needs a buff. The issue with that is him in combination with viper sucks.
clove aint gettin picked. shes fine for solo q but lacks the util needed for pro. Shes basically reyna for smokes. To get her unique bonuses you need to plan on having her die. Thats a bad plan for pro. For solo q its ok since your team probably isnt gonna trade you perfectly and you will have games where you need to entry as smokes.
She wont replace omen/(occasionally)astra and for pro theres no scenario where double smokes would result in anyone other than harbor or viper.
many teams aren't going to spend time learning a new agent and creating new strats for new comps with these week by week games, which is a big reason why many new agents aren't being picked. Clove's ability to throw a decay mixed with any damaging util (shock dart, nade, molly, etc) can create kills without even seeing opponents, which is the best type of kill because there is no risk. Once teams have time I am sure they will be able to cook up comps with clove in it.
You also do not have to plan on having her die to use her kit. That is just a perk of playing clove. All of her util is usable while she is alive.
Do you know that cloves decay is limited by time, that is it explodes mid air if you use it as a lineup. Also omens flash will always be far better than cloves decay anyday.
For ex: if someone is playing behind generator in ascent how are you going to clear it with clove which can assist your duelist to get a kill. You have to go in the open and throw the decay which might not even hit given its weird mechanics. But a omen flash clears both the door and the generator at the same time and gives you a very good advantage if someone is playing there. The cloves decay also doesn't stop site hits unlike omen flash.
there are literally already lineup videos on youtube you can go watch. You don't have to throw something in the air across map for it to be a lineup. Obviously clove won't be the top meta pick. Reyna isn't and she has been picked multiple times. I'm saying I would like to see her in a game, and that it wouldn't be a complete throw, like an iso per say.
My message literally said "I would love to see a clove", not "clove is going to be the meta #1 pick"
Again in my post you are replying to I said it would be great combo'd with other util. Paired with any damage util and the decay is better at stopping a site hit then the omen blind. If they are decayed and take even a bit of damage from a KJ molly for example, they're dead. Same with bombs, shock darts, you name it.
many teams aren't going to spend time learning a new agent and creating new strats for new comps with these week by week games, which is a big reason why many new agents aren't being picked
a new agent not being picked can be because they are new. however saying that the only reason she isnt picked is because of she is new is dumb. ISO still isn't picked is it because hes new? Neon hardly gets picked and we know she's such a new agent.
Clove's ability to throw a decay mixed with any damaging util (shock dart, nade, molly, etc) can create kills without even seeing opponents, which is the best type of kill because there is no risk
It is objectively worse than a fade seize or practically any other ability that causes decay. The jank introduced by requiring line of sight to cause the decay inherently makes it less consistent of an ability than practically any ability in the game. This jank also means winging a clove decay/other util combo is inherently less consistent.
Best example is ascent A. If the team planted in front of gen, which is extremely common, then the decay practically has to hit directly on the spike for it to be effective. If it hits in front of the spike there's a huge chance it will just miss because LOS is broken by the elevation. Compare this to a viper molly, brim molly, etc.
Regardless when you're picking clove you're giving up such major util for no reason. Omen blind is the single strongest blind in the game. Viper util is global and devastatingly effective at dividing up large space. Even brim molly is a more consistent and universal tool than the clove decay. She objectively has the weakest util out of any controller.
You also do not have to plan on having her die to use her kit
To have her value exceed that of other smoke agents you do. Her kit is clearly balanced around the idea that she is going to be taking first fights and dying. That's why she has a heal. That's why she can res on death. That's why she can smoke after death. That is the entire conception of the agent. The reason her util is weaker than the other smoke agents is because she can still smoke after death. This is a dumb thing to build a game-plan around.
if you're gonna type this much why not read what I actually typed? No shit im not saying agents are only picked based on how long they've been in the game??? There is a reason you didn't quote me saying that and it's cause I never said it. I literally went on to write it takes teams extra time they do not have to create strats and comps including new agents.
I'll just say everything I said again because you don't like to read.t does not require line of site. Go look it up on youtube random people have already made util lineups. Clove's decay has a large splash zone. It will not be ww3 to create a lineup like you are implying.
If she is dead she can't heal. Clove can do more alive then when they are dead. Again with you not reading, as I said before, being able to use clove's abilities after death is a perk. On top of all this Clove's smokes regenerate. She can throw out more smokes a round than any other agent. That alone is a situation where their kit exceeds other smoke agents.
if you're gonna type this much why not read what I actually typed? No shit im not saying agents are only picked based on how long they've been in the game??? There is a reason you didn't quote me saying that and it's cause I never said it. I literally went on to write it takes teams extra time they do not have to create strats and comps including new agents.
Are you daft? Do you understand the English language? Replying to a comment saying that clove isn't going to get picked with "well shes a new agent so teams aren't picking her" clearly implies that the only reason clove isn't being played is because shes new. I literally even agreed and said the fact that she is newer may be a slight factor. Ironically you're doing exactly what you say I'm doing. You look desperate dude.
