ptrlol
Flag: United States
Registered: September 13, 2022
Last post: October 11, 2022 at 4:30 PM
Posts: 69
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it doesn't have a animation going back to it's default position, instead it snaps back in an unpolished way further

This is not true at all. If the turret looks too far left or right toward its adjacent sides, it will reset to default position once enemies go out of its sight. You can test it yourself... And this had to have been manually coded for the turret to function like this.

It's like arguing about the function of music, I say it's function is to energise you while you claim it's function is too relax.

This is not the argument at all... We are arguing the reliability of the turret and whether its function was meant to be reliable. In other words, all I'm arguing is that it's not necessary for the turret to directly shoot at the players - that all it matters in terms of information is the brief window when the turrets gets alerted/triggered it will look toward the enemy's direction, such as Cypher ult - while you are arguing it is necessary for the turret to shoot at the enemies. The burden of proof/evidence is stricter for you than it is for me. And it is not difficult to provide evidence for my case either: all I have to point out is how the turrets are, in fact, dodgeable; that if its intention were to reliably shoot directly at its enemies, then the developers could have made the turret shoot an undodgeable beam of light, yet they didn't. A more appropriate analogy would be as if you argued music must be at a certain volume range for it to be qualified as music, while I'm arguing that music can be qualified at any volume so long as sound is produced. It's not an either/or case then since my perspective also allows your view within mine.

you still haven't given me a simple definition that includes one but not the other

I've provided the definition? Let me restate it: For a bug worthy of replay, there should be no room for interpretation of the item's intended functionality, while in other cases, there are room for interpretation.

posted about 2 years ago

If I sat some random person down who has never seen Valorant to tell me what happens when an enemy turns a corner that the turret is watching

A random person wouldn't know the mechanics of a KJ turret while every player and coach would have known how the turret works, so your argument is null. Yes, it is true that the current design of the turret doesn't quite match the description that Riot had provided, but does that make it a bug? Additionally, is it a bug worthy of replay?

The problem is that this turret "bug" was a feature of the game ever since beta and it simply has been how the turret worked. You can't just assert it's outside the realm of possibilities when I explained how it is within it... to put it simply, the turret repositioned to its initial position when it deactivated mid-burst.

It would be as if ever since Chamber came out, his trips didn't show a range, but the trips deactivated once Chamber walked 50 paces away from it. Furthermore, it doesn't state in the description for the trip that Chamber must anchor his trip in order for it to remain active, such as the alarmbot, turret, etc. Chamber players simply knew about this feature through trial and error, and have worked out that they must stay within ~50 paces for it to remain active due to their game knowledge. Then, suddenly, after 2 years, Riot just claims that that's actually a bug in the middle of a major tournament. You think that's justified?

Even if we claim it is a "bug," it's something that Riot had neglected and had become a feature of the game. It would be ridiculous to, then, fault a team in a tournament for Riot's mistake, especially when everyone knew about the "bug." Notice how XSET members want NOTHING to do with Riot's decision? That's because anyone with decent game knowledge knew that this was within the possibility for how the turret functioned. Riot should have fixed this "bug" in the next patch update instead of faulting FPX for simply jiggle peeking a turret.

posted about 2 years ago

Just because something is abused in the higher ranks doesn't make it 'intended', people in higher ranks abuse cypher cams yet we would still say these are

This doesn't make sense. To abuse something is for you to methodically prep and repeat an action. Yet, in order for this "bug" to work would be if the KJ mistakenly puts the turret that oversees 2 chokepoint and one of the chokepoint is at the edge of the turret's range. Then, a player just jiggle peeks it. What I meant was in the higher ranks, it just happens naturally - the turret acts janky because there are features of the turret that make this happen sometimes so it isn't 100% reliable for information.

I do not think, not shooting at where the enemy was seen adds any value to the game.

But it only shoots at a player if that player is in the open. If the player has some movement where s/he finds coverage in between shots, then the turret won't shoot at the player necessarily but it will get triggered which is still information. And like I said, if the function of the turret is to reliably shoot at players - which is basically like a sova dart that also deals damage - then how it was coded seems to contradict that. The turret should never reposition and/or the turret should not be dodgeable mid burst as these functions contradict the reliablility of a turret to shoot at someone. It makes sense to think in lieu of the damage the turret potentially provides, it also won't be 100% reliable for information or that it shoots directly at someone. It's only in the lower ELOs where people walk out in the open and shoot at turrets while standing still that a turret functions as "intended" then.

I clearly disagree with your idea of what is the essence of the turret is, therefore how can we ever come to a conclusion on what is and isn't a bug using our beliefs on what is and isn't the essence of the object.