.t does not require line of site
It literally does. How do you not even know the mechanics of an agent you like? You're an idiot.
Go look it up on youtube random people have already made util lineups
All of which have the q explode within line of sight of the target. This is embarrassing dude you should stop.
Clove's decay has a large splash zone
*if the opponent is within line of sight :)
It will not be ww3 to create a lineup like you are implying
Never said it was you're attempting to exaggerate my point (that clove has objectively the worst decay ability in the game) in order to make yourself look less delusional.
If she is dead she can't heal
No shit Sherlock. If you're picking her for her heal then you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far gone to be reasoned with.
Clove can do more alive then when they are dead
While objectively true, this misses the entire point I was making. She is balanced around having impact after death. Because she can still smoke after death the abilities she can use while still alive are weaker. If you gave omen her smoke after death ability he would be busted. She isn't busted because her other util (heal and decay) are absolute horseshit compared to every other controller in the game.
Again with you not reading, as I said before, being able to use clove's abilities after death is a perk
This is ironic because I literally said this. You're scrambling son. Keep intentionally misinterpreting my words.
On top of all this Clove's smokes regenerate. She can throw out more smokes a round than any other agent.
Her smokes have the same cooldown as Omen's... They also don't last as long. How stupid can you be? You literally need to invent another agent entirely for them to even be ok.
That alone is a situation where their kit exceeds other smoke agents
No. Unless the other smoke agent dies before using any of their util (not something any team on the planet plans for) this does not put her above the other smokers. She sucks at taking space compared to viper and omen. She sucks at holding space compared to viper and omen. Hell, she's even worse at taking fights than omen since none of her util actually helps her take the fight. Her ability to smoke after death is the aspect of her kit that makes up for her dogshit util. Unfortunately, since this is pro-play no team is going to sacrifice the ability to take space for the potential to maybe trade a kill and then maybe take the site and then maybe stall the post plant long enough for a second round of smokes. Any team would just pick omen and use the blind to take site an option that is simultaneously SAFER AND MORE EFFECTIVE.
Ironic you kept saying I don't know how to read while not know basic mechanics of your agent and intentionally misinterpreting what I was saying 🤭
I guess a direct point-by-point response is now ignoring what someone said 🤷♂️. Oh well we both know you're just running away because I exposed the fact you don't know basic mechanics about how clove's kit works which completely negates your argument. Not surprising I'd be embarrassed too if I were you.
Viper is too much of a mainstay on many maps
the issue is the reason she's a mainstay on half the maps she gets played on (breeze icebox bind lotus) is because of the map geometry heavily favoring the wall. The nerfs aren't going to affect her pick rate on maps like that. It will lower her pick rate on maps like split and ascent but she isn't exactly a mainstay on those. The changes are ok but they'll just lead to less dynamic viper play on the maps where she is a mainstay.
For pro play, yes definitely if an agent has numbers that make peak chamber look balanced, yeah she needs nerfs
However unlike Jett and chamber who were and still are top 5 in terms of ranked pick rate, viper is not that popular in ranked, at the time of this thread viper is the least picked controller besides harbour and her win rate isn't much better either, just look at astra for an example of what will happen, her pick rate wasn't great even at her peak, and now she's even worse, and Viper is even more niche than astra
Besides in most games below ascendant, PPL still have no idea how to play with or against a 2nd controller viper, i can't remember how many times I've gotten flamed for picking viper on a map that wasn't icebox or breeze or for throwing supposedly "troll walls" on those maps, hell even on Breeze or icebox 50% of the time I see An omen or clove on the other team and the only reason we have a viper is cause i main the bitch Harder than most diamond Jett mains💀.
While I will admit she's still op in ranked when played as 2nd controller, i will not dispute that, however riot are once again making the same mistake they made with Jett and chamber, Nerfing everything other than the OP part of the kit, with viper that would be the unpredictability and map influence of her wall, Nerfing the wall imo is the only way viper can be reasonably nerfed
Overall imo this patch is a failure that will not change how viper is played in pro play for the most part, but will absolutely gut her ranked viability
Riot are digging their own grave with the tools that sent overwatch and rainbow six six feet under, and as someone who was a fan of both eSports in the past, it's beyond frustrating
What you and everyone else seems to keep forgetting and not addressing is that Valorant is not only made up of pro players playing VCT or game changers or scrimming. Its made up of a ton of ranked players and streamers and new players just having fun.
These nerfs don't just impact the pro scene (who have been running double smokes for a looong time so it doesn't matter they switch to harbor,viper or omen viper or astra,viper) but it impacts one of the lowest picked controller agents in the game after harbor (and even after astra in Immortal and radiant).
This nerf ruins a lot of the fun of playing the agent in ranked as viper is just not viable as a solo smokes and not even fun to play in general. In my opinion as an Asc2 controller player (except Harbor, which I might main now lmao) who mains Viper this nerf was not needed in ranked play at all but instead just made another agent unplayable and un-enjoyable in ranked.
Thank rito games.
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