I mean, I'm not just saying, "Just trust me, bro." I'm dileneating my reasoning and providing evidence. In other words, I'm providing justifications for my perspective. There are 2 things you can do: you can just reject my view without any justification or try to challenge it by contradicting what I said using evidence. The former doesn't really help in providing a meaningful discussion, while the latter does.

posted about 2 years ago

None of the examples you've provided are quite appropriately analogous to what happened. You are providing examples outside the realm of possibilities, but what happened with the turret is quite repeatable and within the realm of possibilities given how the turret functions normally. A better analogy would be like if Neon dash bypassed the Chamber trip or something, where we're questioning the function of the utility and if there are circumstances where it cannot act as if it's supposed to.

posted about 2 years ago

I'm probably dumb for being baited by the same troll again, but w.e.
Let's just use real examples: what is the difference between a turret shooting in a completely different direction, presumably at nobody vs. two people taking the ropes in Fracture and one of them falling off?

The answer is whether the effect (that is, falling off the map or the turret shooting at no one) matches any potentiality or possibility within the function of the object. In this case, the object is the rope and the turret. It's trivial to see why the rope would be classified as a "bug" that is acceptable for replay. This is because taking the rope has no intended function for you to fall off of it whatsoever. The turret is different because its essence is supposed to be unreliable to an extent. All a turrent's job is to fire when someone enter its range; it did that for Angel. Furthermore, there is nothing within the turret's design that guarantees it hits someone or shoots directly at them (you can always dodge its shots and hide). Coupled that with the turrent repositioning itself if it looks too far or too left, then all it means is that the turret will shoot (notice that I didn't write "shoot at") when someone enters its vicinity.

In summary, the difference is there is no room for interpretation why the physics of the game would allow players falling off the rope to their demise, cypher to put cams outside of the game's boundary, Jett to superdash if she jumps in a corner at a particular angle, or being able to see through Viper smokes. There is room for interpretation, however, whether a turret getting "triggered by" someone vs "shooting at" someone is the same thing. As an Immortal ex-KJ main (before Chamber), I've always assumed the essence of the turret is that it would necessarily be triggered when someone enters its domain, but not that it would necessarily shoot at someone. Otherwise, the turret almost never functions as it was "intended" in the higher levels, especially where there are a lot of jiggle peeks and Omen teleports.

posted about 2 years ago

So you're just going to ignore the fact of how ridiculous it is to claim players are abusing a bug for jiggle peeking a turret?
How many times must I repeat myself? I wrote down MULTIPLE TIMES how the turret acted is a natural manifestation of its coding. Istg, this will be my final time.

Is it a natural mechanism for the turret to always shoot 3 burst shots if it fires its first shot - even if the enemies are out its sight in between shots? Yes.
Is it a natural mechanism for the turret to miss its shots if the enemy finds cover? Yes.
Is it a natural mechanism for the turret to reposition if the enemies get out of sight when the turret is looking too left or too right from its initial position? Yes.
Then how the fuck is it NOT a natural manifestation for the turret to reposition as it is missing its shots (from the enemy), given how it was coded???
edit:grammar

posted about 2 years ago

Thanks, I appreciate you for taking the time to actually read what I wrote.

posted about 2 years ago

I'm not saying the bug was coded? Wtf are you on about?
I'm saying the features of the turret is what Riot coded, and the supposed "bug" is a natural manifestation of the coding. I already said, jiggle peeking the turrent when it stands adjacent to you after it shoots its first shot will quite literally replicate what happened. So, anytime a player jiggle peeks a turret, he or she risks abusing a "bug?" That's laughable in so many levels. It's not even analogous to the Jett dash because you need to be methodical on where and how you dash, unlike jiggle peeking a firing turret, which is a natural response...

They held FPX responsible by having the match replayed after winning. Despite the fact that everyone knew this was a possibility.

posted about 2 years ago

No, a better analogy would be like if Fade used a prowler which broke a Cypher trip and Riot started saying that that's a bug.

The onus is on Riot to make the features of their game to match their vision better than for players to predict what is and is not permitted by Riot without any context. Since this is now classified as a "bug," any time a player jiggle peeks a turret looking adjacent to that said player after it fires its first shot would be considered "abusing a bug" as it would literally replicate what happened in the tournament, which is the ridiculous predicament we're in right now. Anytime a player can't jiggle peek a shooting turret suggests it's not the players' fault but the game maker's...

posted about 2 years ago

Dude... no one in this thread has provided a single argument that that turret "bug" was a bug except for saying Riot said so or by giving vague statements, so still appeals to authority. And what I'm saying is not voodoo science, it's quite literally testable: go into customs with a friend, play in practice mode, or play KJ for a while and you'll realize these are just the regular mechanics of the turret. It's just that, in this instance, 2 unreliable features of the turret triggered simulatenously which gave a "bug-like" response, but it's not a bug.
If this were a bug, you quite literally can't jiggle peek a turret that's standing adjecent to you since it will continue to replicate what happened in the tourney. And for Riot to blame FPX for that is EXTREMELY foolish since it's what they coded.

posted about 2 years ago

Just relying on your argument because Riot said so is called appeals to authority, and that's a fallacy. I'm not disputing the fact that there was a replay or the fact that Riot is able to make their own decisions in their tournament. What I am doing is questioning their judgment. Just as if Riot can come up and say Grim walls are a bug, no one or at least I am not disputing that they can't do that; I'm saying that doesn't mean it's justified or it's logical.

posted about 2 years ago

I've already explained why in my reply to blizzard. The 3 shot burst fire from the turret is not absolute, as it is trivial to dodge the turret - just jiggle peek a turret after it fires its first shot. Furthermore, if the turret looks too left or right, it repositions. These are features of the turret everyone, with some game knowledge, knew about in the game, just like using a Grim wall, and players had to work around it. It is, then, illogical for Riot to claim it is a bug, much like how it would be illogical to say Grim walls are a bug since it has been a feature of the game for 2 years now.

posted about 2 years ago

Instead of giving vague responses, such as it's an "unintended mechancism," why don't you explain clearly how it is a bug?
How do we know what's intended or not given this feature of the turret is pretty common knowledge and players have worked around it. It would be as if Riot, all of a sudden, demanded Grim walls are a bug as it was an "unintended mechanic" despite the fact that people have used it for 2 years and there aren't any features to deter users from doing it.
I've also provided a more thorough explanation to blizzard on why the turret mechanic isn't a "bug."

posted about 2 years ago

No, that's not a bug. A bug is an unintended response where it defies the regular physics or properties of the game, e.g., a physical wall can be glitched into. KJ's turret was not like this. KJ's turret has specific properties that also makes it unreliable in certain cases, e.g., if a turret sees an opponent it won't shoot them 3 times absolutely as there is a delay for not only each burst shot, but the moment the turret is alerted. Furthermore, once the enemies go out of sight/range, the turret repositions itself. What happened was that the turret repositioned itself mid-burst, which is a culmination of 2 properties that the turret already had. How can you say that's a bug? If you are unfamiliar with KJ mechanics, hop into practice with bots or enter customs with a friend.

If you use KJ turret beyond 1 chokepoint for direct info, you are overrelying on it. KJ turrent isn't and wasn't intended to be the most reliable information util due to aforementioned. That's why if you want 100% information, put your turret on flank or a single chokepoint and ensure your enemies can't bypass its sight via smokes or tp.

posted about 2 years ago

Any KJ main should be able to tell you that the mechanism of the turret allows for things like this to happen since: a) it ALWAYS shoots 3 bursts and b) it repositions once enemies are out of sight. Why don't YOU explain how it's a bug given how the turret was scripted and my expanation for what happened, instead of using ad hominems and insisting it's a bug just because Riot claimed it was.

posted about 2 years ago

What a braindead response.
If I see a large video game company make such an egregious decision officially, I'm going to make an account to complain about it. This is the first time I've seen something like this happen in the Val tourny scene, which is why I made my account today...
edit: grammar

posted about 2 years ago

Haven't seen how the teams have responded, so I'll take your word for it. I'm glad both sides have acknowledged this was a bs decision. Riot needs a firm explanation.

posted about 2 years ago

Can you read before calling someone a retard?
I'm arguing that this mechanism of KJ turret has always been part of the game so it's incredibly unprofessional of Riot to try to "address" this 2 years after the fact in an important tournament. KJ players have went around this by having the turret focus on 1 chokepoint to not give confusing info, such as what happened in this game.

posted about 2 years ago

Clearly kj fked up by overrelying on turret to check for 2 chokepoints (garden and heaven)...

Also any kj player knows that the turret has a slight delay upon identifying and shooting the player and has a 3 shot burst. Omen was identified, but as soon as he was identified, he ran behind a wall, so the turret shot its 1st shot at that wall then repositioned to its normal placement and finished its 2 shot burst. Then, Omen swung and destroyed kj turret during its delay. It was just incredible timing by Omen and poor turret placement by KJ. How the hell was that a bug? If this was, indeed, a bug, then KJ's turret needs a complete rework as it worked as it had always intended... I think someone on Riot was just a huge fan of Xset and/or Riot wanted to push the DRX vs. Xset rivalry so the arbiters gave biased judgments in favor Xset. Either way, this was not cool at all. Fortunately, the proper victor won in the end.

posted about 2 years ago
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